PDA

View Full Version : First fake autograph



64SHEA
12-21-2013, 05:47 PM
I recently bought a signed poster from another collector (not on this site) and it came back as not authentic. I have already emailed the seller to let him know I would like a refund and to ship it back to him. This is the first time I have had an autograph come back as not authentic and I think that the seller should pay for the authentication fee since they sold the item as authentic. Can someone who has been in this situation tell me if that's normal practice or if I am going to have to fight with the guy to get my money?

EricTheRed44
12-21-2013, 06:03 PM
I would think a refund would be obvious but the authentication fee would probably be on you. I do not have any knowledge on the subject, but it was an option of yours to have it authenticated. Once its yours, any financial choices you make would be on you. Unfortunate though, sorry about your luck. If he had multiple auto's available that were all fake, then I think you may have options... but if its just one auto that maybe he was sold, then I'd think you'd be out of luck.

ChiGuy1
12-21-2013, 06:54 PM
In my experience, unless the seller says they will refund authentication fees it is on you for those fees. That's why its best to come up with those terms up front. Say someone gets an in person autograph and it doesn't pass, they know it is real, and they shouldn't have to pay for authentication fees.

Roady
12-21-2013, 08:37 PM
In my experience, unless the seller says they will refund authentication fees it is on you for those fees. That's why its best to come up with those terms up front. Say someone gets an in person autograph and it doesn't pass, they know it is real, and they shouldn't have to pay for authentication fees.
I have to agree.
Proving it is real or not is not an exact science.

RMoody
12-21-2013, 09:48 PM
I'd be interested to have you elaborate in this just a bit, if you didn't mind.

Why would you bid on an item if you had any doubts?

As a collector, does a 3rd party authentication matter?

Now, just my side of that is I don't plan on selling much so a 3rd party "guess" doesn't effect me at all.

For what it's worth, 3rd parties are just that. You either saw it signed or you didn't, it's that simple because that's the only way to know for sure. Anything else is pure speculation, and what matters most is YOURS because its in your collection.

If its something you wanted in your collection, I'd ask you reconsider your stance, especially if its a unique item.

I had a eBay buyer go to a 3rd party who will remain nameless. They returned the item as "not likely genuine". However, the clincher is quite simple. The athlete in question I've worked with for 5 years. I've got a stack of 50 blank 8x10s, all signed.

When I contacted the authenticator I asked them about the "exemplar" they were using? Zero response. I ended up getting the athlete to write a letter to the buyer citing the authenticity of the signature. He advised me he tried to forward that letter to the vendor and demand a refund. They canned him a response saying you pay for an opinion and that's what you got.

After all that, the buyer finally let it go and kept the piece. Meanwhile a credible authentication "company" was confronted by an agent for an athlete and did zero about it.

64SHEA
12-22-2013, 12:09 AM
This was not a item from ebay, I bought it from another collector. There are few autos that I can tell if there likely authentic or not such as Wright or Beltran since I deal with there autos a lot but I would still not advise someone to buy an item on my opinion. In either case this was a space item, a new area I recently started collecting in. If you feel you can authenticate every auto you buy that's great but to me 3rd party authentication is very important, so long as they are a reputable company. Also having someone whose job is to study autos look at your item isn't speculation. While getting my physics degree I took a class in handwriting analysis and I can tell you if done properly it is a true science. If anything forming the foundation of an autos authentication based an what the seller tells you would greatly depend on your trust of the person and is still, without evidence, conjecture at best. I understand the only way to be 100% sure is to see every item in your collection signed in person but unless I win the lottery tomorrow its not possible for me to fly to every autograph event. On the same note since I have a limited amount of money I can spend on my hobby I will not buy an item if I can not be almost certain it is authentic. There is to many authentic items out there to have something on your wall with questionable authenticate.

Back to my original questions do you think it would be different since the seller said he guaranteed it would pass authentication?

cfern023
12-22-2013, 01:50 AM
Not to come across as rude, but you have no way of forcing him to pay for anything other than a refund......AND even then if it was too long ago even your Card Company may tell you to pound sand.

Heck, even if he put 1000% money back guarantee- I don't think you have a leg to stand on. You can sue, you will win- but at what cost? You may end up having to serve him in his municipality, you may have to hire a lawyer, and you may even have to prove further that it's not authentic by getting multiple opinions. One mans opinion isn't the word of God.

Be happy if you get a refund.

64SHEA
12-22-2013, 02:50 AM
I paid with paypal and it came from overseas so I have 180 days to file a dispute. The seller also mailed it directly to the authenticator and they just received it a couple of days ago.

While it may just be "one mans opinion" he is a higly respected authenticator in this field and the sellers claim itself without evadince is just one mans opinion. Why should I be happy if I just get a refund, I paid for an item advertized as authentic.

I understand that many people on here may know and trust each other or have great knowledge in there area of collecting but I didn't realize there was such a (as it seems) disdain for 3rd party authenticators on this forum.

EricTheRed44
12-22-2013, 10:42 AM
I have very few items that are autographed (Id rather have a photo taken with someone than something written on a piece of paper or item), but if I sold you something with an auto that turned out to be fake, when I got it from someone else, I'd give you a refund but that would be all. If you asked for $ for other things you had done, I would tell you to take a hike. Or track down the original owner... etc. If the person you're dealing with has hundreds or thousands of auto's and its a scam, then by all means go for it and sue. If its just a collector who possibly purchased a fake auto himself by chance, then I'd chalk it up as a bad experience and move on. I wouldnt see why it should cost him anymore cash than a refund.

If I purchased an auto and it was fake, I would take responsibility myself for being fooled and move on... especially if the seller gave me refund for the item in question.

Its the risk you take when collecting.

RMoody
12-22-2013, 12:38 PM
I wouldn't say it's distain, it's track record and a long list of errors. They equally have zero accountability, lets say your seller responded to your email with "Here is a photo of him signing the item, I forgot to include it for privacy reasons." You think they will now refund you the money and certify your item, would you want them too?

Bear in mind , not every "authentication" company has to employ a person with a background in handwriting. Even when they do, such as Chris Morales , mistakes can still get made.

Pretty sure we have all seen PSA authenticated items from James Spence, that JSA later declined as non authentic.

Take a good look at what happened with GAI early on, they basically certified anything just to increase market place visibility.

Hopefuly what you should be taking from this is a 3rd party's opinion isn't worth as much as you may think. It makes no difference to me when buying, and I put down around 900-1k down a month in collecting. Truth be told, I've not bid on stuff with GAI Certs before.

If I had the time and money I would sit down with my buddy, record him signing things and then send them in awaiting them to come back "likely not genuine". Then record him opening the results and seeing somebody else tell him what he didn't sign.

64SHEA
12-22-2013, 02:13 PM
The way you describe them is the definition of disdain.
If the seller had a photo of the poster being signed this whole thing would be moot. It seems like you think no one out there is selling fakes or trying to be deceptive. If you can authenticate every thing you buy your self that's great but I cant, I guess your just a better collector then I.

I started out simply asking a question of people who may have been in a situation I haven't but maybe of my own fault the subject seems to have shifted.
Never mind.
Take care

RMoody
12-22-2013, 03:01 PM
Well that's not what I said at all, but ok.

I gave you my, as did others, personal experience based on the situation.

If you want my direct answer, your lucky to get a refund especially if your looking to utilize a 180 day window on a refund.

At the end of the day, you bought what he sold and you got what you expected. Thats the end of the transaction.

You opted to go involve a 3rd party and then allowed that opinion to change your mind about what you purchased to the point you don't want it. Your out that money, because you made that decision.

If the seller had a track record of fraud, if he shipped you something other than pictured its another story.

Personally I wouldn't refund your money.

Griffey24fan
12-22-2013, 04:39 PM
Why don't you post the autograph in question for some on the board to give you an educated opinion. PSA fails real autographs all the time.

earlywynnfan
12-22-2013, 05:14 PM
The way you describe them is the definition of disdain.
If the seller had a photo of the poster being signed this whole thing would be moot. It seems like you think no one out there is selling fakes or trying to be deceptive. If you can authenticate every thing you buy your self that's great but I cant, I guess your just a better collector then I.

I started out simply asking a question of people who may have been in a situation I haven't but maybe of my own fault the subject seems to have shifted.
Never mind.
Take care

Are you saying this seller is "selling fakes or trying to be deceptive," or did he sell you something he believes in?

Either way, the choice to get it authenticated was yours. Over the last six summers of heavy selling, I've had two items fail a major authenticator. I refunded the money immediately, but did not refund the authentication fees. (Nor was I asked to, nor was I expected to.)

I understand being frustrated, but as I read over your posts, it seems to me you had strong feelings one way, and seem to be disappointed that the group doesn't agree.

Ken

RMoody
12-22-2013, 05:24 PM
Are you saying this seller is "selling fakes or trying to be deceptive," or did he sell you something he believes in?

Either way, the choice to get it authenticated was yours. Over the last six summers of heavy selling, I've had two items fail a major authenticator. I refunded the money immediately, but did not refund the authentication fees. (Nor was I asked to, nor was I expected to.)

I understand being frustrated, but as I read over your posts, it seems to me you had strong feelings one way, and seem to be disappointed that the group doesn't agree.

Ken



I actually meant to bring this us, the fake the title of this thread is "first fake autograph" really can't overstate the thought process here.

I agree with Griffey24fan, let see the item in question. Also, lets see the response of the person who is being accused of selling fake signatures.

64SHEA
12-22-2013, 05:36 PM
Are you saying this seller is "selling fakes or trying to be deceptive," or did he sell you something he believes in?


I am not saying that but I have never dealt with this guy before.




I understand being frustrated, but as I read over your posts, it seems to me you had strong feelings one way, and seem to be disappointed that the group doesn't agree.

Ken

Again not at all, in fact if you read my posts I kept trying to steer the topic back to my original question in which I stated I have never had an auto come back as not authentic (seller or buyer) and just wanted to know if it was them norm to ask the seller to pay the authentication fee, that's it. If you read the responses up till RMoody's post they were answering that question. Any fustrtion came from RMoody who almost seems upset that I cant authenticate the item myself and I dared to send it to an authenticator. I had no idea it would turn into this or I wouldn't have even asked.

64SHEA
12-22-2013, 05:41 PM
Why don't you post the autograph in question for some on the board to give you an educated opinion. PSA fails real autographs all the time.

Like I said the poster is signed by astronauts and lesser known ones at that. It was not sent to PSA it was sent to a highly respected authenticator in the space field.

Roady
12-22-2013, 08:43 PM
You have a degree in physics?

64SHEA
12-22-2013, 09:24 PM
You have a degree in physics?

Yes, why?

Roady
12-22-2013, 10:17 PM
Well, Having a physics degree one would assume you would be highly proficient at problem solving and have the ability to solve challenges by thinking creatively. A physics degree also gives you a grounding in advanced mathematics.

I guess I can't understand your reluctance to accept your peers suggestions.
One who is highly proficient at problem solving would assume that getting the same answer from everyone would mean something more than they are picking on me.
Your advanced mathematical skills should come in handy when 100% of the responses are more or less the same. Now the sample size may be small but when developing a hypothesis within the sample size it would point to you being unable to accept others opinions that differ from your own preconceived notions.
I also have a hard time understanding why you seem able to accept at 100% an opinion by a 3rd party when your physics degree should have taught you that to have a 100% success rate in any field would be an anomaly.

64SHEA
12-22-2013, 11:12 PM
Really?
I don't know what to say anymore.
As I have said over and over all It wanted to know is if it was the norm or not to ask the seller for the authentication fees, especially considering they said they guaranteed it would pass. I don't know what you mean by
One who is highly proficient at problem solving would assume that getting the same answer from everyone would mean something more than they are picking on me. The first two people answered my question, if Mr Moody had never posted I would have said thanks for the advice that would have been that and this thread would have lived in obscurity never to be posted in again. It seems as though your and Mr Moody's point was that I shouldn't have even sent it to an authenticator in the first place. Physics degree or not I don't trust that I can and would say I definitely cant authenticate most autographs myself. 100% of one party's opinion is better then 100% of no ones opinion. I am not sure how everyone else feels but you two have been quite clear in your opinions so I guess then I should just stop collecting autographs sell my stuff and start collecting beanie babies or something.

RMoody
12-22-2013, 11:32 PM
Alot of confusion seems to be rooted in a lot of what your saying.

Nobody here claiming they "authenticate" everything they own. Just like nobody is telling you to stop collecting. It's also pretty childish when your provided answers you clearly don't want to hear to just assume that's what people are saying.

Personally, I find this particular situation a microcosm of where the community is heading. Place yourself in the sellers situation here.

You bought an item the seller guaranteed authentic. You made an educated (highly educated considering your degree) opinion the piece was authentic and the seller was genuine. You received the exact item you purchased.

So as I originally asked, where does doubt creep in? How do you get to the point where your sending this item off to be "authenticated"?

Apart from that, what exactly was shown to you to prove it was not a genuine autograph?

Listen, I get asking for people help on items when your not sure. I did that myself on this very forum two weeks ago.

Your bringing up a sensitive topic for alot of us, because your essentially letting another persons opinion mean more than yours and the sellers word. Clearly based on the topic and your response, you now have zero doubt this item is fake. Thats quite a change of stance, in a short timeframe.

As I reiterated to you, if you had something tangible to start the doubt , its a different story. Seller kept selling similar items, had a stockpile of them, got caught with fakes, sold you a different item....tons of things.

You also said this was signed by multiple people, so did all signatures fail or just one?

In closing, the beanie babies market has dried up in the past few years. I would suggest you take a good look at this site if your serious in moving in that field,

http://www.barrysbeanies.com/generic32.html

I work with a woman who collects them and just a ruthless of a field.

cfern023
12-22-2013, 11:44 PM
Like I said the poster is signed by astronauts and lesser known ones at that. It was not sent to PSA it was sent to a highly respected authenticator in the space field.

You sent it to an authenticator in the space field?

Please, tell me his qualifications? I'd take other random peoples word with exemplars over his any day.

cfern023
12-22-2013, 11:49 PM
Might I ask as well---

If this a poster with autographs from lesser known astronauts, you have to ask yourself if it is profitable to sell their signatures over a more popular space walker.

I can fake a autographed ball of 12 players from the 1998 Marlins, but what would be the point. I can just as easily fake one of the 1997 Marlins Game 7 starting lineup and make alot more money.

64SHEA
12-23-2013, 12:37 AM
I don't know where the confusion is, I asked a question, the first two people answered it that was that. I didn't even bring any of this up.
Now I am childish because I am basing my response off what you said?


For what it's worth, 3rd parties are just that. You either saw it signed or you didn't, it's that simple because that's the only way to know for sure. Anything else is pure speculation, and what matters most is YOURS because its in your collection.
I wouldn't say it's distain, it's track record and a long list of errors. They equally have zero accountability
Bear in mind , not every "authentication" company has to employ a person with a background in handwriting. Even when they do, such as Chris Morales , mistakes can still get made. Then tell me what your meant by that? What I took from it is authentication company's make mistakes are unreliable and should be avoided. So there not trust worthy but I can rely on random people I meet on a forum.

I didn't make an educated guess. I saw an item I had been looking for, asked if it was authenticated he said no but guaranteed it would pass authentication.
In any case why do you keep bringing up my degree, how does that increase my ability to spot a fake autograph?

Where does doubt creep in? When I bought an autograph from someone I have never met over the Internet. Place yourself in the buyers situation here.
I think I have said twice already the seller shipped it directly to the authenticator.

He said it had too many atypical traits and formation issues.
I understand to get a refund you should need some proof but if there is ANY doubt the same sort of question should be asked of the seller. What exactly was shown to prove it was a genuine autograph?



Your bringing up a sensitive topic for a lot of us, because your essentially letting another persons opinion mean more than yours and the sellers word. What are you doing, trying to insist your opinion is right and mine is wrong.
The sellers not my buddy from down the street he's a guy from the other side of the world. So I should trust him but not someone recommended to me by other space collectors?

Yes all the signatures failed.

It seems this all really comes down to someones personal level of trust. You may be fine trusting your instinct, forum members, and even the seller but I'm not. You say my own opinion should matter most well in my opinion my best chance of getting as close to certain as possible was sending it to an authenticator.

Also the statement at the end of my last post was a hyperbole.

64SHEA
12-23-2013, 12:41 AM
You sent it to an authenticator in the space field?

Please, tell me his qualifications? I'd take other random peoples word with exemplars over his any day.

I should have been more clear, he is an authenticate of space related autographs.

64SHEA
12-23-2013, 12:44 AM
Might I ask as well---

If this a poster with autographs from lesser known astronauts, you have to ask yourself if it is profitable to sell their signatures over a more popular space walker.

I can fake a autographed ball of 12 players from the 1998 Marlins, but what would be the point. I can just as easily fake one of the 1997 Marlins Game 7 starting lineup and make alot more money.

Without looking it up can you name all 24 men who have been too the moon? Outside of Armstrong, Aldrin, and maybe Young almost all astronauts are unknown to the none enthusiast yet even the most unknow sell for at least $100.

64SHEA
12-23-2013, 01:08 AM
I didn't want to post this because once again it had nothing to do with my question but I contacted the seller and he responded before I even posted this thread. He said while he was surprised he wouldn't question the opinion of the authenticator. I also received the refund before he even replied.

I always wondered how someone gets dragged into a back and forth like this but I understand now.
Again I guess this is my fault for asking a question.

I'm done with this BS. Close the thread, delete it, print it out and hang it above you mantle for all I care. I truly enjoy coming on this site when I get home from work to see whats going on and have had nothing but good dealings with members in relation to game used items but I guess I have learned my lesson. Don't ask a question in the autograph thread unless you willing to blindly accepted the opinion of certain members about a topic that wasn't even part of your question.

In the words of Mick Foley
Have a nice day!

RMoody
12-23-2013, 01:10 AM
I think I have said twice already the seller shipped it directly to the authenticator.

He said it had too many atypical traits and formation issues.

Yes all the signatures failed.

It seems this all really comes down to someones personal level of trust. You may be fine trusting your instinct, forum members, and even the seller but I'm not. You say my own opinion should matter most well in my opinion my best chance of getting as close to certain as possible was sending it to an authenticator.


Maybe I missed that part, but you sure didn't make it emphatically clear.

Your now saying you purchased an item, had the SELLER mail that to a authentication company? You then paid the authenication fee and the item was then shipped to YOU with a rejection letter?

I don't even know how to respond to that to be quite honest.

How arrogant would a seller need to be to send a straight forgery to a authentication company. Apart from that, why would they then ship that known fake item to you, not return it to the seller or try to mediate the situation.

Like I said from the beginning the facts your just coming out with page 3 should have been made post #1.

While I still don't trust a majority of authentication company's, you bought something very uniformed apperantly. If he mailed the item to the authentication for you, you should due back everything, including fees. I'm not sure I have ever heard of a situation like that before.

64SHEA
12-23-2013, 01:50 AM
I truly get it now.


Maybe I missed that part, but you sure didn't make it emphatically clear.
Your now saying you purchased an item, had the SELLER mail that to a authentication company?

From my third post


I paid with paypal and it came from overseas so I have 180 days to file a dispute. The seller also mailed it directly to the authenticator and they just received it a couple of days ago.



You then paid the authenication fee and the item was then shipped to YOU with a rejection letter?

I don't even know how to respond to that to be quite honest.

How arrogant would a seller need to be to send a straight forgery to a authentication company. Apart from that, why would they then ship that known fake item to you, not return it to the seller or try to mediate the situation. I never said they sent it back to me, they still have it and we are both waiting on the seller who said he would get back to me when he decides what he wants done with it. I also don't know how the sellers knowledge of its authenticity without proof directly affects its actually authenticity.



Like I said from the beginning the facts your just coming out with page 3 should have been made post #1.No, that and any other of this information should not have been said in post #1, it has nothing to do with my question. Did you even read my original post? I had one simple question, has anyone had an item come back as not authentic and if so did you ask the seller to pay the fees, that's it that's all I asked. Your the one who posted ignoring my question basically asking me why the hell I would even think of sending anything to an authenticator.



I always wondered how someone gets dragged into a back and forth like this but I understand now.
Again I guess this is my fault for asking a question.

I'm done with this BS. Close the thread, delete it, print it out and hang it above you mantle for all I care. I truly enjoy coming on this site when I get home from work to see whats going on and have had nothing but good dealings with members in relation to game used items but I guess I have learned my lesson. Don't ask a question in the autograph thread unless you willing to blindly accepted the opinion of certain members about a topic that wasn't even part of your question.

In the words of Mick Foley
Have a nice day!

I cant be sucked back into this again my time is to valuable. Responded if you feel you must but I will never look at this thread again. If someone feels they have something of value to add they can pm me.

RMoody
12-23-2013, 05:52 AM
I recently bought a signed poster from another collector (not on this site) and it came back as not authentic. I have already emailed the seller to let him know I would like a refund and to ship it back to him. This is the first time I have had an autograph come back as not authentic and I think that the seller should pay for the authentication fee since they sold the item as authentic. Can someone who has been in this situation tell me if that's normal practice or if I am going to have to fight with the guy to get my money?

For arguments sake, this is your original post.

Show me where this clearly says you don't even have the poster in question? Because the way I'm reading it, "I would like a refund and to ship it back to him" implies you have possession of the item.

You close with asking for suggestions from those in the situation. I'm pretty sure you got responses from people from a buyer and seller perspective.

Along the way, you have been pretty reluctant to take anybody's advice. You continually kept defending yourself rather than assume some responsibility for your purchase.

You still haven't made it clear what the seller guaranteed, only that they said it was authentic. I'll reiterate to you, since you discussed with the seller and had him send it on your behalf to authentication, the he should refund atleast part of your fees.

Bear in mind I'm not calling myself a better collector or telling you to take up beanie baby hunting but try to never do that again. From the outside, you bought an item way over your head regardless of how bad you wanted it. Historically, you put yourself in a position people get burned.

Roady
12-23-2013, 10:10 AM
Really?
I don't know what to say anymore.
As I have said over and over all It wanted to know is if it was the norm or not to ask the seller for the authentication fees, especially considering they said they guaranteed it would pass. I don't know what you mean by The first two people answered my question, if Mr Moody had never posted I would have said thanks for the advice that would have been that and this thread would have lived in obscurity never to be posted in again. It seems as though your and Mr Moody's point was that I shouldn't have even sent it to an authenticator in the first place. Physics degree or not I don't trust that I can and would say I definitely cant authenticate most autographs myself. 100% of one party's opinion is better then 100% of no ones opinion. I am not sure how everyone else feels but you two have been quite clear in your opinions so I guess then I should just stop collecting autographs sell my stuff and start collecting beanie babies or something.
That is not my point at all.
My point was simply that nobody can be expected to be 100% correct when authenticating autographs.
You declared the auto as fake, even though you really don't know if it is, simply based off another fallible persons opinion.
All of your peers tried to point this out to you. You became defensive and here we are.
This thread may not have gone in the direction you wanted it to and it may have veered from your original question but anyone with a physics degree should know that you have to assume that variables will evidently come up. Not many things in life go according to plan.

As in the Scots poem by Robert Burns,

The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men
Gang aft agley

paraphrased -The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.

sportsnbikes
12-28-2013, 05:40 PM
I paid with paypal and it came from overseas so I have 180 days to file a dispute. The seller also mailed it directly to the authenticator and they just received it a couple of days ago.

While it may just be "one mans opinion" he is a higly respected authenticator in this field and the sellers claim itself without evadince is just one mans opinion. Why should I be happy if I just get a refund, I paid for an item advertized as authentic.

I understand that many people on here may know and trust each other or have great knowledge in there area of collecting but I didn't realize there was such a (as it seems) disdain for 3rd party authenticators on this forum.

Me personally I do not trust any 3rd party company. I have had several items obtained in person that were deemed as not genuine. On the reverse, forged items have been authenticated as genuine. There are several examples out there of both of these.

As I've stated before and others have as well, how many 'experts' are actually working at these authentication companies? How can the 'experts' possibly be looking at every single piece of equipment that comes through their doors? They must have hundreds of experts.

Just because a company says it's not real doesn't mean it isn't. The same goes for the reverse. I wouldn't trust any of them. Their COA's aren't worth the paper they are printed on. I like to use this site to reference some of the fraudulent autographs that have been authenticated.

Bottom line is that if I don't get an autograph myself or authenticated by an IN-PERSON authentication such as Steiner or MLB, I will never truly know if it is real or not.