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kingjammy24
12-14-2006, 02:31 PM
once in a blue moon, i'll find a bat that i want to pick up and, not knowing much about bats, find that a million questions pop up about the very nature of authenticating bats. mike specht once said something to the effect that bat authenticating is pretty much just interpreting the LVS records. i have to think it's much more than that though. for those of you who are "bat people", here are my questions:

- when authenticating an LVS gamer, paramount importance seems to be placed on how well it matches the LVS records in terms of model, length, weight, and finish. unfortunately, there are tens of thousands of bats on the market that don't have LVS entries. how do you go about determining the proper model, length, weight, and finish for a player that has no LVS record?

- in a best case scenario, let's say you're working with known records and have a bat that matches the model, length, weight, and finish that the player was known to have used. that's only half the battle though isn't it? buyers don't simply want a game-issued bat, they want to know it was used by that player. given that players regularly use other players' bats, it may not be so easy to say that a certain bo jackson model bat, for example, was actually used by jackson and not kevin seitzer. players don't always put their numbers on the knob. so let's say you've got a 1989 bo jackson bat that properly matches the model, length, weight, and finish. unfortunately, bo didn't put his number on the knob. so how can you say the bat was used by jackson and not by another teammate that tried his bat out? from what i gather, the answer is that you look for player use characteristics such as how the handle is prepped, pine tar application, where the ball marks are, etc. while relying on specific player use characteristics makes perfect sense to me, here's the question i have:
authenticators like taube or bushing must've authenticated thousands of bats in their day; everyone from heine manush to pete rose to kevin seitzer to julio lugo. question: even if you manage to work with a bat that matches the LVS records, how can any authenticator be familiar with the unique and subtle player use characteristics of tens of thousands of players over a 50+ year time frame? just think of all the bats sent to taube and bushing. how can they possibly know the player use characteristics of every one of them?

the other day, a mcgwire jersey was discussed and howard wolf and mark weimerskirch mentioned that mcgwire always had 2" of length added on his A's jerseys. they know this because they're mcgwire collectors. i had no clue. it's completely outside of my niche. i guarantee there isn't a single individual on this planet that knows the jersey customizations of every mlb ballplayer for the past 50 yrs.

so let's say that a 1987 LVS george bell is sent to a bat authenticator and much to their delight it matches the LVS records. is it at all realistic to think that they're familiar enough with george bell's specific use characteristics to then attribute the bat as being used by bell instead of one of his teammates? i have to think it's impossible. it's one thing to be familiar with the use characteristics of someone like mantle or pujols. unfortunately, most bats aren't a mantle or a pujols. i just don't see how someone like taube or bushing can be familiar with the use characteristics of all of the bats that are sent to them. if i'm right and they aren't familiar with them, then how can they properly authenticate them?

thanks in advance,

rudy.

richpick
12-14-2006, 03:15 PM
"so how can you say the bat was used by jackson and not by another teammate that tried his bat out? from what i gather, the answer is that you look for player use characteristics such as how the handle is prepped, pine tar application, where the ball marks are, etc."

Rudy, I do not understand your statement about "where the ball marks are". What do you mean by this? As hitting is not an exact science and even Ted Williams swung at bad pitches and fouled off many pitches how does where the ball marks constitute use by an individual player?

kingjammy24
12-14-2006, 03:26 PM
hi rich,

what i've gathered from the bat folks is that, apparently, the placement of the ballmarks will help discern whether the hitter who used the bat was a right or lefthanded batter. as well, it seems that many batters will always hold the bat with the label facing a certain direction. this results in the ballmarks usually being concentrated in a specific area on the bat. these 2 traits could help either support or disprove use by a specific player on a specific bat.

to be honest, i've personally never quite understood it and would love for some bat experts to explain it to me in detail.

see here: http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/thread/1111332067/

rudy.

richpick
12-14-2006, 04:03 PM
Rudy,

Thanks that makes a lot of sense. I know in this hobby it is very hard to absolutely guarantee any item. Unfortunately, crooks have the same access to information as collectors and can doctor an item to look like a player used the item. I agree with you though that bats (unlike jerseys) are used sometimes by other teamates. Thanks for the answer everytime I get clarification of a question it makes me a more knowledgeable and smarter collector.

Richard

MSpecht
12-14-2006, 09:26 PM
Hi Rudy --

You raise some good questions and are quite correct -- unless you actually see a player use the actual bat you are getting for your collection (or, these days, have an exact photo match) , you cannot be 100% positive about any bat. With that being said, however, bat authenticators do have a number of "tools" to work with, and can either increase the probability or decrease the possibility that an individual player used a specific bat. Here are a few of the considerations-

1. Professional labeling -- If a bat does not have professional labeling, the liklihood that it was ever used professionally is very very very slim. I was told, in one instance when a seller was attempting to sell a Yaz retail bat as game used, he claimed that all of the Red Sox bats were stolen out of the visitor's clubhouse in Anaheim (Pug ?) and the Sox equipment mgr made a quick trip to a sporting goods store and bought a bunch of bats off the floor to get the team through the series. Well, come on now ...

Basically if a bat does not have professional labeling, it should not be accepted as an authentic game used pro bat. That may cause you to miss out on a bat or two from thew early part of the century, but it's a good rule to live by.

2. Documented factory records -- In the case where authenticators have access to a player's personal factory records (99 % of the time H & B), those records will permit a reasoned opinion to be formed regarding the models, lengths, weights, finishes, etc that a player ordered/was shipped/used during a specific period of time. If a bat matches existing documented factory records, that increases the possibility that the player used that bat. Note: this spills over to bats from different manufactures -- throughout H & B records you see where H & B made a model for a player off of, say, an Adirondack bat that the player sent in to H & B. The geometry of the two bats will therefore be the same, and it is likely that the player used that model Adirondack as well as the newly made H & B model. As a general rule, players do not substiancially vary their preferences as to weight and length between manufacturers.

3. Professional game use characteristics -- There are several types of game use that are closely associated with professional game use, most notably the use on the bat caused by impact with the ball, such as indentations, seam marks, deadwood, etc... These characteristics are more difficult to fake than, say, cleat marks on the barrel, a specific tape pattern, etc because, after all, there is a reason that professional ball players are pro ball players and we are not.

4. Individual player characteristics -- You are correct that no single person has a catalog of thousands of pro players personal characteristics in their head. But, there are perple who study specific players and have handled many bats that have purportedly been used by that player and therefore can give an informed opinion when comparisons are made, authenticators and non-authenticators as well. There are people on the GUU forum, for instance, with very specific info on Ripken, Jr bats, McGwire bats, Winfield bats, Boggs bats, Gwynn bats, and others. Also, more and more information is available through the dedicated work of people such as those who contribute to this forum. As an example, the information that Jeff scott distributes relative to Cardinals bats is invaluable http://webpages.charter.net/birdbats/Birdbats/Bat%20Use%202006.htm (http://webpages.charter.net/birdbats/Birdbats/Bat%20Use%202006.htm) especially the notes at the bottom of the page.

Basically, Rudy, here's the deal. Until very recently only a small handful of people have had access to any significant amount of H & B player's factory records. To my knowledge, the only ones in that group that are doing authentications of game used bats are Vince Malta and John Taube (PSA/DNA), Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen (MEARS), and myself (BATS). Understand this -- there are major auction houses who either do their own authentications or use 'authenticators' that do not have access to any factory records. What is their starting point in the process -- figuring that if a bat is kind of round and made of wood it matches factory records ? To be sure, having factory records does not mean all authenticators treat their craft equally, but it does provide a starting point that gives those few a significant advantage over the others. From that point, individual differences between authenticators come into play.

Basically, the difference between authenticators is along a line of conservative to liberal, or stated another way, "why it is" rather than "why couldn't it be." If you are a seller, you may want the most liberal authenticator out there to send your bats to for an opinion. A buyer would likely want to go in the other, more conservative, direction before opening his wallet.

The differences have been shown pretty clearly in the following three threads :

1) the 32 1/4 inch Tris Speaker bat (conservative -- "It is 1 3/4 inches shorter than any documented record of Speaker bats that exist including shipping records, index bat diagrams, and H & B display bat" vs. liberal --" Edd Roush used a 33 inch bat during that era so it is possible that Tris Speaker used a 32 1/4 inch bat during the same period.")
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=4019&highlight=tris+speaker (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=4019&highlight=tris+speaker)


2) the Mickey Mantle bat (conservative - "there is no documented shipping record for that label period that shows Mantle's order of that model, length, and weight, thus it does not match factory records " vs. liberal - "Mantle ordered that model early in his career, and ordered bats of that length during portions of his career, and bats of that weight at timres in his career, so in our opinion that constitutes a match of factory records" ) http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=5464 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=5464)

and 3) Pre-1930 Factory records ( conservative - "there are individual shipment orders -- sometimes up to 48 for each individual player that has been accessed, including all Hall of Fame players-- that are documented and they should be taken into account during the authentication process" vs. liberal "we do not consider any documentation pre-1930 to be factory records) http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=5363 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=5363)

As always, the best course of action for a collector is to research as much as possible, look closely at how and why an authenticator arrived at a certain opinion regarding a specific bat, then determine your own personal comfort level when considering your own personal research and the authenticator's opinion.

Good Luck

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

kingjammy24
12-15-2006, 02:44 PM
mike,

thanks very much for the great response. i was hoping you and jim would comment in this thread. i think you'd agree that a paramount portion of every single bat authentication is the analysis of use characteristics. a question regarding this issue remains for me.

"4. Individual player characteristics -- You are correct that no single person has a catalog of thousands of pro players personal characteristics in their head. But, there are perple who study specific players and have handled many bats that have purportedly been used by that player and therefore can give an informed opinion when comparisons are made, authenticators and non-authenticators as well. There are people on the GUU forum, for instance, with very specific info on Ripken, Jr bats, McGwire bats, Winfield bats, Boggs bats, Gwynn bats, and others. Also, more and more information is available through the dedicated work of people such as those who contribute to this forum."

i have no doubt that the use characteristics of superstar HOF'ers such as ripken, winfield, boggs, and gwynn has been well-documented and is readily available. however, i have to think that over the course of a year, a prolific professional authenticator such as bushing or taube handles more than just superstar HOF'ers. i imagine there are tons of bobby bonillas and kenny loftons thrown in there. here's my question: while i recognize that you, taube, and bushing have different philsophies and leanings, i have to think that you all follow a very similar general pattern when it comes to authenticating a bat. you all try to determine whether the length, weight, model, finish, and label are correct and you all try to judge the use characteristics. when you're not dealing with a well-documented superstar, what do you do in terms of judging the use characteristics?when you're looking at, let's say, a 1990 bobby bonilla bat that displays great legit use but unfortunately has no number on the knob?
there is no great source of documentation for bonilla like there is for boggs, ripken or even pujols. so what do you do? you're holding the bat, all of the technical specs match up, and you've gone on to analyzing the use characteristics in order to be able to attribute the bat to bonilla instead of one of his teammates. as a professional bat authenticator, what would you do?

rudy.

metsbats
12-15-2006, 06:34 PM
Rudy,

I have bats of many non-hof players primarily of Met players.

Many of the things that have helped me learn about the characteristics of player bats are: watching games and observing what players are using in a game, studying yearbook photos and baseball cards, asking dealers and other collectors. By doing all these things I've learn to stay away from certain bats which I may suspect as not been used by that player named on the barrel.

For example

- Todd Zeile used Galen LV sluggers with criss cross taped on the handles
- Edgardo Alfonzo taped all handles of his gamers in the non-criss cross fashion.
- Mike Piazza used Rawling Adirondacks only for BP.
- Derek Bell liked to shave the handles of some of his bats and tape them at the end.
- Shinjo liked to use Joe McEwing model LVs and blacken out with marker the silver colored labeling so that his main bat company Descente couldn't tell he was using another brand.
-Tom Glavine like to tape the handles of his bats in the non-criss cross fashion.

I usually also like to see how the player holds the bats at the plate. Depending on how the player holds the bat which is typically with the label facing him the hit marks will be on the bat in the appropriate side of the labelling for righties (left side of the bat) and lefties (right side of the bat)

Also thru photos from yearbooks and cards I was able to determine facts like : Mike Piazza did use Jose Canseco Mizunos model bats early in his career, Jay Payton at one point used an Edgardo Alfonzo bat, Wally Backman during the 80's did at one point use a "DYKSTRA" block letter LV.

Hope this helps.

-David

MSpecht
12-16-2006, 01:43 PM
Hi Rudy--

You are absolutely correct--- at some point an authenticator has to say that he has gone as far as he can go, and based on the information gathered, resources utilized, etc here is an opinion. The key part, I believe, is to "let the buyer into your world' and present all of the info to him so that he can either agree or disagree with your opinion...after all, he is the one who is opening his wallet.

You may notice that, at some point, most everyone went from issuing "Letters of Authenticity" to issuing "Opinion Letters of Authenticity." I suppose that affords a degree of distance between the item and the authenticator ("Hey, it's just my opinion...I didn't say it is actually authentic"), but, personally, I want to let the buyer look at everything in the open and have the ability to evaluate on their own and say "Your opinion sucks!" (I imagine that thought has crossed your mind every time you see a Manning jersey these days.) My job is to present all the available information and make a rational and rreasoned evaluation leading to an opinion that "doesn't suck."



Anyway, to one of your original points, in the case of a Bobby Bonilla bat (or "Roberto Bonilla" as often seen), again you are right, especially if there is no vintage marker number on the handle and no photographic documentation of identifiable personal traits. At that point if everything else matched up, my final opinion, after leading the buyer through the specifics re: factory records, assessment of professional game use, etc, would read something like this:


"It is rare to have actually seen a player use the specific bat one is acquiring for his or her collection. The best to hope for, in most instances, is to acquire a player's professional model bat made during his playing career, with proper labeling for the period, which has reasonably close specifications to those which the player is known or believed to have used, and which shows evidence of game use. All of that is present with this bat. Additionally, the documentation contained in the Hillerich & Bradsby factory records, as outlined above, is specific to this bat.


In my opinion, this bat is an authentic game used professional model Louisville Slugger baseball bat, manufactured by Hillerich & Bradsby, ordered and used by former Major Leaguer Bobby Bonilla during the 1990 Major League season when he was a member of the Pittsburgh Pirates."



As an aside, info such as David posted above is extremely valuable, just like the Birdbats info I referenced earlier. You never know when some random piece of information will be useful down the road.


Mike Jackitout7@aol.com