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View Full Version : James Spence's "Lifetime Guarantee"



Eric
09-17-2014, 04:08 PM
Here is an experience I had with a Casey Stengel signed, game used autographed baseball which was authenticated by James Spence and sold by James Spence to the person who sold it to me. It came with a lifetime guarantee FROM JAMES SPENCE. It was subsequently sent to JSA who rejected it.
My story is here.

http://stangelbros.com/2014/09/17/ripped-off-by-a-james-spence-lifetime-guarantee/

Eric

commando
09-17-2014, 04:33 PM
Ahhh, the good ol' days of 1993. No accountability and lots of shadows.

bd300
09-17-2014, 04:58 PM
3rd party authentication companys are a scam. I would never trust their certificates. I can't believe that so many serious collectors do.

Eric
09-17-2014, 05:00 PM
I guess what was comforting was that Spence was such a high profile guy, and he believed so much in what he sold that he'd back it up FOREVER!

danesei@yahoo.com
09-17-2014, 05:49 PM
Here is an experience I had with a Casey Stengel signed, game used autographed baseball which was authenticated by James Spence and sold by James Spence to the person who sold it to me. It came with a lifetime guarantee FROM JAMES SPENCE. It was subsequently sent to JSA who rejected it.
My story is here.

http://stangelbros.com/2014/09/17/ripped-off-by-a-james-spence-lifetime-guarantee/

Eric

Did you try contacting Spence to initiate the lifetime guarantee? I'm curious on how he'd deal with settling the dispute, since his own company is saying that it's a fake.

Eric
09-17-2014, 06:02 PM
Did you try contacting Spence to initiate the lifetime guarantee? I'm curious on how he'd deal with settling the dispute, since his own company is saying that it's a fake.

His own company told me to go to the person I bought it from since they technically had nothing to do with it, even though their owner is the person who made the guarantee.

Have not heard back from Mr. Spence.

JSA also suggested that I try to get the 1993 invoice from the defunct company I bought it from, which seems very unlikely to happen.

3arod13
09-17-2014, 06:18 PM
His own company told me to go to the person I bought it from since they technically had nothing to do with it, even though their owner is the person who made the guarantee.

Have not heard back from Mr. Spence.

JSA also suggested that I try to get the 1993 invoice from the defunct company I bought it from, which seems very unlikely to happen.

This is ridiculous! Since James Spence authenticated the ball, he should take the ball back and give you what you paid. No questions asked! Especially considering you have written and signed documentation from him, no matter how long ago it was. End of story!! If not, take this story to the media. So, so sick of this!!

seanbaseball
09-17-2014, 06:22 PM
ITS POSSIBLE HE GOES TO AUTHENTICATE HIS OWN LETTER AND SIGNATURE AND SAYS IT DOESNT PASS. :eek: LOL

Eric
09-17-2014, 06:36 PM
This is ridiculous! Since James Spence authenticated the ball, he should take the ball back and give you what you paid. No questions asked! Especially considering you have written and signed documentation from him, no matter how long ago it was. End of story!! If not, take this story to the media. So, so sick of this!!

I agree. both people in this case offered "lifetime guarantees" and both people are giving reasons why they won't acknowledge those lifetime guarantees.

gingi79
09-17-2014, 06:42 PM
This is ridiculous! Since James Spence authenticated the ball, he should take the ball back and give you what you paid. No questions asked! Especially considering you have written and signed documentation from him, no matter how long ago it was. End of story!! If not, take this story to the media. So, so sick of this!!


I agree. I'd make as much noise as possible about the entire story. He hand wrote his personal Lifetime guarantee and now he himself says it's not real!?!

I'd contact a lawyer and then the Press and tell everyone I could on autograph boards and sports boards.He admitted he screwed up but takes no responsibility for it so what is his opinion about autographs worth now?

Bupkis.

Phil316
09-17-2014, 10:31 PM
Interesting story.

I wonder if the "lifetime" guarantee means for the life of the company. Since he has a new company the guarantee would not apply.

Eric please update this post with any resolution. Will pass this story/link around.

rufusandherschel
09-17-2014, 10:39 PM
I agree. I'd make as much noise as possible about the entire story.

Bupkis.

+1. Out the . . . . . . !

nevrdiez34
09-18-2014, 08:13 AM
It looks like the word is spreading, Darren Rovell just tweeted the link this morning...

Eric
09-18-2014, 08:19 AM
UPDATE:
James Spence has reached out to me and offered to discuss the matter when he returns to his office on Friday. He says it will give us the chance to "resolve this matter properly."

Hopefully he will do the right thing...

swainer
09-18-2014, 08:27 AM
Great news Eric! I see Steve Grad retweeted your tweet about the story. Those in glass houses....

Good luck bud!

3arod13
09-18-2014, 08:41 AM
UPDATE:
James Spence has reached out to me and offered to discuss the matter when he returns to his office on Friday. He says it will give us the chance to "resolve this matter properly."

Hopefully he will do the right thing...

Let's hope so! His name is on it! His own people (company) say it's no good! This is a no-brainer! I would give you your money back and then some! Good luck Eric!

Roady
09-18-2014, 09:01 AM
I have a question.....I understand you have a LOA for the ball.

How does one know the LOA goes with your ball? Does the ball and LOA have a matching hologram # or is there anything else that proves the LOA and the ball go together?

Just playing devils advocate and trying to learn.
Thanks

Roady
09-18-2014, 09:03 AM
And I am talking about he original hand written LOA that you have.
Thanks

mbrieve
09-18-2014, 09:19 AM
Eric, do you still think the ball is "good" or do you think they got it "right" this time and Spence was wrong/inexperienced 20 years ago?

What I'm getting at is there are a lot of self-proclaimed experts and even I can get mesmerized by the JSA or PSA stickers. However, I have seen plenty of examples where a signature is an autopen or just a scribble that I would have a really hard time believing is able to be authenticated (i.e. modern day Al Pacino or Brian Wilson (Beach Boy), where it is essentially a check mark or indiscernible chicken scratch) with the JSA or PSA stamp of approval.

Regardless, I do think a lifetime guarantee should mean something and he should be a man of his word. I don't know if that means a refund at your purchase price or what the original buyer paid for it. Bottom line, is this is a mess.

Good job using social media to shed some light on the situation!

rufusandherschel
09-18-2014, 09:23 AM
This is a no-brainer!

+1

tiger7171
09-18-2014, 09:41 AM
posted story on friends facebook page and he got irate with me since JSA is coming to his store on sunday. :p

3arod13
09-18-2014, 10:16 AM
posted story on friends facebook page and he got irate with me since JSA is coming to his store on sunday. :p

I believe that these days, everything is about the "All Mighty $$$." People will turn their head to almost everything and anything, if it will put money in their pocket. :mad:

Not directing this specifically at your friend.

flaco1801
09-18-2014, 10:59 AM
I dont understand taking all this BAD publicity for a 200 item....These people are hustlers not business people....I am glad i NEVER bid on any of these "auctions" they are ALL scams...

CollectGU
09-18-2014, 11:38 AM
I dont understand taking all this BAD publicity for a 200 item....These people are hustlers not business people....I am glad i NEVER bid on any of these "auctions" they are ALL scams...

Slightly off topic, but if you can find me Casey Stengel single signed balls for $200, I'd break my wrist reaching into my pocket to buy them....

Phil316
09-18-2014, 01:22 PM
Slightly off topic, but if you can find me Casey Stengel single signed balls for $200, I'd break my wrist reaching into my pocket to buy them....

And no Coaches Corner links lol

ironmanfan
09-18-2014, 02:12 PM
I know the heat is on Spence (understandably) but I also think Millwich has some accountability in this as well.

danesei@yahoo.com
09-18-2014, 03:42 PM
UPDATE:
James Spence has reached out to me and offered to discuss the matter when he returns to his office on Friday. He says it will give us the chance to "resolve this matter properly."

Hopefully he will do the right thing...

You should ask for $200+3.5% annual interest, compounded continuously.

mbrieve
09-18-2014, 04:06 PM
Where is everyone getting $200 from? I think it sold for $1,500???

danesei@yahoo.com
09-18-2014, 05:52 PM
Where is everyone getting $200 from? I think it sold for $1,500???
Then $1500 at 3.5% annual... $3020.63.

In any case, I think that the guy who sold the ball to Eric should be held responsible to Eric, and then Spence held liable to the second party. That makes the most sense to me.

3arod13
09-18-2014, 06:30 PM
In any case, I think that the guy who sold the ball to Eric should be held responsible to Eric, and then Spence held liable to the second party. That makes the most sense to me.

Interesting. I think Spence should be responsible to Eric and end it there. Each time that ball changed hands, it had a lot to do with the LOA attached to the ball for each buyer. To hold buyers accountable, when they did nothing wrong, is difficult for me to take. However, that's just my opinion.

xpress34
09-18-2014, 08:58 PM
Interesting. I think Spence should be responsible to Eric and end it there. Each time that ball changed hands, it had a lot to do with the LOA attached to the ball for each buyer. To hold buyers accountable, when they did nothing wrong, is difficult for me to take. However, that's just my opinion.

Which is why many COAs/LOAs now (The Colorado Rockies LOAs come to mind) flat out state that they cannot verify the item if sold to another party.

Once the original buyer from the team sells it, the Rockies have zero obligation/liability/exposure.

camarokids
09-18-2014, 09:29 PM
Hope you get your money back. If not, you should have a solid case in court.

danesei@yahoo.com
09-19-2014, 04:02 AM
Interesting. I think Spence should be responsible to Eric and end it there. Each time that ball changed hands, it had a lot to do with the LOA attached to the ball for each buyer. To hold buyers accountable, when they did nothing wrong, is difficult for me to take. However, that's just my opinion.

I would understand that logic, except that the second seller (the middle party claiming no fault since they're business is defunct) also included a COA/LOA as a UACC dealer.

Technically speaking, UACC members are supposed to offer lifetime returns on all items with a clear receipt.

As for the Rockies, that's also why I say liability should follow the chain of custody. The Rockies limit their liability to the original party, since that's the only transaction that they can control. If the party then sells to someone else, they're selling custodial provenance along with the physical item. That's why, sometimes, when I purchase an item I'm unsure on, I ask for a statement of provenance. It probably has no validity in court, but it does allow me to go back to the person who sold to me to at least try and get my money back, should someone that I sell to say it's fake.

3arod13
09-19-2014, 05:53 AM
So let me ask this. You have a PSA 10 graded bat that you sell to me on ebay. I then turn around and sell it ebay. My buyer later proves that the bat isn't authentic game used. I'm obligated to refund the final buyer? Then I have to go after you for a refund?

Always wondered how this would work. Ebay accepts PSA items being sold, as they recognize them as a trustworthy authentication service. PSA authenticated the bat.

I'm sure I know what they answer will be.

danesei@yahoo.com
09-19-2014, 06:20 AM
So let me ask this. You have a PSA 10 graded bat that you sell to me on ebay. I then turn around and sell it ebay. My buyer later proves that the bat isn't authentic game used. I'm obligated to refund the final buyer? Then I have to go after you for a refund?

Yes and yes. Let's expand your example a bit.

You buy a PSA 10 ARod bat from me on eBay for $400. You turn around and sell the bat for $1200 a year later. Somehow the buyer proves the bat isn't authentic. (I'm not sure how, but it's your example.) If the buyer asks you for a refund, you would need to refund the buyer $1200. I would be liable to you for $400 (and maybe for an additional court-determined interest rate, if you chose to sue me). It would be lunacy for me to be liable to your buyer for $1200, since I had no role in that transaction.

Now let's push the transaction even further back. I purchased the bat from someone for $1700 when ARod stuff was hot, thinking I was getting a rare piece of history. You've just informed me that I had made a fraudulent purchase. I think I'd then need to sue that seller, since they likely wouldn't be happy being asked to refund me $1700 six years after the fact.

My point is that it seems more responsible for each individual to have liability in the transaction they were involved in. Otherwise, the final owner could be told by everyone in the chain of custody "Go ask the next guy." It seems simpler to deal with the person you purchased from.

The primary reason that I asked if Eric had contacted Spence was the seeming lack of integrity of the middle person. Eric did try to get his money back from the person he bought the item from, but they blamed Spence. I think that was wrong. Even if Spence is ultimately liable for the item, I think his liability is limited to the original transaction.

I do understand your point about the authority with the LOA, though.

Now, returning to the GU10 bat, what if it were changed a little?

Say it's 2035 and someone submits a bat to PSA that was sold to me by someone else who purchased the bat from JT Sports. Between my owning the bat and the current submitter, the bat has changed hands seven times, and the image on the JT Sports LOA is pretty trashed up. PSA says the bat is no good, as some evidence came to surface in 2027 that all bats from that player were stolen from his locker on the first day of the season. He had never mentioned it before, since he didn't think anyone would care. So, with new evidence, the bat is clearly no good. I'm sure Taube would tell the original buyer that he found out the bat is no good, but the buyer says he no longer has it.

Now, the current owner of the bat is told by PSA's bat grading division that has Taube as CEO that the bat is no good. I couldn't really see holding JT liable for the current value of the bat. I could only see him being liable to the original purchaser for whatever that price was, again, plus some inflation adjustment.

3arod13
09-19-2014, 06:47 AM
Yes and yes. Let's expand your example a bit.

You buy a PSA 10 ARod bat from me on eBay for $400. You turn around and sell the bat for $1200 a year later. Somehow the buyer proves the bat isn't authentic. (I'm not sure how, but it's your example.) If the buyer asks you for a refund, you would need to refund the buyer $1200. I would be liable to you for $400 (and maybe for an additional court-determined interest rate, if you chose to sue me). It would be lunacy for me to be liable to your buyer for $1200, since I had no role in that transaction.

Now let's push the transaction even further back. I purchased the bat from someone for $1700 when ARod stuff was hot, thinking I was getting a rare piece of history. You've just informed me that I had made a fraudulent purchase. I think I'd then need to sue that seller, since they likely wouldn't be happy being asked to refund me $1700 six years after the fact.

My point is that it seems more responsible for each individual to have liability in the transaction they were involved in. Otherwise, the final owner could be told by everyone in the chain of custody "Go ask the next guy." It seems simpler to deal with the person you purchased from.

The primary reason that I asked if Eric had contacted Spence was the seeming lack of integrity of the middle person. Eric did try to get his money back from the person he bought the item from, but they blamed Spence. I think that was wrong. Even if Spence is ultimately liable for the item, I think his liability is limited to the original transaction.

I do understand your point about the authority with the LOA, though.

Now, returning to the GU10 bat, what if it were changed a little?

Say it's 2035 and someone submits a bat to PSA that was sold to me by someone else who purchased the bat from JT Sports. Between my owning the bat and the current submitter, the bat has changed hands seven times, and the image on the JT Sports LOA is pretty trashed up. PSA says the bat is no good, as some evidence came to surface in 2027 that all bats from that player were stolen from his locker on the first day of the season. He had never mentioned it before, since he didn't think anyone would care. So, with new evidence, the bat is clearly no good. I'm sure Taube would tell the original buyer that he found out the bat is no good, but the buyer says he no longer has it.

Now, the current owner of the bat is told by PSA's bat grading division that has Taube as CEO that the bat is no good. I couldn't really see holding JT liable for the current value of the bat. I could only see him being liable to the original purchaser for whatever that price was, again, plus some inflation adjustment.

First, thanks for your comments. You always spend a lot of time and thought in your posts, and it's much appreciated and educational.

Your comment: You buy a PSA 10 ARod bat from me on eBay for $400. You turn around and sell the bat for $1200 a year later. Somehow the buyer proves the bat isn't authentic. (I'm not sure how, but it's your example.)

Response: Same way I found out my Rawlings bat wasn't an authentic GU HR #15 bat; he used a Lousiville Slugger not a Rawlings. Authenticated by the player and multiple sources.

These situations are all very messy! And trying to go back to each source, many years later, and expecting them to give you your money back, the chances aren't that good. Especially if your talking about an item that sold in the thousands.

Again, thanks!

Eric
09-19-2014, 12:30 PM
UPDATE: Just had a very good conversation with Jimmy Spence who agreed to honor his lifetime guarantee & refund my money. Thank you Jimmy.

ChrisCavalier
09-19-2014, 12:44 PM
UPDATE: Just had a very good conversation with Jimmy Spence who agreed to honor his lifetime guarantee & refund my money. Thank you Jimmy.
Glad to hear it Eric. Kudos also to Jimmy for honoring the guarantee.

-Chris

camarokids
09-19-2014, 01:51 PM
UPDATE: Just had a very good conversation with Jimmy Spence who agreed to honor his lifetime guarantee & refund my money. Thank you Jimmy.

No kudos to PSA for trying to pass the buck. Only after seeing the backlash, did they honor the lifetime guarantee.

danesei@yahoo.com
09-19-2014, 03:47 PM
No kudos to PSA for trying to pass the buck. Only after seeing the backlash, did they honor the lifetime guarantee.

JSA, not PSA.

I agree with Chris that it's good that Spence did the right thing. I think Eric took the fight public too quickly to fairly say that it was merely a result of negative publicity that drove his decision. I give Spence the benefit of the doubt. I also don't blame JSA's service representative, as they probably aren't privy to what items Spence sold during his lifetime.

I'm glad things worked out and Eric and Spence were able to come to an amicable solution.

3arod13
09-19-2014, 04:00 PM
Great ending! Congrats Eric and good on Spence!

Phil316
09-19-2014, 04:44 PM
great to hear Eric.

BVC
09-20-2014, 07:04 PM
Eric, this is good news. By the way, I tried to PM you regarding the football I described on the other forum where you were discussing this story, but you have exceeded your PM limit for this board. If you are interested in that story, please contact me - you can use email on the other board or PM on this one, but don't send a PM via the other, as I don't read them. Thanks.

Eric
09-20-2014, 07:34 PM
Eric, this is good news. By the way, I tried to PM you regarding the football I described on the other forum where you were discussing this story, but you have exceeded your PM limit for this board. If you are interested in that story, please contact me - you can use email on the other board or PM on this one, but don't send a PM via the other, as I don't read them. Thanks.

Just tried to PM you and it said you have chosen not to receive PMs. Hmm...

BVC
09-20-2014, 07:38 PM
That makes no sense - just checked my settings and the box for receiving private messages is checked :confused:

Try contacting me through the contact link on my website - in signature below. I know that works.

G1X
09-21-2014, 12:16 PM
Here is an experience I had with a Casey Stengel signed, game used autographed baseball which was authenticated by James Spence and sold by James Spence to the person who sold it to me. It came with a lifetime guarantee FROM JAMES SPENCE. It was subsequently sent to JSA who rejected it.
My story is here.

http://stangelbros.com/2014/09/17/ripped-off-by-a-james-spence-lifetime-guarantee/

Eric

Eric,

Seems like something is missing here. You mentioned Mark Jordan in your story as also authenticating the ball, but nothing more. I am curious to hear his claims about the legitimacy of the signature. Is there a copy of his authentication of the ball, or is the only reference to him contained in the COA from Steve Milwich?

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

allstarsplus
09-22-2014, 06:58 AM
UPDATE: Just had a very good conversation with Jimmy Spence who agreed to honor his lifetime guarantee & refund my money. Thank you Jimmy.

Congrats Eric. You put some good pressure on him/them to do the right thing.

You would hope they'd do the same for anybody that had their COA/Guarantee but somehow I still think it's a case of the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" and you got on them.

G1X
09-25-2014, 12:14 AM
Eric,

Seems like something is missing here. You mentioned Mark Jordan in your story as also authenticating the ball, but nothing more. I am curious to hear his claims about the legitimacy of the signature. Is there a copy of his authentication of the ball, or is the only reference to him contained in the COA from Steve Milwich?

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Eric,

Checking back as I am really curious to know about Mark Jordan's role.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

BVC
09-25-2014, 11:03 AM
I think he must be unavailable. He emailed me on the 20th asking for details about the football I described, I emailed back that same day and then nothing but silence. Same experience with a forum member on Net54, so I think the curiosity was more like someone driving by a car-wreck than anyone with real advice. Don't you love the internet.

sox83cubs84
09-25-2014, 11:24 AM
At the summer Rosemont show, I was told that Jordan had been in a serious auto accident and, while he survived,, his injuries were such as to render him in need of extensive physical rehab.

Dave Miedema

Eric
11-10-2014, 12:59 PM
UPDATE:
It took a while for me to get the Stengel ball back from the lady I sold it to, (who had it rejected by JSA). When I did, I returned it to James Spence who in turn sent me a check for the amount I paid Steve Milwich for the ball 25 years ago. I appreciate him making the effort to make this right.

Thanks for all who helped…

Eric

ShaimOnYou
11-10-2014, 09:21 PM
At 25-year ago prices, could he afford not to pay you back and make this go away?

In either case, it is nice to see one of the hobby "specialists" step up to the plate and actually show some character by honoring something they promised. It's sooo so rare.

3arod13
11-11-2014, 08:12 AM
it is nice to see one of the hobby "specialists" step up to the plate and actually show some character by honoring something they promised. It's sooo so rare.

Well, I think it had a lot to do with who Eric is in the hobby and the noise that was being created about this. If you honestly think this would have happened if it were you or I, I doubt it. However, I am glad this worked out the way it did.

rufusandherschel
11-11-2014, 08:37 AM
Well, I think it had a lot to do with who Eric is in the hobby and the noise that was being created about this. If you honestly think this would have happened if it were you or I, I doubt it. However, I am glad this worked out the way it did.
Absolutely! +1

ShaimOnYou
11-11-2014, 11:47 AM
Well, I think it had a lot to do with who Eric is in the hobby and the noise that was being created about this. If you honestly think this would have happened if it were you or I, I doubt it. However, I am glad this worked out the way it did.

I was just trying to be nice. You're absolutely right.