Patrick Willis...No Game Use to Lots of Game Use!

[DoctorLoomis]

This Patrick Willis jersey mysteriously picked up some major use in only a few days. Notice the front shoulder area. This is pathetic.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PATRICK-WILLIS-ROAD-JERSEY-/251607975815?nma=true&si=juw2o7f8g582A0s20eWETKkO1ZY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557



http://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-PATRICK-WILLIS-SAN-FRANCISCO-49ERS-ROAD-JERSEY-/251662798174?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a98458d5e

[DoctorLoomis]

In case another mystery occurs and the auctions get deleted I've added before and after pics.......

[DoctorLoomis]

Before.......

[beachpetrol]

Wash tag looks different on both jersey pics. Notice the white stitch pattern and the "2013" looks to be in a different spot.

[DoctorLoomis]

Wash tag looks different on both jersey pics. Notice the white stitch pattern and the "2013" looks to be in a different spot.

If these are different jerseys then he must have a cache of $3000 Patrick Willis jerseys lying around.

[beachpetrol]

I noticed the nameplates are different as well. So you think they changed the nameplate on the issued jersey to make it look like a different jersey and add some wear to it, to make it look game used? Even though nowhere in the current auction does it say game worn or game used.

[DoctorLoomis]

I noticed the nameplates are different as well. So you think they changed the nameplate on the issued jersey to make it look like a different jersey and add some wear to it, to make it look game used? Even though nowhere in the current auction does it say game worn or game used.

I'll agree it doesn't say game used...but it does say "some use with several hit marks". I wonder where those hit marks came from. Further, I stand by my previous comment that this guy has a cache of jerseys lying around that happen to be worth 3-4K a piece.....from the same player....from the same year....both road jerseys....and not a lick of provenance, history, etc. I leave it to each collector to form their own opinion. I have definitely formed mine.

[DoctorLoomis]

I noticed the nameplates are different as well. So you think they changed the nameplate on the issued jersey to make it look like a different jersey and add some wear to it, to make it look game used? Even though nowhere in the current auction does it say game worn or game used.

My friend when I'm wrong I say I'm wrong. The plates are different. I should've looked closer. But I still wonder where those "hit marks and transfer markings" came from...on a superstar player jersey without one shred of provenance.

[xsentrixsupra]

I've spoken to him before on some 49ers jerseys. He said his dad is an entertianment lawyer and specifically works with XAM which represents Kaepernick. I ended up not feeling comfortable with it, but the guy did seem knowledgable so for better or worse, he does seem to know what is what. He said he actually does have boxes of jerseys dating from back to 09. He was talking about the difference between replating a jersey and game used. In the end seemed like a nice guy, but I looked at photos of all the games from the season the jersey was represented as and couldn't match up any of the marks, so I ended up passing.

[Roady]

My friend when I'm wrong I say I'm wrong. The plates are different. I should've looked closer. But I still wonder where those "hit marks and transfer markings" came from...on a superstar player jersey without one shred of provenance.

I am wrong but there must be something to make me right. :rolleyes:
Some of you guys are like those Bigfoot hunters. You see a Bigfoot in every photo and behind every tree.
You should apologize to the seller.

[xsentrixsupra]

I am wrong but there must be something to make me right. :rolleyes:
Some of you guys are like those Bigfoot hunters. You see a Bigfoot in every photo and behind every tree.
You should apologize to the seller.

I know what you mean, by it being a type of witch hunt, whenever something is posted, people want everything to be absolutely perfect and go out of their way to find flaws and raise questions.

In this case though it does seem like people have raised some legit concerns. It isn't the typical "well this mesh hole is off .00002 cm from the edge of the # it must be fake" I'm not 1 of the people who goes to that detail, but I was looking at this jersey when he had it for sale earlier and just wasn't able to find anything even remotely close to the marks on the shoulder area. That's not to say 100% it's not legit as the guy seemed like a nice dude, but there are plenty of pics with a simple Google image search of every half of every game from that season with Willis playing and I wasn't able to find anything close.

[COWBOYS4EVR]

IMO, seems to be 2 different jerseys.
Spacing between the 5-2 is different.

[Phil316]

IMO, seems to be 2 different jerseys.
Spacing between the 5-2 is different.

In my opinion they are 2 different jerseys.

The only thing that is odd is him talking about replating.

[xsentrixsupra]

I offered him 500 for a Boldin jersey and a Kaepernick jersey he had and he declined

[CollectGU]

In my opinion they are 2 different jerseys.

The only thing that is odd is him talking about replating.

Two totally different jerseys, Loomis owes the seller an apology.....

[beachpetrol]

My friend when I'm wrong I say I'm wrong. The plates are different. I should've looked closer. But I still wonder where those "hit marks and transfer markings" came from...on a superstar player jersey without one shred of provenance.
Yeah, if he does have connections, I wonder why he doesn't mention that in the auction in some way. Looks like the auction ended, so maybe it will show up again in the near future, or maybe he sold it off ebay.

[solarlottry]

I have recently picked up a number of game worn 49er jerseys that had "player provenance" but did not have a COA. I was told that the seller had connections and that the shirts were good. I took a chance and have been able to add a number of quality gamers at good prices including Anquan Boldin and Eric Reid shirts worn in the NFC championship game.

Just because a shirt does not have a COA stating provenance does not mean it is not good. I have numerous 49er gamers that do not have direct provenance that are key additions to my collection.

Some of the 2012 and 2013 49er shirts that I recently added had use similar to the use the Willis in the eBay auction showed. Also the white jerseys do not show much use in the images but do show way more when in hand. All of the jerseys I have added have been washed and washing removes much of the use as well.

Xsentrixsupra-you may be confusing eBay sellers. The seller of the Boldin was different than the seller of the Willis. I acquired a home Boldin from that seller which is his first 49er gamer.


Always buying 49er gamers especially 1994 and vintage gamers.
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[G1X]

Just because a shirt does not have a COA stating provenance does not mean it is not good. I have numerous 49er gamers that do not have direct provenance that are key additions to my collection.
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

Well said, Paul. Like you, numerous jerseys in my collection have little or no provenance, especially the older jerseys. Does this make our jerseys questionable or no good? Of course not.

I realize that some collectors depend on COAs, professional authentication, provenance, or other proof that the item is what it supposed to be, but keep in mind that there are numerous collectors who collect specific teams, players, etc. (such as Paul with the 49ers) who have the knowledge and expertise to determine for themselves.

Please, before posting in this Forum about "fake" and questionable items, be absolutely sure, beyond any doubt, that you are 100% correct. Otherwise, you are doing a disservice to not only the person trying to sell the item, but also to the hobby in general.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

[Preston]

I have recently picked up a number of game worn 49er jerseys that had "player provenance" but did not have a COA. I was told that the seller had connections and that the shirts were good. I took a chance and have been able to add a number of quality gamers at good prices including Anquan Boldin and Eric Reid shirts worn in the NFC championship game.

Just because a shirt does not have a COA stating provenance does not mean it is not good. I have numerous 49er gamers that do not have direct provenance that are key additions to my collection.

Some of the 2012 and 2013 49er shirts that I recently added had use similar to the use the Willis in the eBay auction showed. Also the white jerseys do not show much use in the images but do show way more when in hand. All of the jerseys I have added have been washed and washing removes much of the use as well.

Xsentrixsupra-you may be confusing eBay sellers. The seller of the Boldin was different than the seller of the Willis. I acquired a home Boldin from that seller which is his first 49er gamer.


Always buying 49er gamers especially 1994 and vintage gamers.
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com


Hey Paul,

Any chance you would be able to get a Quinton Patton gamer? He's from my town and I would love to get one of his jerseys.

[CollectGU]

Crickets from Loomis.............

[Roady]

.

[DoctorLoomis]

Crickets from Loomis.............

Crickets? No its called having a family, a career and a life outside of collecting memorabilia. Further I already admitted I was wrong.... publicly.... that the two jerseys were different. However I stand by my remark that Patrick Willis jerseys don't just pop up with zero provenance.. especially more than one from the same seller. It seems that people share my thoughts exactly since the first jersey brought a lowly $200 or so. If I'm wrong then so be it.... by my suspicions.... shared with most on this board.... is the jersey with the hit marks and transfer marks" was never ever worn by Patrick Willis. If you disagree then get your money on the table and buy it.

[beachpetrol]

Crickets? No its called having a family, a career and a life outside of collecting memorabilia. Further I already admitted I was wrong.... publicly.... that the two jerseys were different. However I stand by my remark that Patrick Willis jerseys don't just pop up with zero provenance.. especially more than one from the same seller. It seems that people share my thoughts exactly since the first jersey brought a lowly $200 or so. If I'm wrong then so be it.... by my suspicions.... shared with most on this board.... is the jersey with the hit marks and transfer marks" was never ever worn by Patrick Willis. If you disagree then get your money on the table and buy it.
I don't think you owe the seller any apology whatsoever. Your concerns are legit. I feel, there is actually a very very small chance that it could be the same jersey. Does anyone know if removing and replacing a screened on number on a jersey, is a possible thing to do?

Also, if this seller is credible and has provenance, whether it be player or locker room or whatever, why is he saying all sales are final and demanding payment as soon as the auction ends? His wording in the auction descriptions not mentioning game issued or game worn/used, is very suspicious as well.

[DoctorLoomis]

I don't think you owe the seller any apology whatsoever. Your concerns are legit. I feel, there is actually a very very small chance that it could be the same jersey. Does anyone know if removing and replacing a screened on number on a jersey, is a possible thing to do?

Also, if this seller is credible and has provenance, whether it be player or locker room or whatever, why is he saying all sales are final and demanding payment as soon as the auction ends? His wording in the auction descriptions not mentioning game issued or game worn/used, is very suspicious as well.

Thank you my friend. The description of the second jersey states that it shows use. Does that not IMPLY use from Patrick Willis? If not was the use from a backyard touch football game with the in laws? Who used it? I Smell a rat and I know that ANY knowledgeable collector on these boards does too.

[DoctorLoomis]

Well said, Paul. Like you, numerous jerseys in my collection have little or no provenance, especially the older jerseys. Does this make our jerseys questionable or no good? Of course not.

I realize that some collectors depend on COAs, professional authentication, provenance, or other proof that the item is what it supposed to be, but keep in mind that there are numerous collectors who collect specific teams, players, etc. (such as Paul with the 49ers) who have the knowledge and expertise to determine for themselves.

Please, before posting in this Forum about "fake" and questionable items, be absolutely sure, beyond any doubt, that you are 100% correct. Otherwise, you are doing a disservice to not only the person trying to sell the item, but also to the hobby in general.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange



Mark I understand you perfectly. However, we're not talking about an older jersey here. Here's the bottom line.....MULTIPLE Patrick Willis jerseys DO NOT walk out of the stadium.... worth 4 thousand dollars each.... and end up on eBay..... both from the same seller.... with a price of 200 bucks. Nothing else I can say.

[beachpetrol]

Thank you my friend. The description of the second jersey states that it shows use. Does that not IMPLY use from Patrick Willis? If not was the use from a backyard touch football game with the in laws? Who used it? I Smell a rat and I know that ANY knowledgeable collector on these boards does too.
Do you, or anyone else for that matter, know if removing and replacing a screened on number is a possible thing to do? Reason I ask, check out the front 5 on both jerseys. To me, the second one looks a little more elongated.

[Roady]

I don't think you owe the seller any apology whatsoever. Your concerns are legit. I feel, there is actually a very very small chance that it could be the same jersey. Does anyone know if removing and replacing a screened on number on a jersey, is a possible thing to do?

Also, if this seller is credible and has provenance, whether it be player or locker room or whatever, why is he saying all sales are final and demanding payment as soon as the auction ends? His wording in the auction descriptions not mentioning game issued or game worn/used, is very suspicious as well.

.

[beachpetrol]

.
Great info. Thanks. I think we're getting closer to figuring this out now.

[Roady]

Great info. Thanks. I think we're getting closer to figuring this out now.
.

[beachpetrol]

.
I don't think Professor Plum is trying to sell the jersey.

[G1X]

Here's the bottom line.....MULTIPLE Patrick Willis jerseys DO NOT walk out of the stadium.... worth 4 thousand dollars each.... and end up on eBay..... both from the same seller.... with a price of 200 bucks. Nothing else I can say.

That's precisely what happened with Tampa Bay Bucs jerseys about 12 years ago. I am sure that Jake and others remember that well.

While I perfectly understand your concerns with the Willis jerseys, I am not about to enter into a debate about the legitimacy of the jerseys or the seller as I have no opinion or comment one way or the other. The main reason for my post was to wholeheartedly agree with Paul's statement about provenance, and for folks to be absolutely sure before pointing fingers due to the damage it can inflict.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

[Samets]

That's precisely what happened with Tampa Bay Bucs jerseys about 12 years ago. I am sure that Jake and others remember that well. ...

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

Mark,

For the ones that have not been around that long, can we hear that story?

I love stories!

[solarlottry]

I agree with Loomis to some extent as that it would appear strange that two Willis shirts would come from the same seller and only garner bids up to 200$ on eBay. I think there is an explanation for this as bidders are looking for a bargain on eBay plus without provenance bidders are scared off. Most assume the shirt is fake just because it is on eBay and listed cheaply to start. If the item does not get bid up it further scares off other bidders thus the low price.

I am in no way passing judgement on the Willis shirts but from my recent experience with another seller I met through eBay multiple gamers of the same player do leave 49er HQ and are sold. Of course I was a bit cautious at first buying shirts that seemingly are impossible to find except via NFL Auctions but every shirt I have purchased has been photo matched. This does not mean the Willis shirts are legit but does mean that there are sellers out there with connections that do get 49er gamers from the last 3 seasons and that at times they get multiple shirts of the same player.

With regards to the sellers eBay policies one of the sellers I deal with regularly also has similar policies (no returns etc) but does not demand payment immediately. Again I can see how these policies are a turn off and can raise suspicion but I guess it boils down to how much risk one wants to take.

This is what I have acquired recently from the last three seasons:
2012 Frank Gore away
2013 Anquan Boldin home-his first 49er jersey
2013 Anquan Boldin away-worn vs AZ and vs Carolina and Seattle in the playoffs
2013 Eric Reid away-worn in NFC championship game
2013 Vance McDonald home
2013 Bruce Miller away
2013 Ahmed Brooks away
2013 Alex Boone away
2013 Lawrence Okoye away
2011 Michael Wilhoite away

Plus I have had to turn down multiple shirts due to a number of factors. So they do exist and it is possible (I did not say likely) that the same seller could have multiple shirts of the same player, especially the road shirt as they seem more available than the home red.

Always buying 49er gamers!
Paul
garciajones@yahoo.com

[Mattapan03]

I agree with the below post. As a seller, I would never expect to get any real value for items that certainly deserve and would garner more at a professional auction. Nobody is really shopping on ebay willing to spend some of the prices these jersey's are worth.

For lack of better words, ebay is just a dumping ground for junk, and the buyers hunt for cheap deals as if they're haggling at GoodWill. I think all of us on here, myself included, are guilty of that too.

This Willis jersey fits this mold. I cannot comment one way or another on its legitimacy because Im not an expert on 49ers stuff, but seeing this on ebay for $200 does not surprise me....legit or not

[G1X]

Mark,

For the ones that have not been around that long, can we hear that story?

I love stories!

To make a very long story short, two guys who were into collecting and selling Bucs memorabilia such as photos, autographs, gloves, etc., somehow ended up obtaining a large number of Bucs jerseys that were from 1997 through around 1999. There were multiple jerseys of many players with the majority showing game use, and a number of them marked in the tail tag with the equipment manager's initials and a date (presumably the date of the game or the date the jersey was first worn, but the date was not always completely accurate). It appears that the Bucs better players were wearing a new jersey in almost every game in 1998 - or at least that appears to have been the plan.

These gentlemen admittedly did not have much knowledge of game-used jerseys, and they started listing them on ebay. After I had bought a couple and realized that they had many more, I contacted them directly and ended up purchasing every jersey they had remaining of some of the better players on the roster at that time. For example, I had close to a dozen of Hardy Nickerson, Trent Dilfer, and a few others. Most were tailored and showed nice game wear, and a few were either mint or were not tailored to begin with (obvious for guys like Nickerson whose jersey was highly customized).

All in all, the jerseys did not have any type of provenance or garner high prices, but there was never any doubt that the jerseys were legit.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange