New User - Steiner Complication

[jlabadie88]

Hello all,

I have recently acquired a game-used World Series ball with Jeter's signature. The ball has MLB authentication and the signature doesn't appear at all to be a forgery. The ball was to come with Steiner provenance, but all I received was one of the generic Steiner credit card style certificates with no bar code, and the ball is not affixed with a Steiner sticker.

So essentially, it looks like I have nothing to validate the Jeter signature. I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with the Steiner method of authentication, as I thought they used the hologram on all items.

[Phil316]

Maybe try contacting Steiner about the situation. Does the MLB sticker mentionanything about it being signed by Jeter ?

[cliffjmp33]

In my experience I had sent in baseballs to be signed and received back a generic Steiner card certifying the autograph. However, each time the ball was affixed with a sticker. Possibly they just forgot to do put the sticker on? May be worth contacting the person or business you acquired it from as to the lack of sticker.

Off hand if I recall post elsewhere on this site, Steiner may recertify the item of theirs for a cost. I don't know the truth or cost if that is true though.

[jlabadie88]

I spoke with Steiner and provided the auction lot details and a picture of the certificate. The said they typically don't affix send-in items with a sticker. So in my case they said what most likely happened is this was such a send-in item. They guaranteed based on what they saw (including the COA) it was legitimate.

Again I'm not concerned, as the Jeter sig doesn't appear at all to be a forgery. Could be a slight issue someday regarding resale but oh well.

[jlabadie88]

The MLB sticker only attests to game use.

[Wrigley2010]

Why would Steiner send a generic cert card out with a baseball that cost a significant amount to get signed? Am I the only one who finds this absurd? I mean why even give the cert card if there is no way to tie it to the item the customer paid for? This opens a whole new can of worms... If it's known that Steiner issues cert cards without a holo for send in Jeter autos then wouldn't this make it easier for forgeries to be passed on as Steiner authentics?

I understand Jeter's auto would be a challenging one to forge but I guarantee it can and has been done with some effectiveness. Now you give that same forger with a generic cert card the ability to list a Jeter auto as a Steiner send in??? Honestly, I have always found Steiners business practices to be the lowest in the industry and for lack of a better word, lazy.

[marino13]

This makes NO sense what so ever.

If you can post pictures of the item along with the MLB hologram - things can be sort out --- other than that, it is just a lot of mumble jumble.

[sctizzle]

Any send in I've done with Steiner has always gotten a Steiner hologram and Coa card.

[ShaimOnYou]

Why would Steiner send a generic cert card out with a baseball that cost a significant amount to get signed? Am I the only one who finds this absurd? I mean why even give the cert card if there is no way to tie it to the item the customer paid for? This opens a whole new can of worms... If it's known that Steiner issues cert cards without a holo for send in Jeter autos then wouldn't this make it easier for forgeries to be passed on as Steiner authentics?

I understand Jeter's auto would be a challenging one to forge but I guarantee it can and has been done with some effectiveness. Now you give that same forger with a generic cert card the ability to list a Jeter auto as a Steiner send in??? Honestly, I have always found Steiners business practices to be the lowest in the industry and for lack of a better word, lazy.

Couldn't agree more, Wrigley2010.

I keep saying this, and I'll say it until my end of days. If we as collectors ACCEPT these kind of practices as OK, then we will get what we deserve. A collection full of questionable second-rate stuff worth less than what we paid for it.

That's not my idea of a fun hobby. DEMAND better.

I wouldn't send ANYTHING to Steiner for a signature from any athlete because of their seriously flawed authentication system for "send-ins". I mean, what makes a "send-in" item any less authenticatable, with Steiner representatives present, than their own items they are having signed by the athlete???

They should handle BOTH in the same manner, and apply their sticker to the item sent in for signature, as BOTH (Steiner's own items and the send-in's) are being created in the same manner, under their supervision.

Chris

[ShaimOnYou]

Any send in I've done with Steiner has always gotten a Steiner hologram and Coa card.

If that's true, then I believe jlababie88 purchased something from Steiner that they acted as a third-party authenticator on. It would make sense that Steiner wouldn't apply their sticker on the Jeter ball if it wasn't signed in their presence, but would sell it with their generic authentication card if they believed the signature to be true.

Otherwise, the dang thing should have come with a sticker.

[Phil316]

Couldn't agree more, Wrigley2010.

I keep saying this, and I'll say it until my end of days. If we as collectors ACCEPT these kind of practices as OK, then we will get what we deserve. A collection full of questionable second-rate stuff worth less than what we paid for it.

That's not my idea of a fun hobby. DEMAND better.

I wouldn't send ANYTHING to Steiner for a signature from any athlete because of their seriously flawed authentication system for "send-ins". I mean, what makes a "send-in" item any less authenticatable, with Steiner representatives present, than their own items they are having signed by the athlete???

They should handle BOTH in the same manner, and apply their sticker to the item sent in for signature, as BOTH (Steiner's own items and the send-in's) are being created in the same manner, under their supervision.

Chris

Very well said. Honestly I have used a couple different companies to send my item to get signed by certain players. I would never use Steiner for the reasons mentioned above.

Also contrary to what you may believe all you need is a team of great forgers to consistently pump out fakes. i wish I could name the company but cannot due to certain circumstances. Needless to say any person looking to fake an item even Jeters can do so.

[Phil316]

Also for reference it is not unheard of people selling just the COA's from Steiner. If I recall a seller on ebay was selling large amounts of COA's from several MLB players.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=58268&highlight=Steiner+coa

So it can be done.

[cliffjmp33]

I should have been clearer in my reference to a generic COA card. I meant it was not like ones with a detailed barcode. It was just a typed name of the person like the one attached below.

[Wrigley2010]

I would consider that a generic Steiner cert.

One question that needs to be answered here is whether this is a Steiner issue or an auction house issue. Obviously, Steiner can not be responsible for one of their cert cards if an auction house allowed it as provenance for an item which was void of a hologram. Heck, I have a more Steiner cert cards than I can shake a stick at but I consider them useless if they do not accompany their designated autograph. Which auction house did you win this from?

[Redcar23]

I would consider that a generic Steiner cert.

One question that needs to be answered here is whether this is a Steiner issue or an auction house issue. Obviously, Steiner can not be responsible for one of their cert cards if an auction house allowed it as provenance for an item which was void of a hologram. Heck, I have a more Steiner cert cards than I can shake a stick at but I consider them useless if they do not accompany their designated autograph. Which auction house did you win this from?

Steiner does issue holograms and cards for their send in items. You get a generic card back because they will authenticate the signature only, not the item (who knows if you are sending in a knockoff authentic jersey) so there will be nothing about the item exept "Derek Jeter Autograph" or "Derek Jeter Flat Autograph" or something along those lines.

If anyone has any questions for them, instead of everyone just adding more speculation, why not just reach out and ask.

[marino13]

Will throw in my two cents since I deal a lot of Steiner send-ins.

1. I always get the hologram affixed to the item (at exact spot requested).

2. I do get "generic" cert here and there, but when I requested for specific -- that is what I get.

3. As for barcoded cert -- those were done mostly for in-store or online purpose only. Those are not for send-ins.


Now back to the OP's scenario --- which I find VERY strange to say the least.

1. A game used WS baseball (most likely to be '09 or earlier) - it would have at least TWO holograms attached already -- One from MLB and ONE from Steiner. It would also have a letter with matching hologram.

1A. Unless the ball is from the opponents - then it would not have the additional Steiner hologram and letter.

2. If you send in that particular WS game used ball to have Jeter signs it - it will get a hologram affixed to it unless there is one already there -- then they will just issued a plastic cert with it.

There is absolutely no reason for them to MISS or not placing the hologram right after it was signed by Jeter.


Unless the ball was part of the consignment auction on steiner behalf -- then that is another mess on it owns.

[sctizzle]

The ball wouldn't get the Steiner/NYY hologram though as mlb holograms all and sell themselves--they did not sell any direct through their partnership. So it would be correct not to have the 2 game used holograms.

[Wrigley2010]

Steiner does issue holograms and cards for their send in items. You get a generic card back because they will authenticate the signature only, not the item (who knows if you are sending in a knockoff authentic jersey) so there will be nothing about the item exept "Derek Jeter Autograph" or "Derek Jeter Flat Autograph" or something along those lines.

If anyone has any questions for them, instead of everyone just adding more speculation, why not just reach out and ask.

No one here is questioning the generic cert. What is being questioned is a generic cert being issued for an autograph without a hologram to tie it to the item. Also, no one here is questioning the validity of the GU ball as it has an MLB holo. I'm sure every senior member on the forums here is aware Steiner doesn't authenticate GU items.

I see very little speculation here but I do see a lot of concerned collectors as there should be. As you can see the OP did reach out and "ask." This is why we are here questioning a process or lack there of.

Like I said before, this may be more of an auction house issue and less of a Steiner issue. Seems like the consensus here is that Steiner issues holograms with send in items. So who is the auction house that let a Steiner cert pass for authentication of an item without the Steiner holo?

[ShaimOnYou]

Based on what I'm reading here, it appears the OP won an authentic WS game used ball for sure.

The signature, whatever it is, was apparently NOT signed in the presence of Steiner's representatives because a hologram was not affixed to the ball. That brings up three more possibilities.

Either the ball was signed and Steiner's rep simply goofed up the process by letting the ball slip out of their possession without a hologram affixed, or the authentic ball was signed by Jeter somewhere else and the seller chose to use a Steiner signature card from one of his Jeter signed items (maybe an inexpensive photo or batting glove or something of low value) and supplied the generic Steiner signature card with the W.S. signed ball in the hopes it would seriously jack up the value, especially in light of recent hammer prices Jete's stuff is going for.

The last possibility is the signature is bogus and the cert was supplied as a means to get rid of a forgery. I don't believe that is the case, but it is very much a possibility because of the flawed system of issuing generic signature cards. These cards can be used for other purposes, like this last possibility mentioned, because there is no direct "tie" to the item signed.

It's a flawed system everyone in the hobby simply needs to refuse to accept. Otherwise, you've got a situation like jlabadie88 has here. Not good.

[jlabadie88]

I appreciate everyone's discussing this. The images of the item are attached. The item is from lot #342 of the most recent Goldin Auctions. Here's the link:

http://www.goldinauctions.com/2009_Derek_Jeter_Signed_Game_Used_World_Series_Bas-LOT12366.aspx

This is what I have so far. Through email communication, a Steiner representative has stated to me that based on a picture of the certificate and a look at lot #342 of Goldin Auctions, they claim this to be legitimate. Direct from the email, they also said:

"What likely happened is that the original owner of the ball got this baseball from MLB and then sent it to us to get Derek to sign it.
We don’t usually put a Steiner sticker on items for a send-in like that and we just give the COA to confirm we were there when Derek signed it."

I find this disconcerting, as I was under the impression they affixed the hologram to any and all items. But technically in this situation, I feel I can argue that this email correspondence has given me Steiner provenance. At the risk of sounding naïve, here are my thoughts. The ball has MLB authentication attesting to WS game use. While forgery is certainly a possibility, it seems unlikely to me. If the original owner purchased this ball from MLB auctions, they likely paid a decent amount for it and wouldn't gain a significant amount by applying a forged Jeter signature (2014 WS balls on MLB auctions are selling for over $1,000). Two, a Steiner hologram on the ball doesn't do much good now anyway, given the generic certificate.

Thoughts?

[ShaimOnYou]

After seeing the ball, it's appears to be good.

It's an MLB authenticated game used World Series ball for sure. It was pitched by Philadelphia's Cliff Lee to Alex Rodriguez who fouled it back to the backstop in the 9th inning (Oct 28, 2009). A quick review shows this was game 1.

The signature looks good too. Yeah, it's likely all good. The signature card authenticates the signature on the ball and there is no reason to think anything is off here.

Today. With jlabadie88 sharing this with us.

But what about when the day comes he decides to sell it? How many potential buyers will "pull out" because there is no way of verifying THAT card goes with THAT ball?

Alone and in the current form these cards are offered, they represent a poor form of "authentication" for send-in signatures. There should be a photo taken of the item printed on the COA, or a hologram affixed to the ball that corresponds to a COA with a matching printed (or hologramed) code.

Short of that, these signature verification "cards" can end up authenticating all kinds of Derek Jeter signatures that aren't, if they get into the wrong hands.

Why accept a seriously flawed system we collectors don't want, one that compromises the value of the items we pay our hard-earned money for?

Because of this thread, if I ever find myself in the need of using Steiner for obtaining a signature, I will ask them beforehand to place a hologram on the item (in the place of my choice) to verify the signature, which they will have to agree to, or the business won't happen. A generic signature card doesn't work for me.

Chris

[cliffjmp33]

Glad Steiner followed up. Ken has been good at responding on here too, but not sure if you reached out to him or any other Goldin Auction reps.

Nice addition though either way!

[BCowan]

I appreciate everyone's discussing this. The images of the item are attached. The item is from lot #342 of the most recent Goldin Auctions. Here's the link:

http://www.goldinauctions.com/2009_Derek_Jeter_Signed_Game_Used_World_Series_Bas-LOT12366.aspx

This is what I have so far. Through email communication, a Steiner representative has stated to me that based on a picture of the certificate and a look at lot #342 of Goldin Auctions, they claim this to be legitimate. Direct from the email, they also said:

"What likely happened is that the original owner of the ball got this baseball from MLB and then sent it to us to get Derek to sign it.
We don’t usually put a Steiner sticker on items for a send-in like that and we just give the COA to confirm we were there when Derek signed it."

I find this disconcerting, as I was under the impression they affixed the hologram to any and all items. But technically in this situation, I feel I can argue that this email correspondence has given me Steiner provenance. At the risk of sounding naïve, here are my thoughts. The ball has MLB authentication attesting to WS game use. While forgery is certainly a possibility, it seems unlikely to me. If the original owner purchased this ball from MLB auctions, they likely paid a decent amount for it and wouldn't gain a significant amount by applying a forged Jeter signature (2014 WS balls on MLB auctions are selling for over $1,000). Two, a Steiner hologram on the ball doesn't do much good now anyway, given the generic certificate.

Thoughts?

jlabadie88 please contact me directly at bcowan@steinersports.com or 914-307-1004. I'd like to discuss who at Steiner Sports gave you this information as it is incorrect. Without calling the rep out in an online forum I will say that any send in item should also get a Steiner Sports hologram in addition to the COA.

[ShaimOnYou]

jlabadie88 please contact me directly at bcowan@steinersports.com or 914-307-1004. I'd like to discuss who at Steiner Sports gave you this information as it is incorrect. Without calling the rep out in an online forum I will say that any send in item should also get a Steiner Sports hologram in addition to the COA.

What a surprise.

NOT. See what a POOR authentication system leads to?

At least jlabadie88's product will be addressed, and that's commendable on Steiner's part.

Stay tuned. I'm going for some popcorn.........

[marino13]

1. I would have personally requested for a "specific" cert instead of generic. With all the money I am spending for Jeter's autograph along with the pricey item - I better get what I am paying for.


2. Whoever the rep replied with the info -- that was JUST plain wrong and incorrect. I would doubt it that it is someone experienced. Must be one of the newbies. Either way, it is time to re-train them.



Now that we got to the bottom of this situation - I am glad everything will be work out in the end.



As for trying (yes I did say trying) to resell this signed gamer --- it will take someone who doesnt care to investigate further.


Why do I say this? Simple. Why would anyone wants Jeter to sign something that has nothing to do with him. Maybe I am wrong here, but who would pay premium for a "Mets gamer signed by Jeter"?


I guess it is a newbie's mistake or just doesnt care or just someone who did it on impulse --- the only two persons who should have signed the baseball would be Cliff Lee or Alex Rodriguez. But then again, with both mentioned players are not so much in good term with "collectible value" --- the ball might have worth more if it was unsigned instead.


Either way, I am hoping that you will keep this in your collection and pass it down to your family.

[jlabadie88]

I did speak again with Steiner and they were very quick and eager to rectify the situation. And yes, it was a new person who originally gave me that information. I do find it commendable that they jumped in.

Regarding what [B]marino13[B] is saying about Jeter signing the ball as opposed to Lee or Rodriguez, I did consider that when deciding what I would be interested in. I felt in this particular case, as it represents Jeter's final championship, it was more appropriate. If it had been a home run ball by another player, or maybe even a hit, I wouldn't have been interested. But I figured something as trivial as a foul ball wouldn't devalue it or make it less significant. Similar perhaps to having Ripken sign an '83 WS ball (granted, that was his only WS).

Also, given the other options at the time in this price range, there were 2014 Opening Day balls, All-Star baseballs, and baseballs in regular-season games that were H's for Jeter. My personal preference in this case was the WS ball, as I wanted more significance than a regular-season game in this instance, even if it were Jeter specific. I do intend to keep my collection.

[ShaimOnYou]

Now that we got to the bottom of this situation - I am glad everything will be work out in the end.





Will it? I don't see that we've gotten to the end of anything.

If what the Steiner associate BCowan says is true, that every send-in item for signature is to receive a hologram, then what happened with jlabadie88's ball that he bought...that doesn't have one...that was put out there as being signed in front of Steiner Sports?

The ball could have been signed by Jeter (or someone else :eek: ) and just had the Steiner autograph card thrown in to give that added UMPTH to get a higher hammer total in the auction.

Void of that hologram, the ball is a PHAT question mark, except for it's use in game one of the 2009 World Series. And this is why "generic" autograph cards or COA's issued with an item should be shunned by collectors altogether. To avoid these unacceptable circumstances.

What I'm picking up from this comment by BCowan is, if it's true that Steiner does affix a hologram to ever item sent in for signature, then at least their company policy is sound.

Implementing it? Sounds like that's still a work in progress.

[ShaimOnYou]

I did speak again with Steiner and they were very quick and eager to rectify the situation. And yes, it was a new person who originally gave me that information. I do find it commendable that they jumped in.

Regarding what [B]marino13[B] is saying about Jeter signing the ball as opposed to Lee or Rodriguez, I did consider that when deciding what I would be interested in. I felt in this particular case, as it represents Jeter's final championship, it was more appropriate. If it had been a home run ball by another player, or maybe even a hit, I wouldn't have been interested. But I figured something as trivial as a foul ball wouldn't devalue it or make it less significant. Similar perhaps to having Ripken sign an '83 WS ball (granted, that was his only WS).

Also, given the other options at the time in this price range, there were 2014 Opening Day balls, All-Star baseballs, and baseballs in regular-season games that were H's for Jeter. My personal preference in this case was the WS ball, as I wanted more significance than a regular-season game in this instance, even if it were Jeter specific. I do intend to keep my collection.

I totally agree with your reasoning on going through with having Jeter sign the W.S. ball. Being a foul ball which was ultimately hologramed by MLB created the perfect opportunity to have a 2009 World Series ball signed by Jeter. Makes total sense. Would it have been better to have a foul ball by Jeter? Sure, but if there aren't any, this is the next best thing. It is 100% tied to Jeter's last World Series championship by use, so it's all good.

In regards to the Steiner help, what are they going to do? Ask you to send the ball in so they can add a hologram to it? :confused:

Since it's after the fact, they're now acting as a third party authenticator. Who's to say that ball was signed in front of them?? They can't. There's no hologram affixed to the ball. They're simply accepting the fact, as Goldin did in selling it as such, and you did as buying it, that Jeter did in fact sign it in front of a Steiner rep because of the card accompanying it.

If they (Steiner) really want to make it right, have them obtain a signed letter from Jeter, who they deal with, stating that he signed the ball, with his wet-ink signature on it. Then, I'd say you got yourself a keeper.

Good luck.

Chris

[jojac]

Either way its a nice item but from whats in the description I feel they should have had ARod sign it......just my opinion.

[ShaimOnYou]

Either way its a nice item but from whats in the description I feel they should have had ARod sign it......just my opinion.

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[stonedylan]

This ball was not a send in item. This ball was sourced by Steiner.

[ShaimOnYou]

This ball was not a send in item. This ball was sourced by Steiner.

stonedylan,

How do you know that? What bit of evidence are you drawing that conclusion from?

Maybe the prudent thing to do here would be for Ken Goldin to go back to the consignor that placed this ball in Ken's companies auction and ask him what he knows about the ball?

Something about this lack of hologram just stinks. It's not my ball or my problem, but I'm very uncomfortable about the whole thing for jlabadie88's sake. I think he got something far less than he bargained for. And obviously he feels the same, hence this thread.

[stonedylan]

Did someone at Steiner contact you regarding having a hologram placed on the ball?

[yanks12025]

stonedylan,

How do you know that? What bit of evidence are you drawing that conclusion from?

Maybe the prudent thing to do here would be for Ken Goldin to go back to the consignor that placed this ball in Ken's companies auction and ask him what he knows about the ball?

Something about this lack of hologram just stinks. It's not my ball or my problem, but I'm very uncomfortable about the whole thing for jlabadie88's sake. I think he got something far less than he bargained for. And obviously he feels the same, hence this thread.

I don't think it's as big of a deal you make it out to be. The baseball is real and the autograph is real. So what if the stupid hologram ain't on the ball. People have to learn to buy the AUTO not the HOLOGRAM.

And also with the person who said someone probably for Jeter to sign it in person and then just stuck the card with it is probably what happened.

[ShaimOnYou]

I don't think it's as big of a deal you make it out to be. The baseball is real and the autograph is real. So what if the stupid hologram ain't on the ball. People have to learn to buy the AUTO not the HOLOGRAM.

And also with the person who said someone probably for Jeter to sign it in person and then just stuck the card with it is probably what happened.

I agree that the ball is real and the signature most likely is to.

All I'm saying is, who wants a collection full of "probably's"?

So you too agree there's a strong possibility that the dude that consigned this ball just simply "threw in" a Steiner Derek Jeter signature COA card with the ball, probably to maximize the take? No biggie if their both real, right?

Let's just move right past the misrepresentation aspect of it, and step right into the tarnishing of Steiner's reputation because of the selfish act. If that is what happened, Steiner is now answering to someone who ended up with a ball supposedly signed under Steiner supervision as to why there was a break-down in Steiner's company policy to affix a hologram to every send-in item, when in fact Steiner may have never handled this ball or Derek's signature placed on it at all.

I don't know if that's also not as big of a deal to you as I'm making it out to be, but if nothing else, it's unfair to Steiner.

I will add this: If Steiner doesn't affix hologram's to every send-in item when they are offering athlete signatures, then they are dealing with a mess here they caused. And therefore, one could argue, they deserve. And coming up with a generic "Autograph verification card" is just plain stupid unless it has a number matching one on a hologram affixed to the item.

Bottom line is pretty simple. As collectors, don't accept these forms of authentication. Demand better. As yanks12025 stated, this may not be as big a deal to any of us as the ball and signature are likely real. But as collectors, we are all temporary gatekeepers of the collectibles we own. One day, either we or our family will sell these little pieces, so it behooves us to have the best authentication we can to accompany them, right?

Chris

[commando]

But as collectors, we are all temporary gatekeepers of the collectibles we own. One day, either we or our family will sell these little pieces, so it behooves us to have the best authentication we can to accompany them, right?

That sums it all up in a nutshell. Plus, consider this.... Jeter has a beautiful, unique signature. But what about the new generation of players who sign illegible scribble as their autograph? If you pay ANY amount of money for that kind of signature, you'd better have decent proof that it's the real thing when it comes time to move it.

[ShaimOnYou]

That sums it all up in a nutshell. Plus, consider this.... Jeter has a beautiful, unique signature. But what about the new generation of players who sign illegible scribble as their autograph? If you pay ANY amount of money for that kind of signature, you'd better have decent proof that it's the real thing when it comes time to move it.

+1

[ShaimOnYou]

jlababie88,

I for one would be very interested to hear what's going on with your Derek Jeter signed world series ball and Steiner's offer to reach out and help. If willing, would you share a quick update on what they're doing for you?

Thanks,

Chris

[yanks12025]

This doesn't deal with the baseball but just steiner. But steiner screwed me over. Last weekend I ordered a yankee stadium wall listed on their site for a discount price because of the holidays sale. When I bought it was listed as in stock and after I finished my purchase it changed to out of stock because they probably had only one. So acouple days later I get tracking for another item I bought but not the wall. So I asked about my wall order. And they now say it was out of order when I bought it. They said they sent a email informing me it was actually out of order when I purchased it but I never received anything from them till I asked.

Maybe they should fix their site, it's not right I buy something that's says in stock and it changes after my purchase then tell me They don't actually have the item. They did offer another wall section but it was 9 feet long compared to the one I wanted was only 4 feet.