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teddy406
12-04-2015, 10:56 AM
How many people agree with me that Maris and Aaron are still the HR Kings? In my mind, there is no doubt!

coxfan
12-04-2015, 02:17 PM
When Hank visited Columbia, SC a couple of years ago, the crowd of several thousands overwhelmingly cheered when the MC introduced him as the true HR Champ. But we should also recall that he holds the MLB record for total bases, which I believe he once said was his favorite record bcause it reflects all aspects of his hitting. ( I think Musial is second there.) Hank also holds the MLB record for RBI. He holds the MLB record for extra-base hits, and is 3rd all-time in base hits, which include 3016 hits that were not HR's! ( 3771 hits with the HR's added in.)

And he did all that despite receivng innumerable death threats, plus an apparent attempt to kidnap his daughter to hold her hostage and force hm to quit before passing Ruth. I believe Maris is the official AL record-holder, since Fay Vincent reversed the absurd "some distinguishing mark" ruling that left Ruth's record standing next to Maris, without consideting that all season and career records, not just HR's, would logically be affected by the change in schedule.

sox83cubs84
12-04-2015, 11:00 PM
I still consider them to be.

Dave Miedema

Roady
12-05-2015, 08:50 AM
I think Aaron is but never thought Maris was.

Now bear with me and don't get the pitchforks out too soon.

I think Maris and Mantle were taking steroids in '61, remember Mantle admitted to the injections from his Doctor when he was in the hospital at the end of the year. Many believe that in 1961, during his home run race with Roger Maris, the reason Mickey Mantle developed a sudden abscess that kept him on the bench came from an infected needle used by Max Jacobson, a doctor who injected Mantle with steroids and speed.

And Maris' hair was coming out during the year in patches. He said because of stress but he never suffered from it before or after that year. Interesting.
And before the alopecia crowd yells too loud I have had alopecia and know exactly what it is.

Look at some of Maris' HR's and the peak in 61 and slopes before or after.
1957 - 14 - 358 ab's - Hr every 25.57 ab's
1958 - 28 - 583 ab's - Hr every 20.82 ab's
1959 - 16 - 433 ab's - Hr every 27.07 ab's
1960 - 39 - 499 ab's - Hr every 12.79 ab's - HUGE increase
1961 - 61 - 590 ab's - HR every 9.67 ab's - WOW
1962 - 33 - 590 ab's - HR every 17.88 ab's -
1963 - 23 - 315 ab's - HR every 13.67 ab's
1964 - 26 - 513 ab's - Hr every 19.76 ab's

So we are to beleive that a man doubled his HR output suddenly after 1959? What has recent history told us about atletes who have done that? Barry Bonds, Chris Davis, etc.........
And dare I say it, Griffey Jr., you should dig into his numbers and see what some others see. A 20 HR a year hitter becomes a 40+ HR hitter after 4 years, kind of like Bonds huh? Find historical examples of that happening in baseball before the 60's.

Not to even mention the fact that Maris' season was longer than Babe Ruths giving him those needed extra at bats to pass him. Of course you can't fault him for that.

I admit that I have zero proof that Maris was on steroids but I think the probability is that he was. Baseball fans and especially invested fans such as ourselves have a hard time coming to terms with the facts that our heroes and especially those we have spent thousands on may not be what we thought they were. The investment we have in them and the possibility that investment may lose money can blind us and make us excuse what is staring us in the face.

Roady
12-05-2015, 09:24 AM
One more thing to think about. Remember before the start of the 61 season Mantle and Maris kept talking about challenging Babes single season HR record? Kind of like Mark McGwire kept talking about it before the 98 season.
So how did these know they would challenge it? Seems like an odd thing to focus on during spring training doesn't it? How did McGwire know? Maybe they all knew something we didn't.

teddy406
12-05-2015, 11:58 AM
Ha. Really Roady? That's hilarious.

KGoldin
12-06-2015, 03:33 PM
Based on the theories in this thread ( and I'm not disagreeing with the concept) than Hank Greenberg who was pitched around once he got to 50 home runs because they didn't want a Jew to break Ruth's record, should be considered to have at least a piece of the hr records for a single season

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/sports/baseball/21score.html?_r=0

teddy406
12-07-2015, 02:13 PM
I'm disagreeing 100%. I've read every Maris and Mantle book out there. Every book about the 1961 season. Never once, ever, was there even a mention by an author, researcher, reporter, player, or teammate, that sniffed steroid use on the Yankees by those 2 or anybody else in 1961. Period. It wasn't a problem on the Yankees or even in baseball in 1961. Nobody wanted Maris to break the Babe's record, so if there was even the slightest suspicion of cheating going on, all the reporters and press would have jumped all over this. Never Happened.
The shot that was taken by Mantle, that got infected, was a doctor that announcer Mel Allen used all the time. He referred Mantle to this doctor for a shot that would help cure his cold and flu that he was fighting during the HR race. Mel Allen has verified this story numerous times. So you're basically saying that Mel Allen is covering for Mantle and/or that Mantle was getting steroid shots from Mel Allen's doctor? Never Happened.
Third thing wrong with Roady's theory is that Maris was concerned and talked about breaking the Babe's record. Maris never talked about breaking the Babe's record and never even thought he had a realistic chance at it in 1960. Roady said he did. If you know anything about Maris, he could have cared less about this record his first year in NY. He didn't even want to be in NY. He was just trying to fit in that first season and he it "only" 39 in '60. Like I said, I have read everything about Maris, and it wasn't anything he even thought about until reporters started bugging him about it in the middle of 1961. He only had 3 HRs in the first month of the season in 1961. The Babe stuff started when he and Mantle were both ahead of Babe's pace in the middle of the 61 season.
Just a crazy, crazy theory-that I HAVE NEVER heard in my life until this post.
So now I'm guessing Pete Rose was really framed too??

teddy406
12-07-2015, 02:23 PM
As for his amazing season in 1961-those amazing seasons happen here and there throughout our baseball history. Ted Williams was juicing when he suddenly hit .406 in 1941? Check out his BA in 1940 and 1942.
.344 in 1940
.356 in 1942
Must have been juicing in 1941 because his average jumped 60 points.
We could point out hundreds of these seasons by different players throughout baseball's long history.
Really, the facts are that steroids were never in baseball until our man Canseco introduced them into the sport in the mid 1980s.
Let's give Maris his due.

BirdsOnBat
12-07-2015, 03:52 PM
Really, the facts are that steroids were never in baseball until our man Canseco introduced them into the sport in the mid 1980s.


I've read a decent amount of accounts that peg Brian Downing circa 1982 as the culprit. His number shift seem to support this claim as well as photos.

Roady
12-07-2015, 04:19 PM
As for his amazing season in 1961-those amazing seasons happen here and there throughout our baseball history. Ted Williams was juicing when he suddenly hit .406 in 1941? Check out his BA in 1940 and 1942.
.344 in 1940
.356 in 1942
Must have been juicing in 1941 because his average jumped 60 points.
We could point out hundreds of these seasons by different players throughout baseball's long history.
Really, the facts are that steroids were never in baseball until our man Canseco introduced them into the sport in the mid 1980s.
Let's give Maris his due.
You are comparing who many consider the greatest hitter and owner of a lifetime .344 BA to a guy who had one great season in an otherwse mediocre career?
Really?

Okay, if that's your take. I said I had zero proof and I don't that Maris and Mantle was on steroids. But maybe you should read some of Mantles own words as to why he was in the hospital. Maybe it was all a coincidence that Mantle and Maris were talking about challenging the HR record before the 61 season even started.

And steroids have been around much longer than 1982 folks. Come on that is easy to dispute. The internet is full of info on it. Now if your position is that steroids have only been used in baseball since 1982 or some other year then I would love to see the proof on that. You cannot prove that any more than I can prove Mantle and Maris were using in 61. So lets not get too carried away with stating specifics that we cannot back up.

I knew I would catch a lot of heat for this and that is okay.

Ken, the Jew reference was not worth commenting on. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but a swing and a miss on your end buddy. It wasn't funny or relevant. It was kind of creepy.

Roady
12-07-2015, 04:32 PM
Okay Ken, just kidding about the creepy part. :D

teddy406
12-07-2015, 06:06 PM
Roady. I'm glad you don't believe that the M&M boys were on Roids. That was just really out of left field. Maris was not a one year wonder, but he was hurt most of his career. He was MVP in 1960 with 39 HRs and 100+rbis. He hit 61 in 61. Then the next year hit 33 and had 100 rbis in 1962. All his other years he missed significant time with the Yankees. After he hurt his wrist in 1965, he was never the same. Lost all his power. Without all the injuries before the Yanks, during the Yanks, and with the Cards, I think he would be a definite HOF. But we'll never know. It was also a perfect fit for Maris in Yankee Stadium. Short porch in RF and he was a great pull hitter. And what was huge too, was MANTLE batting behind him. He always got pitched to.
I think Roids were around in the 60's but mostly in the Soviet Union, and in a few sports such as the Olympics and Football. It took awhile before they found there way into baseball.

KGoldin
12-07-2015, 10:22 PM
You are comparing who many consider the greatest hitter and owner of a lifetime .344 BA to a guy who had one great season in an otherwse mediocre career?
Really?

Okay, if that's your take. I said I had zero proof and I don't that Maris and Mantle was on steroids. But maybe you should read some of Mantles own words as to why he was in the hospital. Maybe it was all a coincidence that Mantle and Maris were talking about challenging the HR record before the 61 season even started.

And steroids have been around much longer than 1982 folks. Come on that is easy to dispute. The internet is full of info on it. Now if your position is that steroids have only been used in baseball since 1982 or some other year then I would love to see the proof on that. You cannot prove that any more than I can prove Mantle and Maris were using in 61. So lets not get too carried away with stating specifics that we cannot back up.

I knew I would catch a lot of heat for this and that is okay.

Ken, the Jew reference was not worth commenting on. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but a swing and a miss on your end buddy. It wasn't funny or relevant. It was kind of creepy.
I'm jewish
I wasn't using it derogatory way, I was saying it like they said it in the 1930s, " didn't want a Jew to break Ruth's record"

Roady
12-07-2015, 11:06 PM
I'm jewish
I wasn't using it derogatory way, I was saying it like they said it in the 1930s, " didn't want a Jew to break Ruth's record"
Oh okay. I have read some about Greenberg and while I have read that he was shown some racism I didn't know it went that far.

Roady
12-07-2015, 11:09 PM
Roady. I'm glad you don't believe that the M&M boys were on Roids. That was just really out of left field. Maris was not a one year wonder, but he was hurt most of his career. He was MVP in 1960 with 39 HRs and 100+rbis. He hit 61 in 61. Then the next year hit 33 and had 100 rbis in 1962. All his other years he missed significant time with the Yankees. After he hurt his wrist in 1965, he was never the same. Lost all his power. Without all the injuries before the Yanks, during the Yanks, and with the Cards, I think he would be a definite HOF. But we'll never know. It was also a perfect fit for Maris in Yankee Stadium. Short porch in RF and he was a great pull hitter. And what was huge too, was MANTLE batting behind him. He always got pitched to.
I think Roids were around in the 60's but mostly in the Soviet Union, and in a few sports such as the Olympics and Football. It took awhile before they found there way into baseball.

But I do think the M&M boys were on roids, at least in 1961. I just said that I have zero proof, just anecdotal evidence at best. I could never prove it in court.

Roady
12-07-2015, 11:15 PM
Oh, and anabolic steroids were first developed in the 1950's.

teddy406
12-07-2015, 11:17 PM
Greenberg faced a lot of racism. M & M didn't even know what Roids were, my man. Maris was smoking 3 packs a day all during his NY years. But, people can believe whatever they want Roady. Was Pete Rose framed too? Ha. Talk to ya later.

Roady
12-07-2015, 11:29 PM
Greenberg faced a lot of racism. M & M didn't even know what Roids were, my man. Maris was smoking 3 packs a day all during his NY years. But, people can believe whatever they want Roady. Was Pete Rose framed too? Ha. Talk to ya later.
I try not to talk in absolutes such as M&M didn't even know what roids were. That would require me to know their thoughts and that is impossible to know.
Read up on Mantle's doctor who injected him in 61. I believe they were both experimenting that year with roids, I could be wrong. Probably doesn't matter in the end.
Pete Rose had an addiction to gambling. I have no idea if he bet against his own team as some say he must have. I know betting of any kind is against the rules of baseball and there is a sign in every locker room reminding players of that fact.
Rose had an ego that made him one of the best there ever was on the diamond. Unfortunately that ego like many others was also self destructive.
I truly hope Rose gets into the HOF before he dies or I die. I think he has paid his dues. I would also like to see Shoeless Joe Jackson get in.

cjclong
12-18-2015, 11:21 AM
Regarding the charge, with no evidence, that Mantle and Maris were steroid users in 1961. There have been numerous incidents over the years where players in all sports had a career year that they never equaled again. Nothing unusual about that. In 1961 not only was the season increased to 162 games from 154 but the American League added two new teams, the LA Angeles and the Washington Senators. All the existing AL teams had to put up players on their teams that were subject to draft by the new teams. This diluted the pitching as their were a number of pitchers that year in the AL that would have been in the minors otherwise. So the pitching was not as good that year and over a longer season. A number of players like Norm Cash and Jim Gentile and John Blanchard had career years that they did not repeat again, not just Maris. Maris was playing against inferior pitching over a longer season and, because he was batting ahead of Mantle, he was getting good pitches to hit. No one was going to walk Maris to pitch to Mantle and Maris did not receive a single intentional walk all year. Also, Maris was a dead pull hitter in the old Yankee stadium where the right field line with a low wall started at about 296 feet and only about 340 in right center, a huge aid to a hitter like Maris. You can call Maris record at the time a fluke, but you can't say he didn't earn it honestly (well I guess you can because you did). As for Mantle, he had hit over 50 home runs in 1956 in a shorter season. Was he using steroids in 56 too?
Roady, in your first post you said you "think" Mantle and Maris used steroids. How would you like it if someone accused you of something negative with no real proof, just speculation, because they "think" you did something wrong. At least in the court system we have to prove something, not just speculate with no hard evidence, but I guess that doesn't apply to a sports blog.

teddy406
12-18-2015, 12:09 PM
Roady is the only one in the world who holds to this theory. It's funny I think. BUT in regards to the inferior pitching in 1961 because of the expansion season-that has been researched and the facts show that the pitching was no better or worse than any other expansion year. There has been plenty of expansion years after 1961 and HR records were not set again in those seasons. We got to quit finding ways to discount what Maris did in 1961. The best two reasons: Maris had an unbelievable year getting the ball up in air and over the fence during his second MVP Season. 2nd-he had Mantle batting behind him so he got pitched to. I just leave it at that.
HR CHAMP MARIS

cjclong
12-18-2015, 06:07 PM
I'm not knocking Maris. He hit 61 home runs and nobody else did that for over 30 years. But you partially make my point. You said the pitching was no worse than any other expansion year. BUT the pitching in expansion years is generally worse than non expansion years which gives hitters an advantage which Maris took advantage of as did several other American League hitters. Maris hit in an expansion year, he was a pull hitter in Yankee Stadium with its short right field and he hit ahead of Mantle and got good pitches to hit. And its to his credit that he took advantage of those things. My point was that if you are looking for reasons Maris hit 61 home runs that year those are legitimate reasons that Maris broke the record rather than the bogus steroid theory. Not intended to be a knock on Maris.

Roady
12-18-2015, 11:12 PM
But as you stated, this is not a court of law and it is a sports collectors forum.

As far as someone accusing me of something with no proof, so what? Do you think their families care what I say? I wouldn't.

I understand some of your heroes have to remain unblemished in your eyes. Trust me, they don't need you to protect them. Their are no infallible men. We all are fallible. The sooner you see that the sooner you will see that nobody needs you to take up their cross and carry it for them. One day none of this will make any difference at all to any of us, just ask Mantle and Maris if you see them again.

I said I thought they were experimenting with steroids and said I based that on what I have observed and read. I said I have zero evidence. I didn't say I knew it and had proof.

I will say that you brought up some very good points and they should be considered. Some of them I knew but the reminder helps. I thank you for that as I can never read or learn enough of a subject I am interested in.

Always remember that none of us are as smart as we think we are. When you meet a man who claims to know everything, run away from him as fast as you can.

Roady
12-18-2015, 11:16 PM
Roady is the only one in the world who holds to this theory. It's funny I think. BUT in regards to the inferior pitching in 1961 because of the expansion season-that has been researched and the facts show that the pitching was no better or worse than any other expansion year. There has been plenty of expansion years after 1961 and HR records were not set again in those seasons. We got to quit finding ways to discount what Maris did in 1961. The best two reasons: Maris had an unbelievable year getting the ball up in air and over the fence during his second MVP Season. 2nd-he had Mantle batting behind him so he got pitched to. I just leave it at that.
HR CHAMP MARIS

If you think I am the only one in the world who thinks this way you don't read very much.
But don't let that stop you from telling tall tales while demanding proof from me.

Roady
12-18-2015, 11:23 PM
I stated my position and I am going to leave it there. No need for an argument over it.

I hope you guys are right and I am wrong. But I know some things you don't.

cjclong
12-19-2015, 09:34 AM
If you "know some things we don't" then tell us. I'm never impressed by the old I know things I can't tell. I suspect anything you "know" won't violate any national security secrets. And yes, I am a fan of the 61 Yankees but I don't idolize athletes. They are people and many of them are flawed human beings just as most people are.

teddy406
12-19-2015, 10:55 AM
So where's the evidence? I'm just hearing strange theories, that NO ONE else has ever put forth, but you. Where are the teammates and reporters and doctors from 1961 saying "We are pretty sure or know that both these guys were Roiding." Show me that instead of your area 51 theories and I'd listen. That only thing Maris was jacked up on was 3 packs of Cig's a day. Mantle alcohol.
61

coxfan
12-19-2015, 12:57 PM
I remember the 1961 season well. The main thing I recall about Maris is that he adopted an upper-cut swing to create more big flies, and he got zero intentional walks thanks to Mantle.

Ford Frick's ruling that a new season HR record in 162 games would need "some distinguishing mark" was absurd, and an inexcusable bias from a man who'd worked with Ruth. Frick's ruling created confusion in the record books for years, since it would logically apply to all season and career records, not just to HR's. But Frick, who was pandering to traditionalists who'd deified Ruth, didn't care about the logic.

Ironically the new 162-game schedule, which was so criticized by traditionalists at first, has survived through many changes over the last 53 years.

teddy406
12-19-2015, 02:18 PM
All true COXFAN. But one thing about the intentionial walks: Though not one intentionial walk in 1961-he was pitched around or carefully pitched to for almost 100 walks on the season. Most people don't realize this.
61

cjclong
12-20-2015, 11:10 AM
Maris got a number of walks in 61 but nobody was "pitching around him" to get to Mantle and with hitters like Berra, Howard and Skowron hitting behind Mantle.

teddy406
12-20-2015, 12:21 PM
Agreed. Just meant that they pitched both Mantle and Maris carefully in 1961. That's the most walks that Maris ever had in his career.

Roady
12-20-2015, 12:35 PM
So where's the evidence? I'm just hearing strange theories, that NO ONE else has ever put forth, but you. Where are the teammates and reporters and doctors from 1961 saying "We are pretty sure or know that both these guys were Roiding." Show me that instead of your area 51 theories and I'd listen. That only thing Maris was jacked up on was 3 packs of Cig's a day. Mantle alcohol.
61
You keep saying that no one else has had this theory but me. That is a blatant lie. It has been around for years.
Implying that I am making it up out of thin air or am crazy is not conductive to an honest conversation.
I am not going to waste anything else on you. Who can have a conversation with such a militant and untruthful person?
Enjoy your bliss. :)

Roady
12-20-2015, 12:39 PM
Oh, and for what I know, you don't get to demand me tell you anything.

My family knows the truth about 1961 because they were directly involved in it. That is all you need to know.

teddy406
12-20-2015, 12:42 PM
Post your evidence on here please then. Never seen or heard this crazy "theory" in my whole life until you mentioned it in on here. I've read every possible thing out there on Maris, Mantle, and the Yank's in 1961 and a steroid tie NEVER has been put forth. Let's see what ya got. And I'm not talking your Area 51 theories about an infected shot on a doctor visit and Maris losing a little hair as proof. PROOF!

teddy406
12-20-2015, 12:43 PM
Wow. Ok. You've already said you had Zero proof, so I'll accept that as your final answer. Nuff said.

Roady
12-20-2015, 12:45 PM
Post your evidence on here please then. Never seen or heard this crazy "theory" in my whole life until you mentioned it in on here. I've read every possible thing out there on Maris, Mantle, and the Yank's in 1961 and a steroid tie NEVER has been put forth. Let's see what ya got. And I'm not talking your Area 51 theories about an infected shot on a doctor visit and Maris losing a little hair as proof. PROOF!

Type in "Maris Mantle steroids" into google. You do have google don't you? Or any other search engine for that matter.

Read up.

Roady
12-20-2015, 12:46 PM
Wow. Ok. You've already said you had Zero proof, so I'll accept that as your final answer. Nuff said.
You should, like I said, I have zero proof.

That doesn't mean it may not be true.

Roady
12-20-2015, 12:48 PM
You are just too enamored with your heroes. It is useless to talk to you and for that reason I bid you a Merry Christmas.

I will not re-visit this thread.

Surprised I haven't gotten a warning yet. Every time I engage in this type of discussion someone runs to the mods and cries. :rolleyes:
Better stop before my account is threatened.

teddy406
12-20-2015, 01:00 PM
Well, you haven't added anything legit or truthful or factual to any of the threads you've written so far, so why would they care? Let's stick to the real user of Roids: Bonds, Sosa, Arod, Clemens, etc.
Later,
G

teddy406
12-20-2015, 01:11 PM
I've googled everything. Really-zero or nothing- is offered about what you are saying. Put this Area 51 scandle to bed please. It's a joke.

Doodles
02-09-2016, 11:26 PM
Roady is not the only one who believes that Maris and Mantle may have had help in 1961...I have suspected it for years.

I don't think steroids were being used back then, but it is a fact testosterone was being injected by weightlifters in the 1950s. Hair loss is a direct side effect. The accepted story is that Maris' hair fell out due to stress. I challenge someone to name any other person in the 140 years of professional baseball whose hair fell out due to stress. Mickey had a hip abscess from an injection...they admit to that. I don't recall many other cases of that either.

I've heard Mickey Mantle experts innocently admit that if Mickey thought he could take something to hit more HRs, he would probably have tried it. If they were taking stuff, Maris clearly was uncomfortable with the limelight and stopped...he hit 33 HR the next year. If a guy had an outlier year like that in the 90s, he would surely be accused of something.

cjclong
02-10-2016, 06:56 PM
So were players like Norm Cash and Jim Gentile who also had career years in 1961 using PED's? And why did these then young players stop after that year? They never had a year like 1961 again. Or could it have been weak expansion year pitching from pitchers who would not have been in the majors other wise on all the AL teams and not PED's that led to career years by a number of hitters in 1961. Was Mantle on something with his 50 plus home runs and .350 average in 1956. Hell, maybe Ruth was on steroids when he hit his 60 home runs, about as many as some whole teams hit in 1927. And, best guess of all, it was PED's that caused Lou Gehrig's death. There is always someone to trash the accomplishments of others with no proof, just speculation.

Doodles
02-12-2016, 07:08 PM
So were players like Norm Cash and Jim Gentile who also had career years in 1961 using PED's? And why did these then young players stop after that year? They never had a year like 1961 again. Or could it have been weak expansion year pitching from pitchers who would not have been in the majors other wise on all the AL teams and not PED's that led to career years by a number of hitters in 1961. Was Mantle on something with his 50 plus home runs and .350 average in 1956. Hell, maybe Ruth was on steroids when he hit his 60 home runs, about as many as some whole teams hit in 1927. And, best guess of all, it was PED's that caused Lou Gehrig's death. There is always someone to trash the accomplishments of others with no proof, just speculation.

Any given year, many will have career years. If the poor pitching explains Maris huge jump, why didn't Killebrew, Collavito or Brooks Robinson have similar years?

cjclong
03-04-2016, 06:49 PM
Not every player has an exceptional year every year regardless of the conditions. Brooks Robinson was a relatively new player in the league and didn't come into his own until the next year when he began to hit for power and was never a guy that hit more than the low 20's in home runs in his best years. Colavito did have a career year for home runs, 45. He never hit 40 again. So he could well be regarded as another one who had a big year he didn't repeat. No matter what someone does there is always someone who want to speculate they cheated in some way with no hard evidence.