Retail cleats "game used" by McGwire?

[LarryWalkerFan]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/172588993308

Seller says that I wasn't the winner, and it's already sold, so he doesn't care to answer questions. He stated the cleats were from 1999.

Tag appears to date to 1997 Nov - 1998 Jan. I don't know, but other cleats I've seen sold had special promo tags. Do the Cards usually offer up retail tagged cleats?

[seanbaseball]

FYI i sold about 60 pairs of Cardinal game worn cleats so far this year. U should go through the other 59 pair and check for use/style/year etc and create a spreadsheet. This would be an excellent use of your time.:D

[LarryWalkerFan]

I sold the cleats. Thanks for annoying me and wasting my time. I did not sell the cleats as a specific year if u check the auction. I do not have to answer 20 questions from someone that did not buy them. Get a life. You also told me u were just taking a survey of what year i thought they were as u were tracking game used cleats worn by Mcgwire......apparently a lie! Dont post on here criticizing my item when u are obviously clueless.

Actually, I was trying to compile information, since VSA sold a similar looking pair of cleats a while back with a questionable McGwire signature. I was looking for info, but your responses were unnecessarily defensive, which made me question the validity of the item.

Also, you messaged me that it was a 1999 cleat, through eBay's messaging system.

[seanbaseball]

Compile information? On cleats that sold? Interesting. These are the VSA cleats i believe. They have a Lou Sampson LOA for game use and a JSA for the signature. I bought these in a group of many other cleats. I chose to wipe off the signature since I didnt think it looked good even though JSA passed it. By doing this it meant I would sell them for less $ but I wouldnt be selling something that I thought was questionable. I answered your first couple questions through ebay but once we moved past that i told u to conduct your own "research" that they were sold and there is no point in me wasting my time. I told you that "i was told they were 1999" and in the auction listing I didnt list a year as i wasnt positive. I sold about 400 game used items on ebay so far this year and if I had to answer multiple questions from people that didnt bid or win my items I would have zero time for anything else.
I still feel I owe u nothing and dealt with you and tried to satisfy your questions. I have zero obligation to even answer your questions. The buyer asked questions and then won the auction. Call Lou Sampson and question him about the cleats and or call VSA.

[LarryWalkerFan]

Compile information? On cleats that sold? Interesting. These are the VSA cleats i believe. They have a Lou Sampson LOA for game use and a JSA for the signature.

You probably should have returned them to VSA rather than wiping off the signature. Lou Lampson items tend toward questionable. I think, at one point, he was one of the most respected sources for autographed (and game used) items, but it turned out that much of his items were forgeries or fakes.

Now knowing that it is the same pair from VSA, I'm pretty certain they weren't McGwire gamers. I'm not faulting you directly, but the item (given its origins) is questionable.

[joecoco]

That's funny Ben - great Clemente by the way. Not to add gasoline on, troll, or whatever to this thread, but I purchased a few bats from Sean this year and the interactions were nothing short of fantastic. He was completely fair and I could see him taking less for an item to preserve integrity. I just thought I would put my experience out there.

[LarryWalkerFan]

That's funny Ben - great Clemente by the way. Not to add gasoline on, troll, or whatever to this thread, but I purchased a few bats from Sean this year and the interactions were nothing short of fantastic. He was completely fair and I could see him taking less for an item to preserve integrity. I just thought I would put my experience out there.

As I stated before, I'm not questioning Sean. I'm specifically questioning how often retail cleats would be game used by McGwire.

[panthrotc]

Someone post a pic of the signed cleats before the signature was removed. I can only imagine how bad the sig was as McGwire's auto when he signed red cleats was normally gorgeous as his late 90's style full signature was a thing of it's own. And Btw, McGwire gu cleats from his cardinal years were obtained directly from him as gifts and almost always he added a full name sig. Just my 2 cents. I have over 300 of his signatures. Would to see a pic of the auto that was removed.

[3arod13]

Someone post a pic of the signed cleats before the signature was removed. I can only imagine how bad the sig was as McGwire's auto when he signed red cleats was normally gorgeous as his late 90's style full signature was a thing of it's own. And Btw, McGwire gu cleats from his cardinal years were obtained directly from him as gifts and almost always he added a full name sig. Just my 2 cents. I have over 300 of his signatures. Would to see a pic of the auto that was removed.

300 signatures? Wow! What is your earliest full signature. I have some McGwire signatures and this is the best full signature I've come across. Please show your best full signature. Thanks!

[seanbaseball]

Someone post a pic of the signed cleats before the signature was removed. I can only imagine how bad the sig was as McGwire's auto when he signed red cleats was normally gorgeous as his late 90's style full signature was a thing of it's own. And Btw, McGwire gu cleats from his cardinal years were obtained directly from him as gifts and almost always he added a full name sig. Just my 2 cents. I have over 300 of his signatures. Would to see a pic of the auto that was removed.

Here they are

[seanbaseball]

You probably should have returned them to VSA rather than wiping off the signature. Lou Lampson items tend toward questionable. I think, at one point, he was one of the most respected sources for autographed (and game used) items, but it turned out that much of his items were forgeries or fakes.

Now knowing that it is the same pair from VSA, I'm pretty certain they weren't McGwire gamers. I'm not faulting you directly, but the item (given its origins) is questionable.

As stated earlier i bought them with a group of 400 other items. Didnt feel it was still VSA's problem for what i deemed to be a bad signature. JSA passed it but i just couldnt buy into that. Next time lets not imply that im passing off bogus items. Ive thrown away items in the past that were bad. Not too long ago I bought a Torre game used bat for $1200 that i then resold. When the buyer sent it to PSA Taube indicated that the "use" was faked. I immediately gave the buyer a full refund and since I couldnt relocate the original seller I sold the bat for $200 on ebay as a game issued bat with faked use. I also told this buyer that he better not try to resell as game used as the bat was marked by Taube and that I would be watching auctions etc. I try to do the right thing when buying and selling even if that means losing a bunch. Plenty of bad sellers out there, concentrate on them

[mbrieve]

Personally, I believe that the removal of the signature alters the item and should have been disclosed in the listing. I understand the reason for removing the signature, but, honestly, something like a bogus signature on an item raises red flags for the overall authenticity.

[seanbaseball]

Personally, I believe that the removal of the signature alters the item and should have been disclosed in the listing. I understand the reason for removing the signature, but, honestly, something like a bogus signature on an item raises red flags for the overall authenticity.

JSA passed the signature but if it was a good one it was awful. Signed cleats sell for much much more than unsigned so if the sig was no good I believe it was just to enhance the value as opposed to creating a fully fake item. And for what they sold for u would be hard pressed to go to a shoe store and buy nice cleats! The cleats were altered when they were signed and i removed the alteration.

[mbrieve]

JSA passed the signature but if it was a good one it was awful. Signed cleats sell for much much more than unsigned so if the sig was no good I believe it was just to enhance the value as opposed to creating a fully fake item. And for what they sold for u would be hard pressed to go to a shoe store and buy nice cleats! The cleats were altered when they were signed and i removed the alteration. I conclude by saying

So, when should alterations/restorations be disclosed? Why wouldn't you err on the side of full disclosure?

If a jersey is restored to it's original condition by adding back the original name and/or patches, should the seller have to disclose?

If cleats came without shoelaces and a new set is put in, should the seller have to disclose?

If an item was signed with a personalization that was later removed leaving only the signature, should the seller have to disclose?

If a bat is broken into two pieces and glued back together, should the seller have to disclose?

[seanbaseball]

So, when should alterations/restorations be disclosed? Why wouldn't you err on the side of full disclosure?

If a jersey is restored to it's original condition by adding back the original name and/or patches, should the seller have to disclose?

If cleats came without shoelaces and a new set is put in, should the seller have to disclose?

If an item was signed with a personalization that was later removed leaving only the signature, should the seller have to disclose?

If a bat is broken into two pieces and glued back together, should the seller have to disclose?

Adding back patches/names/numbers is altering by adding non original items to make a jersey look original. Of course this should be disclosed

Removing a personalization? No, not if its completely gone. If its gone then its.......................gone/not there/no longer exists.

Broken bat. Yes as once again u would be altering the bat to make it look original.

These cleats werent worn by Mcgwire with a signature on them. The signature was added either by Mcgwire or someone else. If I sell a car that had a good scratch and i buff it out or touch it up do I have to disclose that there used to be a scratch right here? No. How about if I sell a home and dont disclose that I cleaned up a stain on the carpet? Hopefully u get the idea. Bottom line is that I did the honorable thing and removed what I thought was a bad signature which resulted in me making less money. I could have sold with the signature and just stood behind the JSA letter and I guarantee I would have sold for more money. My final word is: I dont care anymore and am moving on. LOL.:)

[seanbaseball]

Oh and shoelaces? Yes as your adding a non original item to make the cleats look all original.

[LarryWalkerFan]

And getting back on track...

Did the Cardinals or McGwire regularly (or even sparsely) use retail cleats? Jeff? Anyone knowledgeable about the Cards?

[LarryWalkerFan]

I regularly feel this way reading your posts on this topic.

You feel that my posts about retail cleats being game used is off topic in a thread about game used retail cleats?

[Juicyfruit66]

Normally guu doesnt sound like 14 year old facebook feeds, what is going on? Can't everyone discuss a topic properly?

[admin_old]

I think the original poster has a valid question. Sean, If these are indeed retail cleats, what information do you have on the Cardinals or Mac wearing retail cleats in a game? Or did you sell them as GU because VSA did? I know you're a big cards collector, I think the details would be helpful, especially to others considering cleats.

Btw... Let's stop the personal attacks and discuss the topic. I'm sure people are interested in the tagging and use... since that's what the forum is about.

[seanbaseball]

I think the original poster has a valid question. Sean, If these are indeed retail cleats, what information do you have on the Cardinals or Mac wearing retail cleats in a game? Or did you sell them as GU because VSA did? I know you're a big cards collector, I think the details would be helpful, especially to others considering cleats.

Btw... Let's stop the personal attacks and discuss the topic. I'm sure people are interested in the tagging and use... since that's what the forum is about.

Look I bought these cleats in a big collection of 400 items. The original owner bought a lot of cleats and knew that area well. I sold them as game used cleats as they had authentication. I do not collect cleats and own ZERO. I do not know about MAC specifically but I do know plenty of Cardinal players that wear cleats that were sent to them and I doubt MAC was an exception to this practice. The team does not buy the cleats for the players and the players often sell their cleats through some sort of agent after they are done with them. I know Molina does. The Cardinals never get cleats to resell as the players own them and do with them as they wish. I have been given this information direct from Cardinals Authentics store. That is all the knowledge I have on Cards cleats. Any implication that I sold something wrong as a way to make $100 is bull. I sold the cleats as game worn with information from a cleat guy and an LOA. Ive heard zero that tells me Im wrong except from a member who questions them but has offered ZERO information or evidence to the contrary. I shall once again attempt to move on....................

[admin_old]

I don't think he is accusing you of anything, at least what I see here. He's asking questions. I think members can draw their own conclusion at this point, based on whatever cleat knowledge they have. You're certainly free to move on.

Doug

[STLHAMMER32]

I don't think he is accusing you of anything, at least what I see here. He's asking questions. I think members can draw their own conclusion at this point, based on whatever cleat knowledge they have. You're certainly free to move on.

Doug

Poster states "I was looking for info, but your responses were unnecessarily defensive, which made me question the validity of the item."

Sounds like an accusation to me.....

[seanbaseball]

Poster states "I was looking for info, but your responses were unnecessarily defensive, which made me question the validity of the item."

Sounds like an accusation to me.....


Yes. Thank you! Also interesting that a couple people who defended my character (without profanity:) ) had their posts deleted. One just merely stated that he had good buying experiences with me and that he could see me going out of my way to do the right thing........wonder how that violated the forum rules?????

[Juicyfruit66]

Mine got deleted for just trying to keep things civil....i think....

[admin_old]

Yes. Thank you! Also interesting that a couple people who defended my character (without profanity:) ) had their posts deleted. One just merely stated that he had good buying experiences with me and that he could see me going out of my way to do the right thing........wonder how that violated the forum rules?????

I deleted their posts, because they reference other deleted parts of the conversation. I also deleted personal attacks and off topic banter. I went back through and undeleted a few. Just keep it on topic. Thanks.

[gorilla777]

Yeah, well I see you deleted Costanza, the real travesty. It's the Summer of George, you know...

[sox83cubs84]

Yeah, well I see you deleted Costanza, the real travesty. It's the Summer of George, you know...

It's OK, Ben. Costanza can return when we get closer to Festivus. Then he can use the Airing of the Grievances to discuss his deletion. :p

Dave Miedema

[panthrotc]

Here they are


That autograph is a fake. Under completed eBay search "mark mcgwire cleat" you will see a 2000 cleat that sold for 268$ in march. McGwire gu cleats from 98-01 were always signed in black sharpie. The signature in question is an extremely bad attempt at his signature.

[LarryWalkerFan]

That autograph is a fake. Under completed eBay search "mark mcgwire cleat" you will see a 2000 cleat that sold for 268$ in march. McGwire gu cleats from 98-01 were always signed in black sharpie. The signature in question is an extremely bad attempt at his signature.

The seller felt the autograph was no good. That's why he removed it.


JSA passed the signature but if it was a good one it was awful. Signed cleats sell for much much more than unsigned so if the sig was no good I believe it was just to enhance the value as opposed to creating a fully fake item. And for what they sold for u would be hard pressed to go to a shoe store and buy nice cleats! The cleats were altered when they were signed and i removed the alteration.

He didn't disclose the removal, as he felt it wasn't necessary.


...These cleats werent worn by Mcgwire with a signature on them. The signature was added either by Mcgwire or someone else. If I sell a car that had a good scratch and i buff it out or touch it up do I have to disclose that there used to be a scratch right here? No. How about if I sell a home and dont disclose that I cleaned up a stain on the carpet? Hopefully u get the idea. Bottom line is that I did the honorable thing and removed what I thought was a bad signature which resulted in me making less money. I could have sold with the signature and just stood behind the JSA letter and I guarantee I would have sold for more money. My final word is: I dont care anymore and am moving on. LOL.:)

Here's a nice legit example on Heritage:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-collectibles/others/2000-s-mark-mcgwire-game-worn-signed-st-louis-cardinals-cleats/a/7190-82607.s#

[seanbaseball]

Thanks for summarizing Larry Walker Fan. Glad u could keep the dead horse moving! LOL #getoverit

[LarryWalkerFan]

Thanks for summarizing Larry Walker Fan.

You're welcome. Glad to be of help.

[seanbaseball]

You're welcome. Glad to be of help.

I wonder if u actually collect anything or u just stalk this website and others to criticize other peoples items. Ive never seen u post a pickup. Perhaps you are too busy conducting your "research". You seem to have an opinion on a lot of items but expertise on nothing. You know nothing about me but continue to challenge me and beat a dead horse. Your not going to prove the cleats werent game worn and it must be driving u nuts! Ive gotten a lot of emails from people asking me what your problem is and why u are so concerned with my cleats. I can only explain that the world has some assholes in it and u fit the mold. Get a life!

[TheDome]

Can we just lock this thread already?

[Phil316]

:eek:

[LarryWalkerFan]

I wonder if u actually collect anything or u just stalk this website and others to criticize other peoples items. Ive never seen u post a pickup. Perhaps you are too busy conducting your "research". You seem to have an opinion on a lot of items but expertise on nothing. You know nothing about me but continue to challenge me and beat a dead horse. Your not going to prove the cleats werent game worn and it must be driving u nuts! Ive gotten a lot of emails from people asking me what your problem is and why u are so concerned with my cleats. I can only explain that the world has some assholes in it and u fit the mold. Get a life!

I collect game used hats. I also have a bunch (two dozen is a bunch for me) of game used bats, some cleats (five pairs), a couple helmets and some hockey sticks. Does the volume of acquisition work as the current standard for one's participation in a hobby? I always thought that would be more of a standard of one's participation in a business. For me, this isn't a business; it's a hobby. I buy things I enjoy, and I like to know that they're real.

I don't understand how I'm challenging you by posting your own thoughts. You did say you removed the signature from the cleats, and you did say you didn't feel that was altering them.

As for these cleats, I'm not concerned with ALL of your cleats. I'm specifically concerned with this pair of McGwire retail cleats. To begin with, I had a general concern for this model (sold by VSA), but you disclosed they're the same exact pair, so my concern evolved.

In the autograph industry, there's a general phrase that goes along the lines of "you collect your mistakes." It means that once you make a mistake in buying something, you'll never be able to get rid of it.

I harp on this item, so to speak, because it represents a larger subgroup of McGwire (and perhaps Cardinals) items: If it's verified that one pair of retail cleats was used by McGwire during his Cardinals tenure (by which time, Nike was using "promo" tags for shoes sent to McGwire), then it's possible that many retail cleats could have been game used. It actually extrapolates that any retail cleats could be potentially represented as game used.

I don't know if this is a hobby or business for you, but for me, it's a hobby. I like watching baseball, and this hobby allows me to feel a deeper connection with the history of the game.

As for posting my collection, is that required for membership on this site? If so, I wasn't informed of that.

[seanbaseball]

I have no issue with you asking about the cleats. You've done that many times ad nauseam. People have chimed in also. You dont seem to be able to let go of the issue and u definitely are making it out that i sold bad cleats. U cant prove that they are bad but yet u continue to say it. it seems that forum rules would say that u cant keep accusing me of something that is false and u cant prove. Either prove it or drop it. I really was trying to do the right thing to erase the signature EVEN THOUGH IT HAD A JSA LETTER. How many people do u know that would do that? Doing that cost me money.
I too am a collector. I bought a big collection of 400 items in January and sold many of them through ebay. I do not do this for a living nor will I ever! This hobby allows me to enjoy the game and keeps my mind occupied with something that is normally positive while I care for my ill wife waiting for a transplant. U can keep the thread alive if u wish. I am confident that no one really cares. I truly don't value your opinion nor respect the way u conduct yourself. Good riddance

[LarryWalkerFan]

Sorry. I couldn't find a clear picture for June, but I went through Getty Images for 1999, as you suggested and got these. I'm not sure if this satisfies your need for proof, but it seems clear he didn't wear retail cleats in 1999.

Apr 1999:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/st-louis-cardinal-first-baseman-mark-mcgwire-shows-his-frustration-picture-id52031616

May 1999:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/the-st-louis-cardinals-mark-mcgwire-strikes-out-in-the-fourth-inning-picture-id51607898

July 1999:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/mark-mcgwire-of-the-st-louis-cardinals-and-sammy-sosa-of-the-chicago-picture-id51615969

Aug 1999:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/mark-mcgwire-of-the-st-louis-cardinals-bats-against-the-chicago-cubs-picture-id455734058

Sept 1999:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/st-louis-cardinal-mark-mcgwire-kicks-his-foot-up-showing-his-after-a-picture-id52034494

Oct 1999:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/st-louis-cardinal-mark-mcgwire-watches-as-he-hits-his-64th-home-run-picture-id52034576

[seanbaseball]

www.mentalhealth.gov Seek help

[LarryWalkerFan]

You told me to show proof (evidence?) of why I felt retail cleats weren't used. I did that. How does that lead to your statement that I need mental help? That's actually insulting to make light of individuals who suffer from mental or physiological disorders.

[Phil316]

Guys it's done let it rest.

I think we can draw our own conclusions at this point.

I am not the forum moderator but it's done guys. If you wanna trade jabs do it through email or something please.

[seanbaseball]

You told me to show proof (evidence?) of why I felt retail cleats weren't used. I did that. How does that lead to your statement that I need mental help? That's actually insulting to make light of individuals who suffer from mental or physiological disorders.

U showed a few photos from one year lol. Remember I did not sell them as year specific.
I would never make fun of someone with a mental disorder. Ever. U assume I was kidding.....I really do believe there is something wrong with u and u might benefit from a psychological evaluation.
Well u can continue to carry this thread solo now......I gotta move on for my mental health.

[seanbaseball]

Guys it's done let it rest.

I think we can draw our own conclusions at this point.

I am not the forum moderator but it's done guys. If you wanna trade jabs do it through email or something please.

I agree and will move on like I should have done a while ago. Sorry I kept it going

[LarryWalkerFan]

U showed a few photos from one year lol.

I used the year you supplied. Here's 1998, as well, since the retail cleats were made between Nov 1997 - Jan 1998. You told me you had photos of McGwire wearing the cleats, but I couldn't find any within two years of the cleats being manufactured. I assume you'll never accept pictures as "proof" of him not wearing the cleats, so I don't know what else to give you. I tried my best to do what you demanded. Anyway, I do hope someone is able to find proof of McGwire wearing retail cleats, but I guess that won't be happening. I'm done posting in this thread, as phil316 makes a good point of there being no more that can be said or shown about the retail cleats in question. If someone posts something to establish McGwire used retail cleats, great. If not, I guess this is done.

Mar:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/mark-mcgwire-of-the-st-louis-cardinals-during-the-opening-day-game-picture-id453019185

Apr:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/apr-1998-infielder-mark-mcgwire-of-the-st-louis-cardinals-in-action-picture-id309353

May:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/may-1998-mark-mcgwire-of-the-st-louis-cardinals-in-action-during-a-picture-id377656

June:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/mark-mcgwire-of-the-st-louis-cardinals-heads-into-the-tunnel-prior-to-picture-id451042361

July:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/mark-mcgwire-of-the-st-louis-cardinals-reacts-to-just-missing-a-home-picture-id51638221

Aug:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/st-louis-cardinals-slugger-mark-mcgwire-walks-back-to-the-dugout-picture-id52026904

Sept:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/st-louis-cardinals-first-baseman-mark-mcgwire-throws-his-arm-up-in-picture-id52027375

[mbrieve]

I've learned a lot from this forum through the years--mostly do your own research and don't trust COAs or LOAs.

I personally believe that full disclosure is always the best policy. I think what Sean eventually shared on this forum would have been adequate if it had been in the original listing and probably would have avoided having this thread started. He has shifted ultimate blame to Lou Sampson and JSA--they are the "experts", so if the item is bad, blame them.

"Cleaning" and/or "altering" game used items has always been an agreed upon disclosure in this community. I personally believe removing a signature falls into this category.

Maybe a new thread could be made to discuss whether signature removal from a game used item should be disclosed.