Acceptable jersey size range in 1 season?

[kingjammy24]

as we all know, players often change jersey sizes over time. they sometimes change them within a single season. in my experience, an acceptable (ie: likely) range within a single season is +/- 1 size.
+/- 2 sizes is unlikely or unacceptable. i have a spreadsheet with over 1600 jerseys of stars, commons, callups, etc and have yet to find a single player who moved up or down 2 sizes in a single season. i believe +/- 2 sizes over two seasons is entirely plausible, but not within one.

i'd like to get other's opinions on this matter.

what do you feel is an acceptable range within a single season?

rudy.

[suave1477]

Rudy I agree with you

[bigtime59]

I own two Daniel Cabrera jerseys from the 2005 season. One is a team issued sz 50 +4" length black alternate with no use evident, and one is a sz 54 home white with significant evident use. Since I know the company that does the Orioles extra work, and recognize their stitching, I know he wore the white jersey. So, there's one two size jump for you. Of course, Daniel and the Orioles didn't know he was 6'9" until last season. Previously, they thought he was 6'7"! :rolleyes:

[R. C. Walker]

Previously I had two 1987 Carmelo Martinez Padres home jerseys. One size 42 the other 46. The lower size had tremendous use, while the 46 had less. Both were obtained from the Hartel bulk purchase.

This year I picked of two Mark Belhorn 2006 home jerseys, one size 48 the other size 52. Both examples showed decent signs of use.

So it can happen, yet I don't think very often.

[G1X]

In 1999, I traveled to the Silverdome in Detroit to make a bulk buy of over 800 Detroit Lions game-worn jerseys. While touring the locker room with the equipment staff, I was shown six Barry Sanders jerseys that were available for use in the 1997 season. The jerseys ranged from size 42 to size 46. Even more interesting was that the jerseys varied in the way they were tapered.

My firm did not purchase the Barry Sanders jerseys as the asking price was too high, but to be honest, the larger issue going through my mind was trying to explain to my customers the reason for the wide variation in the sizes and cut. I'm sure that someone would have eventually screamed "fake" - and they would have been 100% wrong!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

[otismalibu]

According to the basketball HOF, the road 86-87 Erving Sixers they had on display was a Sand-Knit size 40.

According to Lou Lampson this Doc jersey (http://webpages.charter.net/otismalibu/lampson1.jpg) from 1986-87 was a size 44. This jersey was sold my BRSZ and has some other issues as well.

GFC sold a 1986-87 Erving that was a size 42.

Every Erving gamer I've seen up for bid (that didn't raise any red flags) was a size 40. Talking Wilson jerseys, from the late 70s thru 85-86. Seeing it was a new manufacturer for that season, I could see a couple different sizes during one season, if the Wilson and Sand-Knit sizing differed. I'm not buying the size 44...literally or figuratively.

[kingjammy24]

thanks for the replies.

i think the most likely scenario of a 2 size jump would be when there's a manufacturer change as players/staff may be unsure how the new manufacturer's sizes will equate with the old ones.

i should've originally stated that what i meant was what size range was likely/appropriate for a player to actually wear on the field. (as opposed to "accidental" orders (eg: the order sheet was misread or a wrong size was made up and shipped), team-ordered promo shirts, player-ordered to sell or trade, etc). i think some jerseys are leaked out on the market that, although pro-spec in every way, weren't actually intended to be worn by that player on the field.

mark hayne, a few questions:

- do you think it's likely that in 1997, sanders either thought he might realistically use 3 different sizes/tapering styles throughout the season or was unsure about what size/tapering style he wanted?

- do you think it's possible that some of the sanders jerseys were errors and/or made up for reasons other for actual game play?

teams have jerseys made up for a multitude of purposes other than for actual game use. at a team garage sales, many teams often just round up all the jerseys and sell them all without realizing what sort of jerseys have crept into the lot. the cubs have sold retail promo jerseys as "game issued/worn" at their annual sales. the recent white sox/gallas shirts have been strange to say the least.

given than sanders was not only the star of the team but also a huge star in the league, i imagine he was involved in a number of promos. perhaps some of the smaller jerseys looked better without pads in photo shoots?
perhaps some where intended to auction off or trade with other players and as such weren't made perfectly to sanders' specs?

- do you believe all of the jerseys were made and ordered with the full intention of having sanders wear them on the field?

- if you hadn't seen the jerseys yourself, and someone came to you offering to sell YOU 6 sanders jerseys ranging from 42-46, with different tapering, what would YOU think?

rudy.

[G1X]

Rudy,

All of the Sanders jerseys were presented as game-used. One of the equipment staff even pointed out the specific games in which several of the jerseys were worn based on field stains and other characteristics. While I had absolutely no reason to doubt them as they had been very forthcoming in all of our communications and dealings, I did not feel comfortable enough to pursue the Sanders jerseys (had the price been right) as I felt that it would have been difficult to explain the variances to my customers, even with team COAs which were offered.

Regarding your questions about whether all of the jerseys were intended to be used on the field, being made for auction purposes, photo shoots, etc., etc., etc., it is important to note that the jerseys were being presented as game-used as previously mentioned. Also keep in mind that sleeve customization and similar types of alterations were usually made by the team during that era.

As for your last question, I hope that I answered it in my original post (see last phrase in the opening sentence of the closing paragraph) and my opening paragraph above. However, neither my comfort level nor anyone's theories and opinions on acceptable size variances do not make those six Barry Sanders jerseys any less real.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

[kingjammy24]

mark,

thanks for your reply. all of that said, as a collector/dealer, do you consider the sanders size-ranges to be anomalies? or have you seen many legit nfl gamers that vary +/- 2 sizes in a single season? aside from your sanders experience, what's your personal threshold on size ranges? did your sanders experience change your views on size ranges?

-------

i know we've all seen anomalies in this hobby. if michael jordan can end up wearing a store model jersey in a regular season game, then almost anything can happen. anomalies are interesting but i'm not sure how much value they have in trying to ascertain authenticity. personally, i always try to go for textbook, "perfect 10" jerseys. while i'm sure some anomalies are legit, i have no interest in wading in those waters. while i'm sure we've all seen +/- 2 sizes in 1 season, i have to think it's a rare thing. to my mind, a "rare" issue isn't an acceptable one.

thanks again for everyone's input. i look forward to hearing more.

rudy.

[G1X]

Rudy,

Yes, the Barry Sanders size variance is definitely rare and something that I personally would consider an anomaly. However, as we've seen in several posts in this thread, it happens.

The Sanders jersey didn't sway my way of thinking one way or the other as my philosophy has always been for each individual jersey to "speak for itself". Having made a few bulk buys over the years, owned thousands of football jerseys, and observed thousands more in person, I have seen enough weird things that nothing really surprises me anymore as long as it can be documented with supporting facts.

Here are a couple of examples of why size doesn't always matter. I made a bulk buy of WLAF jerseys directly from the league back in the mid-1990s that consisted of over 500 game-used jerseys from the 1991 and 1992 seasons. There were a few jerseys in the lot where the sizes varied greatly for the same player from the same season. The largest discrepancy was a New York/New Jersey Knight set of jerseys for #52-Sancho where the home black jersey was a size 52 and the road white a size 44. I had a London Monarch set of #71-Shannon where the home blue was a size 44 and the road white a size 50. There are several other examples of at least a two size discrepancy.

For a hypothetical situation involving current NFL jerseys, let's use Atlanta Falcons' Roddy White and Philadelphia Eagles Greg Lewis as examples. White and Lewis are about the same height, but White weighs approximately 20 more pounds than Lewis. White wears a size 40 for Atlanta (both 2005 and 2006) while Lewis was wearing a size 48 for Philadelphia in both 2003 and 2005. Why the difference, and why is the larger player wearing a much smaller jersey? It all has to do with the jersey style that each team chooses to wear. While both teams wear Reebok, the Falcons wear what I call the "bat winged" shoulders that arc up at an angle and are made of a spandex material while the Eagles wear the satin shoulder style where the shoulder area is separated from the body by a horizontal seam (although some of the Eagles have a bat-wing cut, but the shoulder area is still satin). In general, the Falcons are wearing small sizes with the backs and receivers wearing mostly 38s and 40s, and even some linemen and linebackers wearing 40s and 42s! The Eagles, on the other hand, rarely have anyone below a size 46 (I have a Javon Kearse in a size 44) and have linemen in sizes as large as 56!

Let's say that White is traded for Lewis in the middle of the season. Having a pretty good idea of the jersey style and sizing quirks of each team, White would most likely be wearing a size 46 or 48 as an Eagle while Lewis would be somewhere between a 38 and 42 as a Falcon. Now, to further muddle the mix, let's say that White and Lewis end up in Washington at the end of the season. Both would most likely be in a size 42 or 44 based on the 'Skins sizing scheme.

Since Roddy White is from my alma mater of UAB, I would want his Falcons, Eagles, and Washington jerseys from that season. Would I hesitate buying it for my personal collection based on the wide size varations from the same season (and would I hesitate buying Lewis' jerseys from each team with the sole purpose of selling)? Absolutely not based on the facts outlined above and, of course, assuming that the jerseys showed game use.

Getting back to the Detroit Lions Barry Sanders jerseys, if I collected Sanders jerseys and the price was right, I would not have had any problem purchasing any (or all) of those six jerseys for my personal collection. However, purchasing them for resale is a whole different story as I just would not feel comfortable trying to explain the variances as pointed out in my previous two posts. It's much easier to document and explain the White and Lewis discrepancies in my example, but much more difficult in trying to explain such a variance on a superstar's jerseys that are from the same team.

I can understand anyone being wary of a player's jerseys with a +/- 2 size variance from the same season, and I can understand collectors setting their own individual thresholds for what they are willing to accept as being believable. However, not meeting individual thresholds does not necessarily mean that something is amiss as outlined in my above two examples or in the case of the six Barry Sanders jerseys.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange