Suspect Kirk Gibson 1984 Tigers jersey

[sox83cubs84]

The shirt, in the upcoming Heritage Auctions event, has this jersey with some notable tagging red flags:

The inventory and Wilson tags are in the collar. In 1984, all tags should be in the left front outside tail (where the year/set tag is).

Also, the embroidery font on the tags is not consistent with 1984 Wilson gamers.

My copy and paste won't work...if someone can provide the photos, that would be appreciated.

Heritage was notified Friday by the man who alerted me to this...no response has been received as of Tuesday evening.

Dave Miedema

[shermdawurm]

At $1,300 with 12 days left. I agree Dave that the embroidery font on the tags do look suspect.

[sox83cubs84]

Thanks, Sherm.

Dave M.

[swainer]

I know it is hard to focus on given that he is dead sexy but here is Gibby's 84 set 1 jersey.

[sox83cubs84]

I know it is hard to focus on given that he is dead sexy but here is Gibby's 84 set 1 jersey.

That photo was submitted to Heritage by the man who alerted me to this, but the item still has not been pulled and is now being defended by them based on tagging differences in '84 Tigers gamers. The off-kilter font of the tags has not been acknowledged by them.

Dave M.

[TwinLakesPark]

I am going to throw my hat in the ring on this one, and full disclosure, I do not own this jersey, I do not know who owns it and I am not bidding on it.

I respectfully disagree with you Dave, I don't think you can call this a fake jersey. In regards to 1980's Detroit Tigers jerseys, only 3 people have handled more of them than me: Jim Schmakel, World B, and Bigs.

I categorize these jerseys 2 ways: factory jerseys and clubhouse jerseys. Factory jerseys are the ones that were ordered for the player, from the team and at the beginning of spring. These would typically be your set 1, 2 and sometimes 3 jerseys with the appropriate tagging, sizing and inventory number (and yes, I did crack the inventory number "code" of the Detroit Tigers and hope that I have time to publish a white paper on it one day). These jerseys have the factory traits that we want to see and are the jerseys that are labeled as Authentic/Real/Legit jerseys. The photo that John posted (which I can't believe your wife still allows you to keep hanging on the wall of your room John!) is a great example of Gibby's factory set 1 jersey, with the corresponding correct inventory number. These are the jerseys we all want and should command a premium for being perfect.

Now for the clubhouse jerseys, these were jerseys that were stitched in the clubhouse (or likely at a local or remote seamstress) for various reasons, especially in Lakeland during spring training. I spent days in Boone, NC digging through the hundreds (if not thousands) of jerseys that came from Jim Schmakel, and I would say that 75% of those jerseys were clubhouse jerseys that were Authentic/Real/Legit jerseys that were modified in some way. Clubhouse jerseys are real jerseys and are not fake, but they are outliers that might not have the factory traits that we want and will not sell for the premium of a factory jersey. But you know all this Dave, so I will stop spewing about jersey modifications.

So back to the jersey at hand, is this a factory 1984 jersey ordered for Gibson in the spring? The answer is No. Is this a clubhouse jersey issued to Gibby? Absolutely could be. Did someone stitch their own Gibby jersey in an attempt to commit fraud? Maybe. Since so many spring training jerseys were modified, was this a spring training issued jersey in 85, 86 or 87? Absolutely could be. Did Gibby give away so much of his equipment that the guys in the clubhouse had to pull something together right before a game so he could dress? Absolutely could have.

This jersey needs a light box and an analysis of the lettering/numbering material, which could help tell the story, but I don't think it is fair to call outliers fake, which includes this jersey. Kudos to Heritage to standing by their jersey and not being bullied, which seems to be all we talk about these days on this forum. I rarely frequent these boards anymore as it is constant negativity.

And to close, was it Howard that pointed this out to you Dave? For the love of god, would the moderators please let Howard back on this forum so we can tap into the knowledge he has? Whatever happened, happened. Give the man another chance!

-Wes

[sox83cubs84]

I am going to throw my hat in the ring on this one, and full disclosure, I do not own this jersey, I do not know who owns it and I am not bidding on it.

I respectfully disagree with you Dave, I don't think you can call this a fake jersey. In regards to 1980's Detroit Tigers jerseys, only 3 people have handled more of them than me: Jim Schmakel, World B, and Bigs.

I categorize these jerseys 2 ways: factory jerseys and clubhouse jerseys. Factory jerseys are the ones that were ordered for the player, from the team and at the beginning of spring. These would typically be your set 1, 2 and sometimes 3 jerseys with the appropriate tagging, sizing and inventory number (and yes, I did crack the inventory number "code" of the Detroit Tigers and hope that I have time to publish a white paper on it one day). These jerseys have the factory traits that we want to see and are the jerseys that are labeled as Authentic/Real/Legit jerseys. The photo that John posted (which I can't believe your wife still allows you to keep hanging on the wall of your room John!) is a great example of Gibby's factory set 1 jersey, with the corresponding correct inventory number. These are the jerseys we all want and should command a premium for being perfect.

Now for the clubhouse jerseys, these were jerseys that were stitched in the clubhouse (or likely at a local or remote seamstress) for various reasons, especially in Lakeland during spring training. I spent days in Boone, NC digging through the hundreds (if not thousands) of jerseys that came from Jim Schmakel, and I would say that 75% of those jerseys were clubhouse jerseys that were Authentic/Real/Legit jerseys that were modified in some way. Clubhouse jerseys are real jerseys and are not fake, but they are outliers that might not have the factory traits that we want and will not sell for the premium of a factory jersey. But you know all this Dave, so I will stop spewing about jersey modifications.

So back to the jersey at hand, is this a factory 1984 jersey ordered for Gibson in the spring? The answer is No. Is this a clubhouse jersey issued to Gibby? Absolutely could be. Did someone stitch their own Gibby jersey in an attempt to commit fraud? Maybe. Since so many spring training jerseys were modified, was this a spring training issued jersey in 85, 86 or 87? Absolutely could be. Did Gibby give away so much of his equipment that the guys in the clubhouse had to pull something together right before a game so he could dress? Absolutely could have.

This jersey needs a light box and an analysis of the lettering/numbering material, which could help tell the story, but I don't think it is fair to call outliers fake, which includes this jersey. Kudos to Heritage to standing by their jersey and not being bullied, which seems to be all we talk about these days on this forum. I rarely frequent these boards anymore as it is constant negativity.

And to close, was it Howard that pointed this out to you Dave? For the love of god, would the moderators please let Howard back on this forum so we can tap into the knowledge he has? Whatever happened, happened. Give the man another chance!

-Wes

Yes, it was Howard that alerted me to this. I still stand by my statement,
as the font in the tags is not consistent with anything I've seen in 1984 Tigers gamers. It appears to be hand-stitched tagging, not any sort of professional work done by the team nor at the factory. Put it this way: while I respect your right to disagree with me, if this jersey was presented to me by one of my clients, it would be designated as "Unable to Authenticate" the moment I reviewed the tagging, based on the tagging font, and irregardless of the locations of those tags.

Dave M.

[sox83cubs84]

I might also add, I doubt Gibson gives away a whole lot. Howard Wolf (of all people) shared a story on GUU years ago in which he asked Gibby to autograph a Tigers helmet for him, and Gibby went into such a tantrum/meltdown over the item being obtained legitimately that even his own teammates were shaking their heads in disbelief.

Dave M.

[TwinLakesPark]

Howard's experience with Gibson is a fantastic story and can be read here:

Howard Wolf vs Kirk Gibson (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=6300&highlight=Kirk+Gibson)

To be clear, I agree with you that the Gibson jersey is not one of the original 2 ordered at the start of the season for him. Following are photos of other 84 Detroit home jerseys from 84. Clearly you can see the trend: Wilson label in the jock, year/set tag, inventory tag under the year/set tag, and "snowball" 8.

[TwinLakesPark]

84 Monge vs 84 Gibson - So this is interesting to look at, look at the Sid Monge 84 home jersey in the last Goldin Auction (84 Monge - Goldin Auction (https://goldinauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=32394)). This one has many similarities to the Gibson jersey: (1) Wilson tag in the neck and (2) style of the "8", and (3) an incorrect inventory number. That Sid Monge jersey did NOT come from the factory as a #42 Monge jersey, and I would wager $100 that Lon Lewis could find evidence of a name/number change. But wait, the jersey came with a COA from Sid? Interesting.

The point I was trying to make in my previous posts is that outlier jerseys are not fake jerseys. Outliers exist in every clubhouse and have for decades, I am just getting sick and tired of hearing that any jersey that isn't one of the perfect ones is a fake. That is bull s@it, especially in the Detroit Tigers clubhouse who were infamous for recycling jerseys.

Maybe it is time to start recognizing "outlier" jerseys with a decreased valuation instead of just point at everything and calling it a fake. I hate to say it, but I really think there is a lot less fake game used gear that people of this site a making it out to be. I have seen people accusing sellers of fabricating $200 jerseys, are you kidding me? Really?

And to continue my maybes, if everyone on here starting posting 2 positives for each negative post, maybe this site will start to come back to life again. Think of the beer:water ratio, 2 beers for each water - 2 positive posts:1 negative post. Maybe?

[swainer]

The photo that John posted (which I can't believe your wife still allows you to keep hanging on the wall of your room John!) is a great example of Gibby's factory set 1 jersey, with the corresponding correct inventory number. These are the jerseys we all want and should command a premium for being perfect.
-Wes

HA! It's always great to hear from you Wes!!!!

[TwinLakesPark]

It appears to be hand-stitched tagging, not any sort of professional work done by the team nor at the factory. Put it this way: while I respect your right to disagree with me, if this jersey was presented to me by one of my clients, it would be designated as "Unable to Authenticate" the moment I reviewed the tagging, based on the tagging font, and irregardless of the locations of those tags.

Dave M.

So lets look at 3 examples. All 3 of these could be considered "hand-stitched". However, 2 of them have absolute provenance, unlike the 3rd (which is the jersey in discussion). One of these examples appears to have a VERY HIGH resolution that is capturing a tremendous amount of detail.

[sox83cubs84]

The font in the Gibson tags in dispute looks very little like that in the photos of the good tags that were posted (and all of which look 100% solid to me). I'm not sure WHAT the Monge was made for, but, with a inventory # of "1", I doubt I would have written an LOA on that one, either. And I KNOW I would never have written one on this Gibson.

Dave M.

[Bhawk2]

I'd like to chime in here as well. I think there is a great expectation that teams are and have always been consistent in the way they handle their jerseys, and anything with an anomaly is automatically rejected as a fake. However, particularly in the old days (like the 1970's) when teams had operating budgets a fraction of today's, they tended to cut more corners, re-using older jerseys and making clubhouse alterations and repairs. You can find plenty of group pictures of ballplayers where one has a jersey that doesn't quite match the others.

I bought 2 Oakland A's jerseys on Ebay 20 years ago, one of which was supposed to be Dick Allen's and the other Dock Ellis. They both looked like solid 1977 McAuliffe jerseys, but the NOB and number on the Allen jersey looked wrong and the Ellis NOB was clearly wrong. Neither jersey cleared $200, so I don't think anyone believed either jersey was right. I eventually shipped them to Lon Lewis, and he said the "Dick Allen" had actually been worn by Rich McKinney, but the Ellis jersey was original, with the bad NOB applied either locally or more likely on the road.

So, I would say that most jerseys with anomalies are probably not GW jerseys, but a few of them are the real thing.

[TwinLakesPark]

The font in the Gibson tags in dispute looks very little like that in the photos of the good tags that were posted (and all of which look 100% solid to me). I'm not sure WHAT the Monge was made for, but, with a inventory # of "1", I doubt I would have written an LOA on that one, either. And I KNOW I would never have written one on this Gibson.

Dave M.

There are 2 font differences and 1 material difference, but the stitching is the same. The peak of the 4 and the tail of the 2 are different, and the grain of the strip is diagonal vs up/down. However the stitching is the same. It is also important to note that the inventory tag in the neck of the Gibson in question has the same grain pattern as the tail strip. Regarding the inventory tag in the neck, I have seen many authentic/real/legit Tigers jerseys from the late 70's with a handwritten inventory number in the neck and from 85/86 with inventory numbers like this one in the neck.

The best course of action for this jersey would be to get it in the hands of Lon Lewis. I am willing to put this one to bed with agreeing to disagree. You not choosing to authenticate it is fine by mine, I can authenticate my own jerseys.

Now the Monge jersey is another story but I am going to choose to not pick that fight...

Up next, maybe some constructive educational additions to Rudy's Wilson tagging primer but with the focus on the Wilson tagging and strip tagging. Like the elusive question that has bothered my for years, why are some Wilson tags in the neck and some in the tail?

[sox83cubs84]

There are 2 font differences and 1 material difference, but the stitching is the same. The peak of the 4 and the tail of the 2 are different, and the grain of the strip is diagonal vs up/down. However the stitching is the same. It is also important to note that the inventory tag in the neck of the Gibson in question has the same grain pattern as the tail strip. Regarding the inventory tag in the neck, I have seen many authentic/real/legit Tigers jerseys from the late 70's with a handwritten inventory number in the neck and from 85/86 with inventory numbers like this one in the neck.

The best course of action for this jersey would be to get it in the hands of Lon Lewis. I am willing to put this one to bed with agreeing to disagree. You not choosing to authenticate it is fine by mine, I can authenticate my own jerseys.

Now the Monge jersey is another story but I am going to choose to not pick that fight...

Up next, maybe some constructive educational additions to Rudy's Wilson tagging primer but with the focus on the Wilson tagging and strip tagging. Like the elusive question that has bothered my for years, why are some Wilson tags in the neck and some in the tail?

I guess then that "agree to disagree" is where I'll let this go, as well.

Dave M.