San Francisco Giants logos

[TNTtoys]

Hi guys,

I am a little confused by different variations on the SF Giants logos, 1977-1982.

Please refer to 3 photos below. The Mitchell and Ness and Majestic jerseys show 1 version of the Giants logo, whereas the game used jersey show a different one, which is (to best of my descripting ability, more "slanty"). I have a 1979 gamer which looks like the gamer below.

Were both logos ever used? Or is the Mitchell and Ness / Majestic wrong?

Thanks,
Nick

[hblakewolf]

Nick-
In a nutshell, both the Majestic and M & N versions of the original 1979 jersey are wrong. I've seen the M & N versions of the various Phillies jerseys, and it's hard to believe they are so "off" from the originals. I could understand this if M & N was trying to replicate an extremely early jersey that they had to rely on photos for, however, do you really think it's that tough to perfectly copy a Giants or Phillies knit from 1979?

I hear folks ranting and raving about how great M & N jerseys are, but I simply can't agree. I've always had the feeling that they make a nice replica, but it's not exact. For $250., one would think they could provide a better product.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[TNTtoys]

Nick-
In a nutshell, both the Majestic and M & N versions of the original 1979 jersey are wrong. I've seen the M & N versions of the various Phillies jerseys, and it's hard to believe they are so "off" from the originals. I could understand this if M & N was trying to replicate an extremely early jersey that they had to rely on photos for, however, do you really think it's that tough to perfectly copy a Giants or Phillies knit from 1979?


This is really surprising for M&N... I kind of expected the Majestics to be off -- they are supposed to, as they are not licensed by MLB to produce an exact replica... but Mitchell and Ness are!! It's almost as if they copied off of the Majestic knock-off and not the original. I have seen examples of where M&N would get a jersey wrong -- possibly leave out some small detail, get a color slightly off, get a year/date wrong, etc... but to botch up an entire team logo? I have not seen such a large error before. The Jack Clark 1982 black alternate is "on sale" at the M&N website for over $300. Shocking. Might as well buy the Majestic for $79...

[suave1477]

I have to play devils advocate here!!!

Has anyone seen in person the actual Mitchell and Ness Giants Jersey?

Because from what it seems your all judging by a Generic photo, which I do understand is supposed to show the actual product but it is still a generic photo.
I have purchased a Jersey from Mitchell and Ness and in the photo it seemed a little off but when I actually got it, it was correct.

Here is a picture of a Vintage inspired 2006 warm up Jacket they made see how it has the correct "Giants Logo" slanted

http://www.mitchellandness.com/images/BJGI06J_W.jpg

[lon lewis]

I couldn't resist putting my opinion of the mitchell & ness giants jerseys on this thread. they are not even close to the actual jerseys. Howard is right on in his post on this subject.If anyone thinks that they do a good job on the Giants jerseys then you deserve to get sucked into paying $250-$300 for this "junk".

[suave1477]

LonLewis you said Mitchell & Ness is not even close, that there stuff is Junk. How do you feel it is not even close? What was it on a Jersey that made you feel that way?

[TNTtoys]

On the logo disparity -- I have seen the 1977-1982 Giants jerseys before, and they are the same as the generic photo on the M&N website, not like the game used jersey I posted the photo of. This logo seriously is not close to the real thing -- and why I thought from a very early stage that there 2 distinct logos used in this time period.

I wouldn't buy this particular jersey from M&N, but I have bought quite a few others (ironically, I am wearing one right now). I do agree with the previous statement that they are hit or miss. Thankfully for me, they are more "hit".

Particularly, I LOVE the 1985 Mets St. Patrick's Day jersey (Strawberry/18). This is a GREAT jersey. I also speak very highly about the 1977 blue Twins Rod Carew jersey. This one too is outstanding. There are quite a few others in my collection that I will rave on about.

I cannot however say the same about my 1980 Nolan Ryan Astros Rainbow home -- it's made from a material so hard and stiff, it's like wearing a sheet of cardboard. Needless to say, it's hung in my closet ever since it arrived. I am also not particularly pleased with a couple of 80s Mets jerseys -- the 1988 BP is flimsier than my Rawlings retail authentic of the same style (despite being double the price) -- the 1983 blue alternate is disappointing too -- the colors are wrong (M&N used the batting practice color scheme of orange/white/orange and not the alternate color scheme of orange/blue/orange) and the sleeve openings are big enough to fit about 3 arms a piece...hardly what the originals looked like.

Others, I am indifferent about -- such as my 1983 style blue Strawberry BP jersey (mislabeled as 1984, when the style no longer existed). Some mistakes are fairly easily overlooked... but going back to the original point of this discussion -- to make a team logo of completely different script lettering on what is being sold as an "authentic/true to every detail" jersey is just poor.

[lon lewis]

TNT
I didn't address your question regarding the Giants logos (sorry) actually none of the photos posted are correct. the M&N, Majestic and the Alpha (the one on the hanger) are not correct representations of the Wilson mfr logos. on the wilson jerseys of 1977 and some of the '78's the logo is slightly thinner and more spread out compared to the '79's and later. for 77-78 the numbers on front and back are wilson full block and measure approx (the black portion) 3 1/2" tall for the front and 6 7/8" tall on the back number. the 77's had plain block letters on a plate for the nob that were similar to the 73-76 jerseys.the 77 roads were orange and carried the letters san francisco on the front in a "fancy block" or "tiffany" style.the nob and numbers were the same as the home versions. in 78 the front logo switched to a slightly thicker version of the script giants and was slightly more condensed. the nob changed to a vertical arc style. the numbers front and back remained the same. also they dropped the san francisco on the front of the orange jerseys and went with the same giants script on the front and added a black jersey as another alternate. in 1979 the numbers changed in size to aprox 3 3/4" for the front and 7 3/4" for the back (black portion measurement) this type of script, numbering and lettering remained unchanged thru 1982 the last year of use of this particular style jersey. during 1980-81 the giants used on a limited basis a black mesh jersey mfr by alpha for road b.p. and a few road games they featured a similar to wilson giants script and numbers. the nob was lettered with 3" plain block letters that were either sewn directly to the jersey or was on a plate of matching mesh material.

[TNTtoys]

I have to play devils advocate here!!!

Here is a picture of a Vintage inspired 2006 warm up Jacket they made see how it has the correct "Giants Logo" slanted

http://www.mitchellandness.com/images/BJGI06J_W.jpg

Hey devil's advocate... this may be slanted better, but it's still wrong. The lettering is not accurate when compared to the Frank Robinson BP below. Check out the "t" -- I think it's the most different to the original out of any of the letters in the logo.

[suave1477]

Tnt ok well as far as the actual letters that I didn't look for. I was just regarding the Slant since thats what was pointed out. But I do see what you mean.

[TNTtoys]

TNT
I didn't address your question regarding the Giants logos (sorry) actually none of the photos posted are correct....

...during 1980-81 the giants used on a limited basis a black mesh jersey mfr by alpha for road b.p. and a few road games they featured a similar to wilson giants script and numbers. the nob was lettered with 3" plain block letters that were either sewn directly to the jersey or was on a plate of matching mesh material.

Lon,

Thanks for this information. I didn't realize that the mesh Frank Robinson jersey was made from a different manufacturer (I guess this is a little like the Capitol Ace/Rawlings mesh & solid poly jerseys for the White Sox from that era as well).
I did however think that the logo itself was accurate for that period, and sort of compared it to my 1979 Wilson. Am I right or should I have taken a closer look?



...on the wilson jerseys of 1977 and some of the '78's the logo is slightly thinner and more spread out compared to the '79's and later...


Lon - Do you have a sample photo of the 1977? I would like to compare it to my 1979 to see what you mean by the logo being thinner and more spread out. I wonder if M&N was trying to mimic this style with their Jack Clark jersey, as those letters are clearly thinner. Course it doesn't explain why they have affixed a "1982" tag to it...

[kingjammy24]

m&n made 2 "1987" blue jays road throwbacks. one for cecil fielder, the other for george bell. the fielder has a NOB, the bell doesn't. it's almost as if they weren't sure what the right answer was so they made one of each.
anyway, the correct answer is that 1987 jays road jerseys should not have a nob. the fielder is wrong. the odd part isn't so much that they got it wrong, but that they made 2 '87 road throwbacks differently.

i think m&n jerseys can possibly help point you in the right direction but i'd hardly use them as any sort of solid reference.

rudy.

[TNTtoys]

m&n made 2 "1987" blue jays road throwbacks. one for cecil fielder, the other for george bell. the fielder has a NOB, the bell doesn't. it's almost as if they weren't sure what the right answer was so they made one of each.

They did the same thing for the 1985 Mets St. Patrick's Day jerseys. They made 2 of those as well: one for Dwight Gooden (number 16 on back, no name) and one for Darryl Strawberry (full name and number 18 on back).

[lon lewis]

TNT

the "alpha" jerseys were made as a short term fix and tryout for the 80-81 seasons for a road b.p and limited use product.Alpha was a mfr located in S.F. ironically across the street from the site of the old Seals Stadium where the Giants 1st played. Anyhow, their Giants logos were of a close aproximation to the Wilson jerseys not exact, but close. The other features of the Alpha jerseys are not the same as the Wilson jerseys as far as #'s letters material,ect. I wish I had the capability to scan and send you the various logos from the different years but I don't. As far as the '82 Clark M&N is concerned nothing is correct on that jersey the logo, the numbers, the NOB or even the patch for that matter. the reason they tagged it as '82 is the patch. (the Giants 25th season in S.F) If you have access to some topps cards you could check 1978 McCovey #34 vs 1981 Montefusco #438 to get an idea of what I'm talking about regarding the logos I guess what sets me off on M&N is that here's a big time Co. with all kinds of resources to do this job and they screw it up. I mean how hard can it be to look at an actual jersey and copy it? Since I do this kind of stuff (restoration) all the time I know it's not difficult to replicate the styles of logos, numbers and NOB'S. If for some reason they can't do that M&N as a MLB licensee can always get Liebe to furnish what they need.

[Marichal27]

Here are a couple of real gamers, from 1982.

[kingjammy24]

the other day i ran into a M&N "1993 joe carter" jersey ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230236348824 )and it was one of the worst M&N renditions i've ever seen. literally, every aspect of it was way off. the nob, the front team script, the team logo, the numbers, the WS patch; all of it grossly incorrect. even with the MLB licensing, they still couldn't even get the team logo right. sloppy, sloppy stuff. below is an image comparing the two. M&N on the left, real jays gamers on the right:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4277/sillyys6.jpg

rudy.

[TNTtoys]

the other day i ran into a M&N "1993 joe carter" jersey ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230236348824 )and it was one of the worst M&N renditions i've ever seen. literally, every aspect of it was way off. the nob, the front team script, the team logo, the numbers, the WS patch; all of it grossly incorrect. even with the MLB licensing, they still couldn't even get the team logo right. sloppy, sloppy stuff. below is an image comparing the two. M&N on the left, real jays gamers on the right:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4277/sillyys6.jpg

rudy.

Rudy,

Not for the sole intent to play devil's advocate with you... how are you certain that the Mitchell and Ness jersey advertised on ebay is legitimate? M&N knock-offs are probably more evident on the market than their real counterparts. There are only a small number of M&N retailers on ebay, and they usually deal with overstock or wholesale irregulars, not the more popular sizes. The ebay listing you have provided is at a price that is far below wholesale (not sure what seller would want to pay over $100 to M&N and then take the risk of losing money and fees on it over ebay),
does not show any of the tagging (another red flag), and may have another tagging inconsistency to current style M&N jerseys (position of manufacturer tags). I've been to the M&N website to verify whether or not the Carter is real, but to my surprise found that they don't sell a Carter (they may have before, but it would be sort of surprising to see they started the line only in the last couple of years only to discontinue it as quickly). My 2 cents here.

Nick

[TNTtoys]

Rudy,

I found a photo of a REAL 1993 Joe Carter M&N jersey on Distant Replays (they are one of few trusted resellers of M&Ns). The photos of this jersey show VAST differences than the one you pointed to on ebay.

The font on back letters is wrong

The font on front letters is wrong

The sizes/thickness of the numbers are wrong

The white between the back numbers is wrong

The font on front is arched incorrectly

The color of the Blue Jay head is gray, not aqua

The color of the letters is wrong

The tagging is in the wrong place

And I would suppose there are probably even more problems with the ebay jersey... Rest assured, this is not an issue of M&N completely bombing this jersey (as per the 80s Giants ones at the start of the thread); this is the difference between the real one and the knock-off.

Nick

[kingjammy24]

hey nick

yeah at one point i thought that the ebay carter was so horrendous that there's a good likelihood that it wasn't a real M&N. i'm not an expert by any means on M&N jerseys so i didn't really know.

if it's any reassurance, the nob on the M&N carter you found is still way off ;)

as usual, all is revealed in the "A".

rudy.

[otismalibu]

I've got a number of M&N jerseys and none of them are exact. And some are much closer than others. Wrong cut, wrong lettering, wrong numbers...
Authenticators aren't the only ones who refuse to take the time to crack a few books, play some video or glance at Getty.

[TNTtoys]

Regarding previous posts I have made regarding M&N Mets jerseys, I am happy to say that they put two of the bad ones back into production and corrected them --

The 1985 St. Patrick's Day Gooden that had no name on back now has a name on back correctly.

The 1983 Blue Road Alternate now has correct colors on the neckline and sleeves (orange and gray). It formerly contained the neckline and sleeves from the home batting practice jersey instead (orange and white).

Glad to see that they are continuing to improve their products.

Now, if we can get a corrected GIANTS logo, we're in business ... lol