Opnions on how to handle a fake jersey sold to me

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

OK this is going to be a long story but let me start from the top.
In 2004 I was new to the hobby of collecting game used jerseys.
I was trying to educate myself the best way I knew how between forums and asking experts when possible. I had found a "game worn" hockey jersey on ebay. The discription seemed perfect and every question I asked was answered as they should have been. So no reason to have a red flag thrown up on the auction.
After the 5 days I won the auction. Paid the seller within 3 days. Recieved my jersey and to my surprise the jersey was not a game worn jersey and misrepresented the size was incorrect from what was stated to me. The jersey had none of the wear the seller described. As soon as I got the jersey I contacted the seller. He said the auction stated that he thought it was a game worn jersey and had questions about it.
Though the auction did not say anything of the sort. He refused to refund my money of over 300 dollars. I have asked very calmly many times on other forums for this seller to refund my money. And also emailed him with no response. I fell as there have been many questions raised in this hobby over the last year or two as to the validity of some jerseys. And would hate to see anyone get ripped off by this same seller. He knows exactly who he is. I am asking one more time on this forum seeing I found him hiding out here for him to come forward and refund me my money.
And also to alert other members of his tactics. If you have no knowledge of the hobby you should not call yourself a dealer. Thank you for everyones time.

[allstarsplus]

He refused to refund my money of over 300 dollars.

He knows exactly who he is. I am asking one more time on this forum seeing I found him hiding out here for him to come forward and refund me my money.
It's a shame you are having issues and sometimes buyers and sellers will disagree after the fact on authenticity. It sounds like there may have been some misrepresentations. Why don't you post some pictures and the original description and let's see if you get some impartial opinions from other members.

Some sellers would give you the benefit of the doubt and give you some type of credit or refund and those are the type of sellers that even after a problem such as this you would buy from again.

The only decent news may be that it was $300 and not $3,000. Remember, there probably is some value to the jersey even though it may not be a real game used. You may be able to resell it at some value based on what you think the jersey really is--a game issued or authentic or whatever. You would still lose money but minimize your loss from the $300.

Just some thoughts for you to think over as some other options.

Good luck. Andrew

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

Thanks I will take some pictures when I dig it out of the closet. This jersey is not worth 25 bucks to be honest. I know it does not seem like a ton of money but over 300 dollars to me is. And I have to be honest I asked tons of questions and was actually lied to the whole time. It is a matter of principal. Hopefully the seller will come forward and admit their wrong doing.

[pujols916]

hi this guy has had many chances to come straight with you and hasent , i would tell his info that isnt right if 300 isnt alot to him then neather is his info , please i dont want to deal with him its not your problem he is a bad man ,,,, :D ,,,,, hope you make the correct deal in the future

[Nathan]

Would this happen be to a #27 jersey of Alexei Kovalev?

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

Nathan you are correct.

[Nathan]

Nathan you are correct.

I thought so. I'm not getting into this specific issue, but I will strongly dissuade you from trolling after this person as has happened elsewhere. Stating your side of the story is one thing, but don't turn this into another buffalomafia.net.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

I have no idea what you mean by a Buffalomafia.net , And to say I am trolling. Without you knowing or asking for more details is moronic. You really think I came here for trouble? No I came here because I found out the seller no hides here. So I am wrong for trying to warn other collectors of his antics?
I did not come here with bad intentions. Have I on another forum tried calling him out? Yes I have. What did I get from him after he ignores emails and attempts to contact him on a jersey he sold that was fake? Nothing. If you wish to go along not caring for other members and their hard earned money that is fine. But do not add to a thread if you are just here to "warn" me about something. I have a heart and actualy care about other people. Thanks.

[Nathan]

I have no idea what you mean by a Buffalomafia.net , And to say I am trolling. Without you knowing or asking for more details is moronic. You really think I came here for trouble? No I came here because I found out the seller no hides here. So I am wrong for trying to warn other collectors of his antics?
I did not come here with bad intentions. Have I on another forum tried calling him out? Yes I have. What did I get from him after he ignores emails and attempts to contact him on a jersey he sold that was fake? Nothing. If you wish to go along not caring for other members and their hard earned money that is fine. But do not add to a thread if you are just here to "warn" me about something. I have a heart and actualy care about other people. Thanks.

BuffaloMafia.net = gameworn.net

I'm quite familiar with the details, because every time the seller you refer to would post anything on any thread, there was a certain someone throwing "a certain Kovalev jersey" out there. This is the definition of trolling. Like I said, if you want to bring up an issue with another dealer or collector, I have no issue. But I and others certainly do have issues with seeing a thread devoted to, say, legitimate research quickly degenerating into a flamefest because of trolling. There's an enormous difference between calling out and trolling. Call out? Fine. Troll? Not fine.

In the interest of full disclosure, I've never done any deals with said dealer and I don't believe I've ever talked to him/her at any point.

I added my initial statement because I saw firsthand what happened on the other site, and I have no intention of standing by idly and watching the same crap happen on here.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

You do not have to sit back a watch anything. If you were truly interested in the situation you would have asked questions. If you are so fimilar with the details you condone actions of selling a fake jersey knowingly. If that is true it is sad. What happened at the other site from anything I did? Nothing. I have done many deals never a bad one so why would I come out of the blue with this? There must be some validity to it. :D

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

BTW Nathan this is about a seller who also is on here preaching honest practice by dealers. And questioning Lampson and others.

[both-teams-played-hard]

I am the seller of the Kovalev. The jersey was sold on eBay in late 2003 or early 2004. I included a question mark in the auction title. The tagging matched tags of Rangers jerseys on dropthepucks.com. It was purchased from a source who has sold me numerous hockey jerseys (70s North Stars, 60s Cleveland Barons, etc.). The buyer left positive feedback. I never heard any complaints until more than a year later when I was attacked on gameworn.net. I do not offer third party authentication or a lifetime guarantee. My disclaimer was the question mark in the auction title. I believe the buyer was trying to get a good deal for resale purposes. I am not an expert or authenticator. I have NEVER claimed to be either. I have NEVER offered an LOA. I responded to one of hockeyphoto's e-mail about 2 years ago. The reply was the same as it is today: ALL SALES ARE FINAL. I use the same screen name for this forum, the hockey forum and eBay. I am not hiding from anyone. The jersey was not altered to show wear or to be something it isn't. I think this is a case of "buyer's remorse", more than 3 years after the fact.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

You are not telling the truth. You stated the size incorrect and NEVER answered an email. weather I was reselling a jersey or not does not take away from the fact it was not what you stated it to be. This is untrue why would you not take back a jersey if it is deemed to be not a true game worn jersey. The only remorse I have is that you lied about the size, wear, and you also said that it was "looked at by someone else" to make sure it was exactly what you are selling.
How about you be a honest dealer and take the jersey. As I stated I only attacked you because you decided to not answer emails. Show me any other times I attacked anyone on the site. I am surprised you actually came forward but maybe you are turning over a new leaf. I have not met any dealer that sells game worn jerseys that does not offer a refund if the jersey has PROVEN to be a fake.
Every dealer has a jersey or 2 that come to them that get resold and are found out to be fake. Any dealer has no problem taking them back. Why do you have this problem? Do you not care what people think? Or do you really not care about people,just the dollar bills they give you?
Maybe you will see it someone elses way one time. You sit there and bash other peoples items for sale. But it is ok for you to sell fake jerseys. Talk about a 1 way street. For once be a stand up guy.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

BTW there was no question mark in the auction title either. Nice try.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

As a matter of fact you never put a question mark on any of your auctions. Was this the only one because you had a question about it? Ironic.

[bat_master]

I normally don't get involved in these disputes, but seriously...how about some photos of the jersey or some other concrete proof of your claims?

So far you've come on here and made claims but have produced no evidence of anything and have only made accusations.

If you are looking for an impartial 3rd party view of the situation then put all the cards on the table to be judged.

Let's see photos of the jersey in question or a copy of the ebay listing.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

Gonna be kinda hard for the listing it was from 2004 and no longer resides in Ebays database. But I will put photos on my webshots as I do not know how to add photos to a post here.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

Here is my webshots link to the Kovalev.
A couple side notes I was told when I asked about the fight strap there was salting in the fight strap and you can tell there is none.

Also the size was incorrect it was stated as a size I believe 54 this is a 44

also repaired hole on the shoulder there is no repair just a spot that looks as if someone tried to make some wear.

http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/558000291AKIjAi

[Nathan]

Here's the primary problem: the auction listing has ceased to exist.

From a personal standpoint, I save the auction listings for EVERYTHING I buy on my hard drive until a deal is completed in a satisfactory manner. If it's something I intend to hold onto, I delete the listing. If it's something where there's even a possibility of resale, it stays. I have auction listings as far back as 2001 saved on my hard drive.

The problem is that without this important piece of evidence, this is nothing more than a he-said-he-said in the public eye. There's nothing that can be demonstrated as evidence here, just a revival of a pissing match that's obviously been brewing for a long time.

If the jersey isn't a gamer, that's fine. If the seller intentionally misrepresented an item, then obviously it falls to the seller to make it right somehow. But if a jersey was not represented as a gamer, and the fact that it isn't is the issue, then there's really not much that can be done.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

Yes I believe saving this information to a hard drive is a good insurance policy. I have also started doing this.

I am really not trying to start a pissing match. Just bringing out the facts. And trying to save someone else from making the same mistake with the same seller. But I think I have a pretty legitimate post. Who in their right mind would spend over 300 dollars on a non game worn jersey? And second I went through all of this sellers auctions listings that were available and not 1 is ever marked with a question mark. Am I to believe he has practiced doing this 1 time? I highly doubt that.I just wanted to make people aware of the seller and his games. If he is a stand up person he will take back the jersey as would any real dealer in the US.

[Nathan]

Yes I believe saving this information to a hard drive is a good insurance policy. I have also started doing this.

I am really not trying to start a pissing match. Just bringing out the facts. And trying to save someone else from making the same mistake with the same seller. But I think I have a pretty legitimate post. Who in their right mind would spend over 300 dollars on a non game worn jersey? And second I went through all of this sellers auctions listings that were available and not 1 is ever marked with a question mark. Am I to believe he has practiced doing this 1 time? I highly doubt that.I just wanted to make people aware of the seller and his games. If he is a stand up person he will take back the jersey as would any real dealer in the US.

The Oilers jersey that ol' #11 wore for Mark Messier Retirement Night sold for five figures. Apparently there's quite a few people who will spend money on non-game jerseys. The one Gary Cooper wore in "Pride of the Yankees" sold for five or six figures as well.

It's entirely possible for someone to have a unique item listing for one thing. I see sellers regularly who have a number of jerseys and then have something like a guitar or automotive components. But as far as the listing titles go, just because something is not regularly part of a title doesn't mean that it wasn't used one time.

I'll give you an example. I have a bunch of football game jerseys and maybe 5 or 6 hockey ones. I have no baseball and no basketball. If I come across a baseball jersey that has faded tags and various light wear to it, would I list it with a (?) in the title? Sure would. Would it be out of character from what I normally do? Absolutely.

Like I said before, I've had no dealings with this person. I have no personal relationship or allegiance of any kind. I have seen this person post questions here and elsewhere asking for help identifying jerseys. I don't remember seeing anyone else here or elsewhere saying "Hey, this guy's passing off bad gear" with the exception of you. I'm not saying that you're somehow a bad guy, but I have to wonder why this is the case if this person has sold plenty of other jerseys to other people. Surely someone else out there would have acquired a bogus item if he's a crook, as you have stated elsewhere.

Let's say that this jersey you possess is in fact an oddball that was used in a game for some reason (as has happened numerous times). The HHOF has a Wayne Gretzky jersey with the nameplate reading "GRETKZY". I mean, there's a street sign near my house that misspells the name of the road it's supposed to identify. If this is an oddball that was in fact used, what have you accomplished here besides labeling someone as a crook and a cheat?

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

I know you say you are not taking sides but boy by reading your post it sure does not feel as if you are not. But anyway you are coming up with all these what if's. What if what if. But as I said in an earlier post what if it was a bad jersey? Do I still not have the right to say something if I am ignored? That is where you are wrong. I have every right. Hey like I said every dealer will get a bad jersey or 2 but always fix the situation.
Ok because you would list something with a question mark means he did? No he did not list it with a question mark. And he HAS sold hockey jerseys before it is not like the guy has only sold 1 jersey. He is a "dealer". And to anyones credibility I have never had a bad deal does this mean I am a stand up person? You have no idea. But I have posted all the facts and the seller admits I did contact him,yet does not mention he ignored my emails. He makes an excuse that I was trying to resell the jersey like that has any bearing on weather it is ok to sell someone a fake jersey or not. Then says it is buyers remorse. How many excuses are there. I have posted the facts and proved this jersey is not as was stated. I have never hide from him. I have asked him several times to take the jersey back and he ignores it. Where is the line drawn that maybe I am in the right in your eyes? Or would you like me to jump through some more hoops.
And as I said I have called him out on other forums when ignored. I have not lied nor hide anything about what I have done to get a hold of him nor have I denied I have called him a name or two. And BTW buying a Messier jersey from that night is far different from buying a non game worn jersey from the early 90's and you know that. And as far as wearing it for a game or 2 it would actually have to fit him. Not be the incorrect size as he stated to me. So as I said I have jumped through your hoops and you have not even satyed impartial whatsoever but thats is OK I will sleep well tonight knowing I do not think it is OK to have a dealer take advantage of any situation. Thanks.

[Nathan]

No, seriously, I'm not taking sides. Look at it this way. If you were to take this case into court, would you be able to win based on the evidence provided?

This isn't an issue of "he said it had great wear and I'd say it's only moderate or light wear". By making these accusations and calling these names, you are specifically accusing another person of intentionally misrepresenting an item for their own personal gain. If there is evidence to conclusively prove fraud to have been committed, then post your findings and let the people decide.

If you don't have the evidence to show that fraud (again, willfully misrepresenting an item for financial gain) actually occurred, then there's nothing that can be done. I'm staying on this point not to take sides, but to let you know what the repercussions can be. You personally open yourself up to civil and legal action by claiming that something intentionally happened.

A few months ago, there was a case on here of someone accusing Scott Kent of CollegeJersey.com of fraud because of the semantics of an item description. I basically told them the same thing, and the only difference between that case and this case is that I have had numerous dealings with Scott.

Why am I throwing "what if" out there? This needs to be treated like it's a court case. And if these "what ifs" are plausible or may have occurred, then there is no case. This specifically includes an item listing that does not currently exist in any form (unless you can find someone who saved it). Obviously, this is the crucial piece of evidence.

Read through the auction listings section of this forum and see what you find. There are plenty of times where someone in the know will make mention of either an eBay item or an auction house item and provide specific evidence of why something is either an anachronism or is simply bogus. This can be box scores to show that someone never played in a game or a season, photographic evidence, video evidence, or simply digging up old orders and shipping records.

You'll also find me lambasting someone a couple weeks ago for providing a link to an eBay auction and proclaiming an item to be "clearly a fake" when there was no good cause for it. Stuff like this is seriously damaging to a person's reputation, and the general rule is NOT to make accusations against a person unless it's on the basis of something that would stand up in court.

If you're fully confident that, on the basis of what you have presented, you would win in a court case.....make all the accusations you want. But if it wouldn't stand up, then you need to be aware of what the repercussions are and can be for making what amount to (in the eyes of the legal system) baseless accusations.

*For extended reading, keep a close on eye on what transpires between the Juteau brothers of Classic Auctions and accusations of fraud against them -- here's a hint. It involves use of terms like "would never allow this to be worn in a game" on something that's apparently been photomatched

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

I see some of your points. And to be honest I guess I was to secure that there would be no problem in getting this jersey taken back by the time the seller responded it was far too late to even file a claim with ebay. And the reason for not starting a court case is first it is only 300 and change is it worth my time to start a case where the chances of the seller showing up 1500 miles away from his house over 300 and change are not good. So the court may rule a judgment in my favor am I ever going to see the money? No. In small claims I would have to prove more likely than not. I think I can do this. I was just hoping the seller could be a stand up person and take care of something he should have a long time ago.

I did accuse him of knowingly misrepresenting the item because he did.
I am not trying to leave myself open to anything. I am just trying to do what is right. And trying to maybe regain some of the things that have been lost in this hobby like honor between individuals. I have never had a bad deal and if I did I would do everything in my power to make it right. I just treat people like I want to be treated. How would you feel if this happened to you.

[allstarsplus]

I saw the pictures you posted, and I am still not enough of an expert to even know from the fighting straps and tagging you showed if this is a replica, authentic jersey, game issued, or game used.

I will say that the ending values some times is indicative of what others think of the item which may be why you were able to get it at $300.

If you go to MEIGRAY, their cheapest Kovalev is $895 and go up to $2,395.
http://www.meigray.com/edealinv/servlet/ExecMacro?dummy1=1&sipagename=sisearch&keys=-101&psz=25&rurl=control%2FSearchStoreItemsShow.vm&orig_sessionid=f0_4Em2mJQSbsCeHog&searchText=kovalev&orderby=si_title&eurl=control%2FSearchStoreItemsShow.vm&tru_ssl_pg=N&ei_pgparamname=nurl&sidx=0&SUBCAMPAIGN_ID=-1&searchType=0&nurl=control%2FSearchStoreItemsShow.vm&ctl_nbr=2381

I am not taking sides here just giving you an idea of what legitimate Kovalev jerseys sell for on MEIGRAY.

Hopefully you and BTPH can calmly talk it through and resolve this.

Andrew

[flaco1801]

enuff of this garbage. both teams played hard is a good guy. if he says there was a question mark....... guess what there WAS. I NEVER MET HIM BUT HE HAS ALWAYS ANSWERED ANY QUESTIONS i posed and even had helped many forum members with his knowledge. i have purchased items from him for years and never had ANY problems. i wish more people in this hobby modeled themselves after him. BOTH TEAMS can play on my team anytime.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

As I stated seeing you want to chime in and give your one sided opnion. Every dealer has gotten a questionable if not fake jersey in their inventory. It happens but when the jersey is found to be fake the jersey is taken back and all is done. This case has nothing to do with that. And I NEVER said he has not helped people. So do not go putting words in my mouth. If you want to call what I am sayign garbagge fine. I do not really care what you think. But remember you decided to add to what you consider garbagge. Ironic huh?

For you to say what there was and what there was not is a true ruler of how you think. You have no idea. I asked a question asked for peoples opnions not to be bashed by a one sided snap judgement person like yourself. Allsatrs plus I do understand what they go for on MEIGRAY trust me Barry is the only TRUE NHL game worn hockey dealer. His has an unmatched system that has made this hobby great. On the other hand I know if you loose a Meigray LOA you are out of luck. This jersey was sold with no LOA that brings down the value of the jersey by vast amounts. Even more when MEIGRAY tagging is not present in them. Thats is why the questions I asked were all things that would say this is a game worn jersey or not.


My only hope is for myself and BTPH can calmly resolve this matter. But he would have to answer an email. BTW flacoBarry and MEI GRAY can play for my team anyday. They actually have their stuff together. Unmatched customer service and NEVER an issue like this.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Every dealer has gotten a questionable if not fake jersey in their inventory.

You should not use the term "fake" lightly. Bogus, crap, worthless, mis-represented are fine. "Fake" implies intentionally altering an item to deceive. I don't do that. Your quote above is a full-on blanket statement. How can you prove this statement?
Can you post a close-up of the tagging on your Kovalev? I could not see the size tag on your webshots. When I sold it to you, there was a "46" satin half inch flag tag attatched to the Cosby tag. I never said anything about the size. I only included a detailed photo of the size tag in the listing.

[soxbats]

Hockey, don't know anyone involved here but thought it might be helpful to have some of the facts. When did you purchase the jersey? Do you have copies of the emails sent to the seller complaining about the misstated size or use characteristics that you now bring up? What about email to ebay, paypal or others challenging the transaction.

The problem I have is that you are bolstering your case with evidence that is not available. IF there were misstatements in the description then I see it your way, however you are responsible for gathering and keeping this information, that is your obligation as the buyer. Who knows, if you had raised these matters at the time of purchase the result may have been diffferent. To come on the site now and attack the character of a seller without the key evidence is simply not fair.

If you have timely back and forth email then by all means let's see it. If not then I think we are done here, there is nothing more to say.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

Incorrect you did not ever say it was a size 46. Because the tag was nicely cut on the second number of the size. You stated to me I believe it was a size 54. You could not have provided a size photo seeing the tag is missing the second number. That is wrong. I wish I had saved the emails but I did change from Aol to DSL and never thought about saving them to my computer somewhere. Ok so you sold me a bogus,crap,worthless,mis-represented jersey. Are you actually willing to take it back?If you would like a picture of the tag I will gladly take one and you can see I did not alter it. That is exactly the way it came to me.





You should not use the term "fake" lightly. Bogus, crap, worthless, mis-represented are fine. "Fake" implies intentionally altering an item to deceive. I don't do that. Your quote above is a full-on blanket statement. How can you prove this statement?
Can you post a close-up of the tagging on your Kovalev? I could not see the size tag on your webshots. When I sold it to you, there was a "46" satin half inch flag tag attatched to the Cosby tag. I never said anything about the size. I only included a detailed photo of the size tag in the listing.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

Ok so you are done here. No problem. The seller has admitted I brought up the validity of the jersey. Leaves out crucial bits of info like ignoring emails and size difference but the fact is exactly as I put when I satrted the thread.





Hockey, don't know anyone involved here but thought it might be helpful to have some of the facts. When did you purchase the jersey? Do you have copies of the emails sent to the seller complaining about the misstated size or use characteristics that you now bring up? What about email to ebay, paypal or others challenging the transaction.

The problem I have is that you are bolstering your case with evidence that is not available. IF there were misstatements in the description then I see it your way, however you are responsible for gathering and keeping this information, that is your obligation as the buyer. Who knows, if you had raised these matters at the time of purchase the result may have been diffferent. To come on the site now and attack the character of a seller without the key evidence is simply not fair.

If you have timely back and forth email then by all means let's see it. If not then I think we are done here, there is nothing more to say.

[flaco1801]

the thread doesnt deserve anymore response to this combatant, its pointless.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

I am not combatant. What are you the dictator here?

[both-teams-played-hard]

Incorrect you did not ever say it was a size 46. Because the tag was nicely cut on the second number of the size. You stated to me I believe it was a size 54. You could not have provided a size photo seeing the tag is missing the second number.

I have NEVER cut a size tag or added wear or repair marks to anything. You've now crossed the line. Don't question my character when you have no facts to back you up. I said the size was what ever size was printed on the size tag. Provide a photo of the size tag. Upon viewing, I will easily see if you are telling the truth. You have resorted to lying, because you have no facts to back up your case. You are not getting my money back.


THE END

[HassanWM]

One thing for sure. I notice a trend of long time dealers/collectors getting dirty once in a while. Amazing to observe.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

First off I never said YOU cut anything. Do not be so defensive. I have nothing to lie about I have yet to do anything wrong. I never said you cut a tag. I told exactly how the transaction went down. And you saying I will never get YOUR money back only shows your charachter. Nice job on that one. It was the end 3 years ago when you ignored emails.

I accept the fact you sold an non game worn jersey as a game worn jersey. And you do nothing to fix problems. But what this does do is make people who are not under a dictatorship like some here make a wise and informend choice. If you do not like the fact that I called you out sorry. 3 years ago you should have responded. But then again as you said I was only looking to resell the jersey. So it is ok for you not to stand behind a product you sell. Classy.




I have NEVER cut a size tag or added wear or repair marks to anything. You've now crossed the line. Don't question my character when you have no facts to back you up. I said the size was what ever size was printed on the size tag. Provide a photo of the size tag. Upon viewing, I will easily see if you are telling the truth. You have resorted to lying, because you have no facts to back up your case. You are not getting my money back.


THE END

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

BTW from a cut tag you can tell if I am telling the truth? Yet cannot tell if a jersey is game worn or not. You may want to really rethink selling jerseys.

[HOCKEYPHOTO]

What no whitty come back? Or did I just prove this is what in fact I said it is?