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gujerseylover
01-07-2006, 07:39 PM
Take a look at this auction Bernie has for another Peyton Manning.

http://cgi.ebay.com/2001-PEYTON-MANNING-GAME-USED-COLTS-ROAD-JERSEY-PSI_W0QQitemZ8744785069QQcategoryZ86829QQssPageNam eZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It looks like he was able to resolve the problem with the short sleeves, but now there is a problem with the long sleeves.

Bernies sleeve numbers appear to be approx 3/4" from the Reebok logo. The real jersey is approx 2 1/2" from the logo. Clearly not the same:

December 10th:

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/1508067.jpg?x=x&dasite=GettyImages&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D05020109421603F242AD22FCFC9CECAE924E043 CE4B

December 2nd:

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/507802.jpg?x=x&dasite=GettyImages&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D05020109421773AFF6A006561036D156965EDF6 8B63

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/507926.jpg?x=x&dasite=GettyImages&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D05020109421005FC67A05C35F8DEAEF869620B6 AB01

Nov 4th:
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/544199.jpg?x=x&dasite=GettyImages&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D0502010942115867647AE60F36B2A0593F0A86B D011

Just a few examples.

It gets better, the colts did not wear a ribbed cotton neckline in 2001 as
far as I know. I believe they stopped wearing them earlier. The position of
the NFL logo, cut of the neckline and the ribbed material is incorrect. The
jersey should have a dazzle cloth elastic neckline. Ask if anyone else has
a 2001 colts jersey they can check.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/507548.jpg?x=x&dasite=GettyImages&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=AB27D05020109421E5D2A814EE76E4142A95C0DB141D FB92

This is the 3rd Manning jersey from 2001. One blue one with short sleeves, one white one with short sleeves, and this one. He says he gets them all from the team, I don't know what team he is talking about. Maybe it is Team Reebok. He also had a bad Marvin Harrrison, all of these were already confirmed on this board.

Bernie J. Gernay
01-07-2006, 11:45 PM
Wow, we have more experts on this forum than we know what to do with. I apologize if you are unable photo-match every item we have up for auction. Sorry but I do not have the time nor the resources to go through game footage of every minute played in a particular season of each player and post images with the specific item. When we get a jersey from the team, and it shows game use it is sold as such. We do not take out a measuring tape to examine the exact dimensions between the sleeve numbers and the manufacturer logo or the measurements of the distance from the NFL logo to the top of the numbers.

You state "the colts did not wear a ribbed cotton neckline in 2001 as
far as I know. I believe they stopped wearing them earlier." Not much confidence by you in those statements with "as far as I know" and "I believe". The problem is, you don't know, because you are 100% incorrect.

We do not buy jerseys from any other source except the player or equipment manager. I'd hate to list our Curtis Martin gamer unwashed from 2002 with a 99 neck tag and the LH (Leon Hess) memorial patch removed from the shoulder. I bet I'd be in big trouble with the experts here if that happened.

apujols04
01-08-2006, 03:30 AM
Wow, we have more experts on this forum than we know what to do with. I apologize if you are unable photo-match every item we have up for auction. Sorry but I do not have the time nor the resources to go through game footage of every minute played in a particular season of each player and post images with the specific item. When we get a jersey from the team, and it shows game use it is sold as such. We do not take out a measuring tape to examine the exact dimensions between the sleeve numbers and the manufacturer logo or the measurements of the distance from the NFL logo to the top of the numbers.

You state "the colts did not wear a ribbed cotton neckline in 2001 as
far as I know. I believe they stopped wearing them earlier." Not much confidence by you in those statements with "as far as I know" and "I believe". The problem is, you don't know, because you are 100% incorrect.

We do not buy jerseys from any other source except the player or equipment manager. I'd hate to list our Curtis Martin gamer unwashed from 2002 with a 99 neck tag and the LH (Leon Hess) memorial patch removed from the shoulder. I bet I'd be in big trouble with the experts here if that happened.

This forum.......wow. They are rough Bernie. Very good post. Some people on this site just get mean and type without thinking about how the words look and may be wrong. I believe you aquired these jerseys from a good source. I would love to own that Manning jersey.

kingjammy24
01-08-2006, 05:45 AM
"Wow, we have more experts on this forum than we know what to do with."

Bernie, the last thing in the world I would expect from you is sarcasm and facetiousness regarding the members of this forum because if it hadn't been for the "experts" on this forum, then some poor sap would've ended up buying your short-sleeved '02 Manning, that you ended up removing, for over a thousand dollars. You should thank your lucky stars for the 'experts' on this forum who did their homework on the jersey when you yourself, 'expert football authenticator' and 'president of PSI' admitted you "just didn't get into the research". (Chris and Eric, I realize he works for Global and Global is helping you guys to sell memberships, but I'm not stating anything false here, and personally I'm tired of 'experts' explaining their mistakes by saying 'I didn't do the due diligence').

"Sorry but I do not have the time nor the resources to go through game footage of every minute played in a particular season of each player.."

Overexaggerating doesn't help your case. Nobody ever suggested you "go through game footage of every minute of each player". Peyton Manning does not change jerseys every minute and there are only 16 games in an NFL season. It took me 15 minutes last time and I wasn't even the one selling a $2000 jersey.

"When we get a jersey from the team, and it shows game use it is sold as such. We do not take out a measuring tape to examine the exact dimensions between the sleeve numbers and the manufacturer logo or the measurements of the distance from the NFL logo to the top of the numbers."

Bernie, since the Colts seem to be selling you somewhat 'odd' jerseys, perhaps it would behoove you and your clients to 'take out the measuring tape' lest another '02 Manning incident occur and the 'experts' on this forum aren't around to catch it for you. By the way, did you ever contact the Colts to inquire why the Manning they sent you was so atypical?

"We do not buy jerseys from any other source except the player or equipment manager."

So out of curiosity, where did your "late 80's" Montana's come from?
Joe himself? or Bronco Hinek? I'm genuinely curious why you don't offer any sort of documentation from the Colts with your jerseys? Wouldn't it be a great thing to offer your buyers?

"I'd hate to list our Curtis Martin gamer unwashed from 2002 with a 99 neck tag and the LH (Leon Hess) memorial patch removed from the shoulder. I bet I'd be in big trouble with the experts here if that happened."

Is it necessary to be facetious Bernie? Try to remember, with each posting you represent yourself, your company, Global Authenticated, and GameUsedUniverse (seeing as how you're one of the 'experts' listed).
Choosing to respond to posts with sarcasm and without offering a single ounce of your 'expertise' and knowledge doesn't make you look good. You could've easily replied by sharing your knowledge of Manning/Colts jerseys and explained the collars and sleeves in a way that would've helped educate everyone on the forum. I'm left wondering why you didn't. Instead all you did was post a message full of nothing but sarcasm.

Rudy.

trsent
01-08-2006, 06:29 AM
Rudy and I often butt heads, but I'll stand behind him on this one. I thought Bernie's post basically stated that the questioning of his item was out of line because he doesn't have to research an item when obtained right from a team or equipment manager.

I know I bought a jersey from a former teammate of the Hall of Fame player years ago, only to find years and years later that the jersey was not game used. I was upset, but I did more homework and found the jersey was no good. It happens, I know the great Bobby Cox once sent me 10 "game used jersey" only to find two were game used and eight were store model jerseys.

It happens in the real world.

hof89
01-08-2006, 08:59 AM
I look at that Peyton Manning jersey and *WHAT STANDS OUT AT ME IS THE CUT*....look how wide and boxy the jersey is...*IT LOOKS WRONG TO ME, BUT CAN OTHERS ATTEST TO PEYTON'S JERSEY CUT DURING THIS SEASON?*

(this post has been re-written to adhere to the rules of the forum while still expressing the same opinions/information)

Eric
01-08-2006, 12:20 PM
This forum.......wow. They are rough Bernie. Very good post. Some people on this site just get mean and type without thinking about how the words look and may be wrong. I believe you aquired these jerseys from a good source. I would love to own that Manning jersey.

If I am reading it correctly, people here are not questioning whether or not these Colts jerseys came from a good source. It could be from the player himself and still not be correct so homework must be done by the seller and the buyer.

Here's an excerpt from a New York Daily News column written by Michael O'Keeffe

"Players' memories aren't always golden, says Spencer. Al Gionfriddo, a former Brooklyn Dodger who died last year at 81, consigned the glove he used for his jaw-dropping catch of a DiMaggio blast in the 1947 World Series to a MastroNet auction in 2001 without realizing he had already shipped the glove to Cooperstown in 1974. MastroNet, which had told Gionfriddo the glove would fetch as much as $100,000, ended up selling the mitt for $12,000 - to Gionfriddo's wife."

kingjammy24
01-08-2006, 06:00 PM
Wow Eric, not quite the response I expected from you. But I think you're spot on.
Unless someone personally goes into the locker room and removes the jersey from a player's back after a game, due diligence is always required.
Team sold or player sold is not a justification for failing to do your homework nor is it a guarantee of authenticity.
If the Jays sent me a 1990 Russell jersey, for example, the last thing I would think is that it's legit. My first thoughts would be that it was made for a photo shoot, promo, charity giveaway and I'd call them to up to discuss why it isn't a Wilson. To blindly take a jersey from a team or player and say "well it shows use and it's from the team so it must be good" is naive at best and dangerous at worst. To then go a step further and issue an LOA for it based solely on those 2 aspects is irresponsible. Fonts, styles, patches, sizes, rosters, etcetcetc all need to be checked regardless of provenance.
Your quote re: Gionfriddo was amusing. Not only do some teams, managers, players simply not know what they're really dealing with, but some intentionally mislead for the sake of profit. What about those jerseys directly from Manny Ramirez? Or the jerseys and bats signed by Arod as "game used"? Players will order spares to give away to friends or to sell privately, teams will order spares for photo shoots and charities. These spares find their way into hobby. They're hardly gameworn (or even game-issued) even if they are directly from the team/player. The source of an item is only 1 aspect in determining it's authenticity and it's naive to think it's the only aspect you need to consider.

Rudy.

hof89
01-08-2006, 08:33 PM
I look at that Peyton Manning jersey and *WHAT STANDS OUT AT ME IS THE CUT*....look how wide and boxy the jersey is...*IT LOOKS WRONG TO ME, BUT CAN OTHERS ATTEST TO PEYTON'S JERSEY CUT DURING THIS SEASON?*

(this post has been re-written to adhere to the rules of the forum while still expressing the same opinions/information)


Wow, I got edited???? Whatever happened to the 1st ammendment?

EndzoneSports
01-08-2006, 09:22 PM
Wow Eric, not quite the response I expected from you. But I think you're spot on.
Unless someone personally goes into the locker room and removes the jersey from a player's back after a game, due diligence is always required.
Team sold or player sold is not a justification for failing to do your homework nor is it a guarantee of authenticity.
If the Jays sent me a 1990 Russell jersey, for example, the last thing I would think is that it's legit. My first thoughts would be that it was made for a photo shoot, promo, charity giveaway and I'd call them to up to discuss why it isn't a Wilson. To blindly take a jersey from a team or player and say "well it shows use and it's from the team so it must be good" is naive at best and dangerous at worst. To then go a step further and issue an LOA for it based solely on those 2 aspects is irresponsible. Fonts, styles, patches, sizes, rosters, etcetcetc all need to be checked regardless of provenance.
Your quote re: Gionfriddo was amusing. Not only do some teams, managers, players simply not know what they're really dealing with, but some intentionally mislead for the sake of profit. What about those jerseys directly from Manny Ramirez? Or the jerseys and bats signed by Arod as "game used"? Players will order spares to give away to friends or to sell privately, teams will order spares for photo shoots and charities. These spares find their way into hobby. They're hardly gameworn (or even game-issued) even if they are directly from the team/player. The source of an item is only 1 aspect in determining it's authenticity and it's naive to think it's the only aspect you need to consider.

Rudy.

All-

A hypothetical situation... Each of several different people have exactly (for argument's sake) the same 49ers Joe Montana GU jersey that you want to buy. Each has the same story regarding provenance with no documented proof (that the shirt came directly from the collection of 49ers Equipment Manager Bronco Hinek who received it as a gift from Montana following the NFC Championship game of 198?) and no 3rd party authentication. At the same asking price who will you buy from?

Me - a faceless person from the Internet that you only know by a sign-in name
Your local neighborhood card dealer who just happened upon the deal of a lifetime
The folks at Grey Flannel, dealers with a national reputation
An intern from the 49ers equipment department
Bronco Hinek himself
Joe Montana himselfTruth be told, if you wanted the jersey you'd probably be willing to buy it from any of them... with a sliding scale of due diligence required.

From someone unknown, the prudent buyer would do a great deal of homework to verify and make him/herself as comfortable as possible with the purchase. As you go through the list, most would feel that less work would be required as the implicit level of trust increases. As some point, some, if not all, would reach a comfort level where they would just be willing to take one of these folks at their word (a rare occasion these days, but for you younger folks, trust me, business used to be actually conducted based on things like trust, honor, and a person's word).

While I make no pretenses to know anything about this particular item, and certainly not enough to call someone's reputation into question over it, here's another thought to ponder: Is it not possible that Bernie acquired said item in good faith from a source, whom he implicitly trusted and simply offered the item as presented? Hold on for just a minunte as I can hear those fingers warming up on the keyboard for a reply as you think, "But he's a professional dealer, he should have know... Should have found out... Could have..." While we expect the people that we buy from to be honest, trustworthy, and forthright in their dealings, in the same breath we tell these dealers that they'd better not place the same faith in their sources becuase they're lying, cheating scoundrels and when you buy from them, you sure better spend at least 10 hours on line comparing evey conceivable Getty/Corbis photo out there to the item to ensure that no inconsistencies exist, lest ye be drawn and quartered at Ye Ol GameUsedForum [OK, pardon the rant, I've drifted a bit to the right here]... As I said, I don't know the specifics about the situation, only pointing out that there are alternate scanarios to the one which unfairly paints Bernie as a moron at best and a crook at worst.

Point being is that we're awfully quick at the draw with the incendiary comments (even the tilte "Bernie is at is again!" implies confrontation from the get-go) and then we feign surprise when the attacked person lashes out defensively. Instead of asking non-accusatory questions and presenting alternative evidence in a profession, respectful manner, many on this board prefer to use the drive-by approach--throw the Molotov cocktail while passing at 55 then watch from a safe distance as the wind fans the flames.

This forum has such wonderful potential for education through the exchange of information, but unless we can learn to communicate in a more professional and respecteful manner--being mindful of how our "innocent comments and questions" could effect others--it is likely that this forum will continue digress to the point where there will be nothing remaining but poor Eric, refereeing over a couple bickering children.

Eric
01-08-2006, 11:12 PM
This forum has such wonderful potential for education through the exchange of information, but unless we can learn to communicate in a more professional and respecteful manner--being mindful of how our "innocent comments and questions" could effect others--it is likely that this forum will continue digress to the point where there will be nothing remaining but poor Eric, refereeing over a couple bickering children.

I just wanted to re-post that last paragraph to make sure that people didn't miss it the first time it was posted.

I will repeat myself- unfounded accusations will be edited or deleted.

That's it. Every couple of months people around here get in an all out war- and I have to start editing posts, which angers everyone even more. All I am doing is trying to be fair to everyone

Why did I re-edit and re-write HOF89's post above? To save you the trouble of dealing with a lawsuit because even though I and others have said it many times, when you make unfounded comments affecting people's livelihoods you are ultimately responsible for the consequences. Instead of outrage, you should be thanking me.

Eric
moderator

R. C. Walker
01-09-2006, 12:15 AM
Whatever happened to the 1st ammendment?

The 1st Amendment is a privilege . . . Be responsible whenever using it.

kingjammy24
01-09-2006, 12:23 AM
Patrick:

Since PSI explicitly states it gets all of it's jerseys from either 1) players or 2) equipment managers I simply wanted to know if it came from either Montana or Hinek. That's all. I didn't think it was accusatory. Merely an inquiry as to the origins, given that PSI has stated there are only 2 possibilities. As well, I was curious why PSI doesn't offer Colts documentation as many teams these days offer documentation to their buyers. I don't know of a more polite, flowery way of asking.

Nobody called anyone a crook. Nobody said don't place any faith in anyone. Nobody said spend 10 hrs online searching through "every conceivable getty image". I'm very surprised there's any opposition whatsoever to the simple idea that "due diligence is always required".
(Regardless of how it was done back when Truman was in office, due diligence does not simply mean trusting your source and I can't imagine you disagree with me on that).

Rudy.

ChrisCavalier
01-09-2006, 01:31 AM
Wow, I got edited???? Whatever happened to the 1st ammendment?
The fact of the matter is that there is a set of forum rules to which forum participants are responsible to abide in to post on the forum. It is probably a good idea for everyone to review these rules again so they understand their responsibility. Here is a link to the forum rules:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=99

Let me repeat here some of the rules regarding the administration of the forum:

Your membership on this forum is subject to the rules detailed above (see attached) and the rules are subject to change without prior notice. Breaching these rules can result in post or thread deletion, and continued breaches can result in your account being temporary locked or permanently banned.
The decision to warn or ban a member will depend on the infraction and is solely at the discretion of the Administrator.
Administrators have the final say in any rule dispute.So everyone understands, we are certainly free to do whatever we want. However, there are times when we sacrifice some of these freedoms in order to be part of a community. For example, you are free to drive your car and you are free to drink alcohol. However, if you want to be part of a community you accept the rules established by the community that you cannot drink and drive. To do so would potentially harm others. That is why laws are created and that is why you will find your driving privilege revoked if you drink and drive. It is something you agree to in order to be part of a community.

Again, rules are established to protect the community. That is exactly why there are rules for this forum community. As a participant please abide by these rules and understand your responsibilities as a member of this community.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe

gujerseylover
01-09-2006, 11:26 PM
We do not buy jerseys from any other source except the player or equipment manager.

I direct you to this post on the forum started by Bernie

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=326&highlight=portis

He posted a Clinton Portis jersey for sale. It was then brought up by another member that he bought the jersey on ebay. This led Bernie to admit that he bought it on Ebay FROM someone who got it from the Redskins. I don't think I have to say the word contradiction.



I'd hate to list our Curtis Martin gamer unwashed from 2002 with a 99 neck tag and the LH (Leon Hess) memorial patch removed from the shoulder. I bet I'd be in big trouble with the experts here if that happened.

Just curious how Curtis Martin wore a 1999 Nike jersey in 2002, a year where the NFL had an exclusive with Reebok. In addition to removing the LH patch, did the Jets also remove the Nike swooshes and replace them with Reebok symbols too?

Bernie J. Gernay
01-10-2006, 12:42 AM
Yes, I received documentation from the Redskins when I purchased that game used Portis jersey.

Onto the Curtis Martin...

It is very clear that you are a newbie collector. That is ok. I'll gladly walk you through this. Let me explain how it works when a team goes into a transition stage with the jersey manufacturer. When teams went from Puma to Reebok (good example the Rams), or Starter to Puma (good example the Vikings), Nike to Reebok (Jets, Giants, Ravens, etc) the team will sew the new jersey manufacturer logo (usually a rectangle shaped box) over the old manufacturer logo so that the teams may wear it for the following season(s). This was common for almost every team from 1999-2002. This is something known by even the common novice football collector. Hope that clears up some confusion for you.

Eric
01-10-2006, 11:45 AM
Message to GUJERSEYLOVER

Please email me ASAP, I need to talk to you about something.

I can be found at ecky3@aol.com

Eric

apujols04
01-10-2006, 01:26 PM
Yes, I received documentation from the Redskins when I purchased that game used Portis jersey.

Onto the Curtis Martin...

It is very clear that you are a newbie collector. That is ok. I'll gladly walk you through this. Let me explain how it works when a team goes into a transition stage with the jersey manufacturer. When teams went from Puma to Reebok (good example the Rams), or Starter to Puma (good example the Vikings), Nike to Reebok (Jets, Giants, Ravens, etc) the team will sew the new jersey manufacturer logo (usually a rectangle shaped box) over the old manufacturer logo so that the teams may wear it for the following season(s). This was common for almost every team from 1999-2002. This is something known by even the common novice football collector. Hope that clears up some confusion for you.
Bernie,

Please do not take this as an attack on you. I think it's great you just shared the info on the Martin jersey and the different things NFL teams often have done.

The one concern I have is that when you and certain other people posting on this thread (HOF F89) expressed concern in regards to the 2 patches incl. the year patch on my Terry Bradshaw jersey. I also remember people here wondering why the numbers and nameplate were loosly stitched--and making the type of accusations which have since been not allowed for legal resons...finally. Since these things were of question, I did some research. i do not remember you ever sharing the information readily available from AMI auction descriptions (from Ecksen and lampson sp). The claims were that Steelers jerseys were sometimes sewn loosly on the nameplate and numbers due to wanting the numbers to tear off if pulled hard instead on the entire jersey tearing. ONE of the descriptions of AMI's vintage steelers jerseys from the era of my bradshaw jersey clearly stated that the numbers and/or nameplate were often stitched loose in the factory to prevent the jersey from ripping--cause they could just restitch the number if it was sewn loosly and tore off.

other interesting facts in the AMI auction decriptions of 1970's G/U steelers jerseys state that eccentric (sp?) steelers equiptment managers would remove tage from the jerseys during/after the seasons and reapply them when requested for charity auctions or other events. thus, maybe one tag is diritier that another because they were the tags the equiption managers later chose to reapply. A wrong year tag on a bradshaw jersey? Well, according to bernie, this can happen as with a quirky year tag on the martin jersey. anything is possible. maybe even bernie's manning jersey is legit. Who are we to call Bernie a liar?

i think if you can come online to the forum and post doubts about a jersey and accusations (legal ramifications?) at a seller, you bettter check your facts first. nobody including hof89 and bernie told me of these quirks about the steelers jerseys while they spent 5 pages trying to disprove my jerseys.

gameusedfan
01-11-2006, 02:17 PM
As one of the "newbies" I can tell you all (including Eric) that I deeply appreciate these kinds of arguments. There may be some verbal venom being spewn around but the underlying debates are incredibly enlightening. I have been collecting small stuff for a couple years now but in '05 I moved up to the game used part of the hobby and have spent approximately $20k at four different auction houses. Fortunately, I have done well in business so I have the resources to collect. But it is comforting to know that with knowledge comes confidence. I just want whoever is debating to realize that taking time to educate others (such as Bernie just did with the Martin jersey) will only enhance the values of their own collections.

New blood with money to spend is the ultimate way to ensure that the values of your own collections rises in value. I personally appreciate these arguments.

Roger

P.S. If anyone comes across any pre-1980 Eagles related, one-of-a-kind items, that they want to sell, email me.

EndzoneSports
01-21-2006, 11:36 PM
Patrick:

Since PSI explicitly states it gets all of it's jerseys from either 1) players or 2) equipment managers I simply wanted to know if it came from either Montana or Hinek. That's all. I didn't think it was accusatory. Merely an inquiry as to the origins, given that PSI has stated there are only 2 possibilities. As well, I was curious why PSI doesn't offer Colts documentation as many teams these days offer documentation to their buyers. I don't know of a more polite, flowery way of asking.

Nobody called anyone a crook. Nobody said don't place any faith in anyone. Nobody said spend 10 hrs online searching through "every conceivable getty image". I'm very surprised there's any opposition whatsoever to the simple idea that "due diligence is always required".
(Regardless of how it was done back when Truman was in office, due diligence does not simply mean trusting your source and I can't imagine you disagree with me on that).

Rudy.

Rudy-

First off, my apologies for the delay in response, but daily scans of and replies to posts on this forum aren’t generally at the top of my ‘to do’ list. No offense intended. Also, no need to take offense to and/or become defensive if I should respond to a thread in which you’ve posted. Particularly when I address the response to ‘all’ rather than to you directly. This was not meant to take a dig at any specific thing that you said, it was simply a response to the general air of distain that permeated this thread and many others like it. It started with the inflammatory title of the original posting and then just degraded from there including, I might add, comments from you. So I in this instance, if the jersey fits…

If, as you stated in your response to me, all you wanted to know was the source of the jersey, why in your reply to Bernie did you have to bury that question in the fourth paragraph after first spending the first three paragraphs criticizing his response to someone else? While not suggesting that you need to find a “flowery way of asking”, I most certainly contend that there could have been a more courteous and professional way to pose the question, if this was indeed the only purpose of your post.

But again, my final point was not to specifically cast criticism for the action or words of any one person. It was to point out that there are way too many examples of this type of activity occurring. A lot of the hobby’s “insiders” will continue to remain on the outside of this forum, refusing to participate, as long as it continues to be perceived as a place where topics are not discussed in a manner in which an educational exchange of information can occur in a non-offending environment for all participants.

Respectfully,

both-teams-played-hard
01-22-2006, 01:10 PM
A lot of the hobby’s “insiders” will continue to remain on the outside of this forum, refusing to participate, as long as it continues to be perceived as a place where topics are not discussed in a manner in which an educational exchange of information can occur in a non-offending environment for all participants.



Who are these "insiders", and how can this forum benefit from their participation?

EndzoneSports
01-26-2006, 06:48 AM
Who are these "insiders", and how can this forum benefit from their participation?

These "insiders" to which I refer, are a good many of those expereinced hobbyists who have been involved in the buying, selling, and trading of game-used/worn memorabilia for 20, 30 or more years and generally are the folks often handling (and/or holding) many of the hobby's premium pieces. This as opposed to the 20-year-old Johnny-come-lately who's been at it for 3 or 4 years, thinks he knows everything there is to know, and spends most of his time trying to photo match all of those quality gems being circulated on eBay.

What do we have to gain from these insiders? How about decades of accumulated infomation, education and wisdom? Much of which, these folks would be glad to share, if only we were able to provide an environment condusive to their feeling welcome to participate.

Regards,

bat_master
01-26-2006, 11:30 AM
Hello All,

I can only wish that I had been a collector for 20 years or more. I think that in a hobby like this it is extremely important that as a group we have experienced veterans. As any sports team will tell you it is almost necessary to have veteran leadership when trying to accomplish a goal.

It is because of the hobby veterans that Patrick wrote of that many of the really great pieces of this hobby have been saved from the card company chopping block. I know that as I dove deeper into collecting I started to become concerned that so many of the "treasures" of the game were being cut up to become cards.

After I read through some of the stories in the "Smithsonian Baseball" book it really hit home that there are still spectacular items being held in private collections that will likely never have to face being cut up. I guess I really don't have to worry so much that down the road there won't be any complete Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, or Mickey Mantle uniforms out there; existing only in a patchwork quilt of cardboard circa 2005.

Tim Byington

Eric
01-26-2006, 01:57 PM
Patrick-

Thank you for the explanation.

As you know Chris Cavalier and I are working very hard to create an atmosphere that allows people to ask questions, offer opinions and comment about the hobby in an intelligent matter.

To those hobby veterans you speak of who have years of experience but do not want to participate in this site because of the bickering, I invite them to contact me at ecky3@aol.com so we can discuss a way they can share information on the forum in a way they'd be comfortable with. Perhaps give these insiders the chance to write articles about their years in the hobby, or a chance to showcase the premium items in their collections.

I would be very excited about the idea of finding any way to include these folks. I love the hobby and would look forward to learning as much as I possibly can about it. Any information they share here would be a huge advantage to educating the people Patrick referred to as those forum members who are new to the hobby.

I am interested in anyones thoughts on this.
Eric
moderator

kingjammy24
01-26-2006, 02:26 PM
"Much of which, these folks would be glad to share, if only we were able to provide an environment condusive to their feeling welcome to participate."

Ok, vague notions of an "environment condusive to feeling welcome" aside, what does this actually entail? I'm constantly hearing how the Lampsons' and Imperatos' of the world are only too willing to come here and share all of their knowledge if only we would "change the environment". Seeing as how I'm sure many on this Forum would like to have these people join us, what exactly should we do to coax them here?

"This as opposed to the 20-year-old Johnny-come-lately who's been at it for 3 or 4 years, thinks he knows everything there is to know, and spends most of his time trying to photo match all of those quality gems being circulated on eBay."

Patrick, this Forum needs all sorts of collectors. Beginners, veterans, and everyone in between.
How 'welcome' are new collectors going to feel when users like yourself and Bernie act condescending towards anyone who didn't start collecting when Pie Traynor was playing ball?

Why write such a derogatory description of new collectors, rather than simply call them new or inexperienced without any of that additional vitriol?
Why not then also describe experienced collectors in a similarly derogatory way as "50-yr-old, crusty, elitist relics who think if they don't know it, then it's not true, who have nothing better to do all day then deride young collectors and anyone else who doesn't authenticate a jersey simply using their fading memory and a couple of glorified anecdotes they picked up while getting loaded with Mickey Mantle at Toots Shore's"?

"If, as you stated in your response to me, all you wanted to know was the source of the jersey, why in your reply to Bernie did you have to bury that question in the fourth paragraph after first spending the first three paragraphs criticizing his response to someone else?"

Because at that point I was more concerned with Bernie's constant condescension towards new members than his 49'ers jersey, which I had already asked about several times over in numerous different threads. I never received an answer and don't believe I ever will.

"A lot of the hobby’s “insiders” will continue to remain on the outside of this forum, refusing to participate, as long as it continues to be perceived as a place where topics are not discussed in a manner in which an educational exchange of information can occur in a non-offending environment for all participants."

Patrick, as you said in an earlier post, this Forum for the most part is simply a mirror of society. I'm genuinely hard-pressed to find very many malicious or offensive comments on here. I see genuine disagreements, I see alot of 'educational exchange of information' occuring on a daily basis, and I see a lot of people passionate about this hobby helping each other out. I don't see flame wars, I don't see vulgarity, and I don't see a whole lot of offensive posts. Whenever any of these occur, Eric or Chris are pretty quick to shut it down. Oddly enough, what I do continue to find offensive are the pictures you paint of new collectors as a "20-year old kid who can afford to sit online all day because he has no job and lives with his parents" as you described in an earlier post. As much as you feel this Forum is somehow unwelcoming to 'insiders', I imagine comments like yours are unwelcoming to new collectors.

Rudy.

ChrisCavalier
01-26-2006, 04:45 PM
A lot of the hobby’s “insiders” will continue to remain on the outside of this forum, refusing to participate, as long as it continues to be perceived as a place where topics are not discussed in a manner in which an educational exchange of information can occur in a non-offending environment for all participants.
Hello Patrick-

Thank you for your feedback in your post. While I do understand there are some people out there that may have established some general opinions about this forum, I believe we have come a long way in promoting a "non-offending environment" for forum participants. In fact, I think the new rules that have been put in place, along with Eric moderating, has really brought this forum to place where "offensive" posts are weeded out very quickly. However, I am willing to admit if I am mistaken about the progress this forum has made in creating a more positive environment and would be very open to any suggestions you may have.

Please let us know what other processes you think need to be implemented to ensure the non threatening environment these hobby "insiders" are seeking. This forum is committed to creating a place where no member will ever have to feel that they will be subjected to any unfounded attacks, etc. when participating. Thus, if you have any suggestions we are open to hear them. However, you can feel confident letting these "insiders", or anyone else you know for that matter, know that this forum is not -- nor will in be the future -- a place were an offensive environment will be tolerated. In that you have our promise.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier
CEO - Game Used Universe

EndzoneSports
01-29-2006, 09:23 AM
One last shot at this to clear the air of a couple misconceptions and then hopefully I can put this one to bed...

First to Rudy:

After re-reading my original post, I can see how my choice of words in describing a particular stereotype that I had in mind could have been misconstrued so as being derogatory towards young collectors. This was NOT my intent and for this I apologize to any whom I may have offended. Some 15 to 20 years ago, I WAS that 20-year old novice, collector. Instead, my intent was to stereotype the IMMATURE collector, with full recognition that immaturity is not bounded by chronological age. It is no doubt immaturity, not inexperience, that poses the greater risk to the success of this forum, leave no doubt about that.

Secondly, I stand by my opinion that the success of this forum would be greatly enhanced with the participation of those from all facets and levels of the hobby--dealers and collectors, the 50-year-old veterans and the 20-year-old new comers. Each and every one has something valuable to bring to the table. As far as needing to "coax them here", in many cases, it's not necessary. They're already here! As one forum member stated in another post/thread, (and I paraphrase) "Don't you think these guys at least read the boards and know what's going on?". Two of the three "insiders" to which I referred read the posts on this board on at least a semi-regular basis. It is because of their familiarity with some of the antics that they refuse to actively participate.

So what do we need to do? It's hard to get into their minds and know for sure, but the criticisms that I hear are not those of the outright attacks, flaming, and vulgarity that you mention, but rather the more subtle personal agendas that certain members seem to have where they are going to call into question every inventory item of a particular dealer or every item offered by a given auction house or every item blessed by a given authenticator. Don't get me wrong, one of the great benefits of this forum is to point out potential problems. When, however, within a few short weeks of observing, a new member can easily establish the pattern of who's needling whom, you start to get the feeling that it's not just about pointing out the occasional random problem. Part two--and one of my personal criticisms in the time that I've been participating here--is also the lack of dignity and professionalism in which potential problems are brought to light. It would be hard to coax any new participants to this venue when we've shown though our collective past performance that, at first slip, whether intentional or otherwise, that they're likely to be metaphorically drawn and quartered as we make them look like either idiots or crooks. Should we address the issues? Sure. Couldn't it be done without the unnecessary rhetoric that seems to state, (as just one example) "Look what that bonehead Bernie has done this time!"


To Eric/Chris:

First off, my commendations for the work done to date and particularly the changes made most recently as I truly believe that this is a step in the right direction. In my response to Rudy above, I've also touched on some of your concerns as well.

This most certainly is not an environment where Eric is apt to allow open attacks to go unfettered as these are quickly cut off at the knees. While this is easy to regulate and monitor, the seemingly more abstract concept of professionalism still seems to elude many of the members--myself included at times, when as I did previously, I post a response without thought of who I might unintentionally offend.

As I've stated previously, I continue to participate here because I strongly believe in the potential that this forum has to offer for education and communication within the hobby and have faith in your leadership to take it forward.

Best regards,