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View Full Version : Who's the tailor????



Eric
04-20-2007, 04:07 PM
Here's what I'd love to know.

Who's acting as the accessory in the game used fraud being perpetrated in today's hobby?

Someone is taking clean game cut jerseys of today's star players and rookies and adding customizations which are close but not right. Teams who keep a tight hold on their equipment are now represented in every auction these days with 2005 and 2006 jerseys of the money players.

They are flooding the hobby. Items like this rejected from one auction house end up in others. It's not good.

It's not just one person involved here. Unless they happen to be a dealer and a master with a sewing machine (which I suppose is possible, but unlikely) there are other guilty parties as well.

Here are all of the steps involved in this scheme:

Someone is getting game cuts of star players (from Reebok? from the teams?) How do they get these pieces? Does Reebok/NFL/Players Association know that someone is using their product to defraud the public? Actually, I can tell you they do, but will they do something about it?

It seems that some of these game cuts either didn't have nameplates and patches (since some of the fonts on the final product are wrong AND some of the patches are in the incorrect place.)

So that means our scammers have to find false nameplates and/or patches. Patches can be found on ebay. Where can nameplates be made?

They have to have someone willing to sew on these nameplates and patches. How many places so restorations/customizations like this? Is it hard to find?

The scammers have to know what the proper customizations are supposed to look like and then order them up with their tailor.

Side by side with the real thing, you can tell the differences, but with no photo comparison, one can be fooled.

The authenticators are fooled too. You see these in many of today's high profile auction houses.

And hey- as long as your in there sewing, Mr. Tailor, how about some repairs? You see some pieces with the wrong font nameplate which has been punished with wear.

Then there are the auction houses who take these in as consignments? Are they guilty here? I'm not sure of what the answer is. If they don't know they're being had, then I'm not sure they're guilty. If they are playing dumb to get the buyer's fee, then round them up with the rest of the thieves.

What am I missing here? What do people think about all of this?
Eric

otismalibu
04-20-2007, 04:17 PM
So that means our scammers have to find false nameplates and/or patches. Patches can be found on ebay. Where can nameplates be made?

There's a company that I've had customize a couple of NFL Reebok authentics for me. They'll match the numbers, match the nameplate fabric to the jersey, match the lettering for the NOB. I have no idea where they get their materials.

34swtns
04-20-2007, 07:58 PM
Otis, I know of whom you speak!
Seriously. Eric, you've GOT to know that there are sporting apparel places in almost every major city who do good to great to perfect quality customizations on almost anything you bring in the door. Sometimes you might have to supply the nameplate material or the particular shade of twill, especially if you're working on an older style jersey, but the bottom line is if you need a garment altered in any way........ it's fairly easy to find someone to do it. I display several vintage game jerseys on the walls of my sports room and have had to have missing nameplates restored, repairs made, etc. It's quite easy to find the facilities who originally did team repairs on the pro jerseys for just about any respective team and they're usually more than happy to perform whatever task you need done. The difference between myself and some of the other unscrupulous individuals we encounter in this hobby is that my repaired or altered jerseys will never be for sale.

both-teams-played-hard
04-20-2007, 08:40 PM
Where are all the blank "team issue" jerseys coming from? I think some are taking nameplates and numbers from authentic replicas and adding them to blank team issues. My Grandma is a whiz...she once chain-stitched the Gettysburg Address...
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1987/grandmaknitsmanningat5.jpg

ksuftballfan1
04-20-2007, 09:11 PM
If they have a game cut jersey i wouldn't care if they sold as a GAME CUT JERSEY, but those greedy people make their fake alterations and sell them as game WORN/USED jerseys, It's disturbing. I was in one of my local sporting goods stores and in their jersey sample room saw a game cut shaun alexander jersey without a nameplate, a game cut santonio holmes jersey without nameplate or steelers patch and a game cut lsu jersey with nike tag that read XL. The guy their said once new style jerseys are made they sell the ones in the sample room and get new samples. This could be a similar source to where other jerseys are coming from.

ksuftballfan1
04-23-2007, 07:17 PM
Take a look at this website, www.exclusivepro.com (http://www.exclusivepro.com) , under more samples you should take a look at the shaun alexander jersey, they did a good job.

- ksuftballfan1@aol.com -

34swtns
04-23-2007, 10:39 PM
Take a look at this website, www.exclusivepro.com (http://www.exclusivepro.com) , under more samples you should take a look at the shaun alexander jersey, they did a good job.

- ksuftballfan1@aol.com -


Yep, that's ONE of them. They're one of the better known customizers (being that they do custom jobs for the NFL, MLB, NHL, etc.) but trust me, they're one of a hundred(s).

Check your local yellow pages.

G1X
04-25-2007, 01:27 AM
Gentlemen,

In observing the photos of the jerseys on the website mentioned in the previous posts, I don't see how a collector of game-used football jerseys would think that these jerseys were ever anywhere near an NFL equipment room. They are nice-looking replicas, but are not cut like gamers.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

otismalibu
04-25-2007, 08:11 AM
Mark,

I think Eric was talking about game jerseys that have been customized. If I sent EPS a blank team issued NFL jersey, I bet it would come back looking pretty good. Then I might take a few dives in the backyard to add a little "game use".

Eric
04-25-2007, 09:25 AM
My theory is that a lot of the new nfl jerseys we are seeing at auction are game cut jerseys obtained from reebok. I have a theory on how, but cann't post it because i need to connect a few dots.

These game cut jerseys don't have the proper customizations or the patches added by the teams. Sometimes they are without nameplates.

That's how you see things like a customized Shaun Alexander with wear but the wrong nameplate or a blue Eli Manning from 2004 missing the 80th anniversary patch.

Eric

allstarsplus
04-25-2007, 10:21 AM
you see things like a customized Shaun Alexander with wear but the wrong nameplate or a blue Eli Manning from 2004 missing the 80th anniversary patch.

Eric So close but yet so far!!!! You would think on the Manning jersey you could find an 80th anniversary patch to really fake it up right!

Eric
04-25-2007, 10:53 AM
So close but yet so far!!!! You would think on the Manning jersey you could find an 80th anniversary patch to really fake it up right!

Perhaps someone will....

TNTtoys
04-25-2007, 12:06 PM
I saw Exclusive Pro mentioned in an earlier post. I have used them before, and they do excellent work customizing jerseys... their business is mainly to do lettering and numbering on team jerseys, and they do some serious volume. They also put favorite player letters and numbers on blank authentic jerseys for fans or stores that sell customized (or personalized) player jerseys... this is where I have used their services. True they are 1 of many that do this service, but they are licensed to by MLB, NHL, etc. to do this. I don't see anything here that is out of the ordinary.
Where I see the line crossed is when someone submits a jersey to them (or another company that performs the similar service) for the purpose of passing off as a game worn jersey. This person has intent to commit a crime by using an unknowing participant. This person also would probably have doctored up strip tags, flag tags, and other team identifying factors that a lettering and numbering company couldn't possibly do. And of course, they probably "add" game wear to the jersey later as well (unless they are selling the jersey as team issued to that player).
I would not put this issue on the letter and number guy, as they are in business to perform a service and are licensed by all of the proper authrities to do so.

Utopian2630
04-25-2007, 01:37 PM
I saw Exclusive Pro mentioned in an earlier post. I have used them before, and they do excellent work customizing jerseys... their business is mainly to do lettering and numbering on team jerseys, and they do some serious volume. They also put favorite player letters and numbers on blank authentic jerseys for fans or stores that sell customized (or personalized) player jerseys... this is where I have used their services. True they are 1 of many that do this service, but they are licensed to by MLB, NHL, etc. to do this. I don't see anything here that is out of the ordinary.
Where I see the line crossed is when someone submits a jersey to them (or another company that performs the similar service) for the purpose of passing off as a game worn jersey. This person has intent to commit a crime by using an unknowing participant. This person also would probably have doctored up strip tags, flag tags, and other team identifying factors that a lettering and numbering company couldn't possibly do. And of course, they probably "add" game wear to the jersey later as well (unless they are selling the jersey as team issued to that player).
I would not put this issue on the letter and number guy, as they are in business to perform a service and are licensed by all of the proper authrities to do so.


I agree with TNT Toys. These places aren't really to blame, its the un-ethical people who try to pass this garbage off around the hobby. I know if/when those 'old stock' Steelers jerseys come around again, I'd probably like to buy one just to wear on gameday...not try unload as a game-worn jersey. Do you think that if someone shipped a dozen blank Colts 'game-cut jerseys' to a pro shop they'd refuse to put a dozen number 18's on them? I don't think we should fault the pro shops from doing quality work but maybe question these blanks and see where they end up.

otismalibu
04-25-2007, 02:05 PM
Can't recall if EPS does it or not, but I know some places will just ship you the nameplate and you're responsible for having it sewn on.

I used to see number kits for sale on eBay as well.

TNTtoys
04-25-2007, 02:20 PM
Can't recall if EPS does it or not, but I know some places will just ship you the nameplate and you're responsible for having it sewn on.

I used to see number kits for sale on eBay as well.

EPS does all the work on site. They have a big factory.

I sent them 2 jerseys last year -- I wanted an alterate purple D-backs jersey customized with those fancy copper letters & numbers -- wound up doing a #20 / Gonzalez. The market was running dry with these, having been out of circulation for a couple of years. I also had them do up a current style Devil Rays jersey with #63 / Morris because I love the movie "The Rookie"... Again, fantastic. My brother in law used their services to do a #99 / Vaughn Indians jersey. We wear our "movie" jerseys to family parties, etc. For us, it's entertainment... it's fun. It's a couple of guys who are passionate about all things baseball and want to wear something representing our favorite pastime. This to me is the role of the customizer for the average joe...

And the market broadens with the wide variety of jerseys out there -- for example... suppose you are a size 40 and want to wear a retail authentic jersey of John Olerud from 1997. You probably will not find such a jersey anywhere... but could you find a black retail Mets jersey from this era? Most definitely. Can you then send this jersey out to have a name and number put on? Again, most definitely. You have the ability as a fan to wear your favorite player from any era.

Lettering kits are still all over ebay... I would tend to think that these are for the guy who has the authentic who doesn't want to pay the price of shipping his jerseys to and from a lettering shop and could get the job done by a local tailor on the cheap... or maybe he could even do the work himself. Again, the lettering kits are just products that the shops are licensed to sell... it's a shady intent of the buyer that is the real issue.

I have not come across shops who will just ship a nameplate and wash their hands of the transaction from there. I'm guessing that they lose a lot of business by doing this... or they do so much business that they don't need the extra.

otismalibu
04-25-2007, 03:02 PM
EPS does all the work on site. They have a big factory.

I know. I've had a couple of jerseys done by them.

The last time I talked to Josh, I asked him if he could just mail me the nameplate & name for my jersey, because I didn't want to wait for 3 weeks. I seem to recall him saying that he could, but then I wouldn't be guaranteed a perfect match between my white jersey and my white nameplate. I opted for them to do it.

My point was simply that someone could get the materials for a fake gamer, w/o tipping their hand to the custom shop.

EPS is a legit business that does quality work.

If someone really wants to fake a jersey, they can always order some twill and see how steady their hand is. Some old yearbooks, a cheap scanner and a good pair of scissors and it ain't hard to match numbers and names. Obviously, some of the newer style numbers would be tougher. Here's one I did, on a blank Sand-Knit retail jersey.

http://webpages.charter.net/otismalibu/SKfront.jpghttp://webpages.charter.net/otismalibu/SKback.jpg

G1X
04-25-2007, 04:50 PM
Greg,

Referring back to your post #9, I understand what Eric is saying. My comment referred to the several posts previous to mine as the dialogue seemed to be specifically referencing the Seahawks' Shaun Alexander jersey on Exclusive Pro's website. The various replica NFL jerseys in the photos on their site are easily distinguishable from gamers.

On another issue that is very similar, if collectors think that there are issues with manipulating football jerseys, rest assured that it is nothing compared to what dishonest folks can do with football helmets!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

both-teams-played-hard
04-25-2007, 05:12 PM
The various replica NFL jerseys in the photos on their site are easily distinguishable from gamers.



What about BLANK team issued jerseys, where nameplates and numbers from "authentic replicas" are added? Most of these companies will sew anything, if the materials are supplied.
Does anyone think that this is the problem with the hoard of bogus NFL gamers on the market?

EndzoneSports
04-26-2007, 03:14 PM
My theory is that a lot of the new nfl jerseys we are seeing at auction are game cut jerseys obtained from reebok. I have a theory on how, but cann't post it because i need to connect a few dots.

These game cut jerseys don't have the proper customizations or the patches added by the teams. Sometimes they are without nameplates.

That's how you see things like a customized Shaun Alexander with wear but the wrong nameplate or a blue Eli Manning from 2004 missing the 80th anniversary patch.

Eric


Here's a bit of fuel to be added to the fire in support of this theory. In a recently received e-mail, an individual states...
"Recently a friend of mine visited the Ripon factory in Berlin, WI and got for me a 2002 season Al Wilson away jersey.... From what I understand, teams apparently return excess jerseys to Ripon, some used and some unused, for whatever reason(s). I have examples of practice jerseys as well as game jerseys from Ripon..... It has no signs of game use whatsoever."



http://pscoggin.com/Endzone/Graphics/temp/2002H_Ripon.jpg


The 'Outlet Store' page of Ripon's web site states, "All manufactures are left with an assortment of products that are remnants of the sales and production process. Our store offers a variety of these factory seconds as well as products made from discontinued fabric and from short roll ends of fabric."

The only visible/possible detractors are the absence of the manufacturer's Reebok tail tagging, and possibly the sizing (of the 6 tracked sales of Wilson's jerseys from 2001 through 2006, two, which were both 2003s, were of known sizing--48). While a jersey such as this would cause some concern if offered as "game-used" due to the tagging issue and lack of wear, is it possible that some of these factory seconds are offered with all tagging intact? If so, we all know how easy it is to approximate evidence of "light game wear" through a rough-and-tumble session in the back yard and a few excursions through the laundry cycle.

In addition to the confusion added by the "game-issued" and "team-issued" offerings that are so prevalent, do we now need to add a "manufacturer-issued" category to further pollute matters?

Regards,

34swtns
04-26-2007, 10:43 PM
Nice jersey. Nice flooring too.

Oh wait........... they're both mine. :mad:

I suppose it would be a matter of concern if that jersey were ever offered as "game used" but as long as it's in my posession it never will be.
Bet on it.
It's final resting place will most likely be the living room wall of a friend of mine and my wife's who's a big Denver fan.
And I have been known to have a "rough and tumble session in the back yard" before but I can guarantee you a sports jersey wasn't a part of the equation. ;)

EndzoneSports
04-27-2007, 12:49 AM
It was brought to my attention that, the manner in which my previous post was worded could be taken to imply some ill intent on the part of the jersey's owner. I wanted to publiclly clear the air to state that this was absolutely not my intent. Having seemingly been procured through legitimate channels, I was only pointing out to the community that such items being available could likely lead to similar items being misrepresented by someone who had less than honest intent. I certainly did not want to seem as if I was implying that this was the intent in this specific case. If it in anyway came across in that manner, I sincerely apologize to any and all concerned.

Sincerely,