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View Full Version : Mastro/Heritage Broaden Leap of Faith?



Eric
04-28-2007, 12:57 PM
Something struck me as I was looking through Mastro's game used helmets which closed last night.

Based on Mastro changing the facemask on the Kellen Winslow game used helmet to a style that was actually worn by Winslow (the replacement was not game used) and Heritage replacing broken clips on the Terry Bradshaw game used helmet with ones of the proper style (not game used) it caused me to look closer at the words being used in the auction descriptions.

Collecting game used is based on a leap of faith. We didn't get the items from the players first hand, and we cannot see the items in person if they're in a catalog or on the internet, so we must rely on the item description.

Mastro had a helmet which was listed as a Willie Brown game used helmet, which has Brown's number 24 on the rear. But the item description says, "Beneath the left ear hole, a black marker notation of "24" has been partially obscured by a notation of "20," suggesting possible subsequent use by Neal Colzie or I.M. Hipp. "

So it's possible that after #24 Willie Brown used this helmet, it was used by #20 Neal Colzie or I.M. Hipp.

Why is there a 24 on the rear of the helmet if it could have been used after Brown by a #20?

Why would that be in the description? HOnestly, it made me wonder- did someone change the number on the rear of the helmet back to 24?

Otherwise- why would you think it had been used by a #20 after Brown?

It's certainly possible a change was made to the helmet- in current auctions changes were made by mastro on winslow and hannah helmets and heritage on the bradshaw helmet.

Look at the description of the numbers-

"Flanking the stripe at the base are the numerals "2" and "4," which are adhered in black decals (of proper mil depth for the period)"

It doesn't say it's the original numbers and it doesn't say it isn't.

The fact that auction houses are now making artistic decisions on these pieces make me feel like it's an even greater leap of faith to look at the details of things these days.

Just throwing it out there.
Eric

Eric
04-28-2007, 11:49 PM
This also leads to the question "Should auction houses refurbish items?"

Would you rather have a helmet of a Hall of Famer with broken original clips or intact replica clips?

Personally I think once these auction houses start getting in the habit of fixing up their sale items, we're getting into a dangerous area. Leave the pieces in the original state that they're in and let the buyer decide if he wants to get it fixed up.

Eric

mvandor
04-29-2007, 08:10 AM
Personally, I'd rather have it refurbed but CLEARLY and honestly disclosed. Or perhaps an option given. Just to better the piece and save me the work.

But I can understand easily how others would differ.

But the examples you're talking about go more to the issue of deception, intentional or otherwise. Sadly, I'm getting the impression most auction houses handling gameworn NFL equipment (my area of interest) are KNOWINGLY auctioning fakes and even using their knowledge to "improve" items to better their chances of passing critical review.

Don't know how else to explain the supposed Winslow helmet with the wrong faceguard, and the undisclosed switch. If that WAS a Winslow, why was the single bar mask on it when it fell into the auction house's hands? If it had been reissued to another player, wouldn't the numbers on the back have been different?

Or the Bradshaw with the wrong clips, changed out to correct ones.

Seems to me the FBI should reopen their fraud unit and focus on auction houses this time around. Or at least that's the impression left with this novice collector.

Eric
04-29-2007, 10:39 AM
If that WAS a Winslow, why was the single bar mask on it when it fell into the auction house's hands? If it had been reissued to another player, wouldn't the numbers on the back have been different?

That's the willie brown helmet you're talking about, not the winslow. why would they guess it could have been used by another player if the number on the back was 24?

mvandor
04-29-2007, 03:12 PM
That's the willie brown helmet you're talking about, not the winslow. why would they guess it could have been used by another player if the number on the back was 24?Nope, referring to the Winslow. My understanding was that the helmet came to Mastro with a normal facemask like Fouts wore, not with the extra bar like Winslow wore. You called them on it and they changed it out. My recollection was that helmet had Winslow's 80 on the back.

Soooooooo, if that EVER was a Winslow helmet, how did a different mask get on it? It would have almost certainly have had to have been reissued to a later player before it floated out into the collecting public. However, if that was the case, it woulda had a different number on the back than the 80 almost certainly (not sure who else might have worn 80 after Winslow retired from the team and before they went to the dark blue helmets).

Eric
04-29-2007, 03:18 PM
My guess is, the shell is real but someone (in the hobby) at some point added a facemask (choosing the one Winslow wore for most of his carrer) not realizing that he wore a different one at the end of his career.

But who knows at this point. It's guesswork.
Eric

reed1216
04-29-2007, 04:27 PM
I completely agree with both of you on this point. It would be my preference to have the item as it last left the field of play. If it was recycled to another player, prior to hitting the market, it is my preference not to have it restored. It would taint the history of the item, in my eyes.

I purchased a 2003 Roger Clemens jersey from a recent Steiner auction. When it arrived, I noticed the tag was missing. Unaware of the thread that discusses Clemens removing many of the tags from the jerseys he pitches in, I obviously got a little spooked. I wasn't concerned about the jerseys use, however I was confused as to how I'd ever be able to resell this high priced jersey in the future with no tags. After reading the thread, I actually felt a whole lot better about it. In fact, I would imagine, provided I maintain the LOA and hologram, the fact that the tag is missing will probably add a premium to its value, given the history behind it. I can see the scenario, however, where one could be tempted to restore a similar jersey, by adding tagging to it, in order to increase its value. If an owner of such an item was looking to sell it and was unaware of the history behind Clemens' jerseys the temptation could surface. Unfortunately, sometimes it just seems easier to adjust an item to meet expectations than it is to research items and learn more about the history of a player/team and the use of jerseys (tags) or helmet facemasks.

I think it's terrible that these auction houses and dealers are getting away with this. I also think that by pointing out instances where they are engaging in this fraud can only help the hobby out. Eric, I appreciate your efforts in reviewing these descriptions with a fine tooth comb, in order to find inconsistencies. It's a sad commentary that doing so is even neccessary, when evaluating what to by and from whom.

On a positive note, kudos to Robert Edward Auctions for their auction. This is the first auction I have participated in with them and I will be back. Never have I seen such a wide array of quality items so accurately described. It really appears that they go far beyond what their competitors do, in terms of pointing out potential issues their customers might have with their items. Many of the baseball jerseys other auction houses would probably deem as game worn were not described as such by them. It seemed that unless MEARS graded it over a "5," or it came with an additional LOA from a player or team, the term "game worn" was not applied to it. Hopefully they will become the norm, rather than the exception, as more and more collectors demand honesty from those they purchase from.