ebay seller lambeauleeper and "game issued"

[Eric]

Fellow forum member mvandor mentioned in another thread that he had a "LT throwback game issue from 2005."

I asked where he got it from and he said ebay seller lambeauleeper. I have noticed that lambeauleeper often sells high profile game issued items. He currently is selling

Dan Marino 1990 "GAME ISSUED USED WORN" helmet
with this description

A GAME ISSUE or USED helmet is much harder to obtain than a GAME ISSUE or USED jersey. A Dan Marino (16+ years old) helmet is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain! This helmet was issued to Dan Marino for on-field GAME USE during the 1990 season. Since I have no documentation stating Dan Marino actually wore this helmet I am selling it as "GAME ISSUED". Exclusive features found on this Dan Marino GAME HELMET include Riddell WD-1 custom large helmet, proper mil. (thickness) decaling, single aqua/orange center stripping, NFL shield decal, DOLPHINS 25th silver Anniversary decal, clear warning decal, proper front red Riddell, 1990 facemask clips, Dan Marino's vintage custom aqua Schutt facemask, correct Riddell 4-point chinstrap, etc. VERY RARE offering from this HALL-OF-FAME Quarterback!!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86829&item=140115233762

He also is selling and has sold

Reggie White 1996 S.B. "GAME ISSUED USED WORN" helmet

Brett Favre 1996 S.B. "GAME ISSUED USED WORN" helmet

Tom Brady 2003 "GAME ISSUED USED" Jersey

Brett Favre 2002 "GAME ISSUED USED" Auto'd Jersey

I wrote the seller today and asked him

"Do you get all of your "issued" pieces from the teams? Or are they replicas made to the exact specs to the real ones that you are selling as issued?
I know people who are interested in your Favre and Marino helmet and were wondering the same thing
Eric"

He wrote:

"Through trades and purchases. I am not sure of the history of these pieces."

Then I wrote:

"So how can you call them team issued of you don't know? Did the Tomlinson throwback helmet you sold come from the Chargers?
Thanks
Eric"

He wrote:

I don't know

I then wrote:
So, you're selling these pieces as "game issued" and you have no idea if
they came from the teams, right?

He wrote:

They have the EXACT specs and dates of GAME WORN items from that player. I have seen items no where near the authenticity of these items soldon EBAY.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems like the seller might be exaggerating his claims here. "Game Issued" suggests it was made by the team for the purpose of play. From talking to the seller, it sounds more like he's taking liberties.

Many times if collectors cannot afford a game used item, the next best thing, and a more affordable option is to buy an issued item which is game ready. It's really the next step down to have something that might be from the team, and might be manufactured by someone with a shell and a bunch of decals.

Buyers should be careful when seeing this kind of terminology in listings. It doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. Sellers should accurately describe what they're selling.

I'd be interested in people's thoughts
Eric

[suave1477]

Eric its disgusting he is an adult and knows right from wrong. POINT BLANK NO EXCUSES

He is selling high premium items as items that were made for these players to be worn or used in an actual game, meanwhile it could have been my cousin Jimmy who ade it in his garage.

But because he didnt know my cousin Jimmy made it he automatically thinks it gives him the right to call it Game Issued.

How about the fact all the people who probably spent big money on those others players helmets you mentioned and they have no clue that the Helmet could of came from Toys R Us for free with purchasing a slurpee.

[mvandor]

Gentlemen, IMHO you're overreacting to this general issue, and specifically to this seller's listings.

Let me start by saying it would be nice if things in this world were as they should be. However, as we all know we live in a very flawed world, sadly twisted by greed. Game used collectors should know this better than anyone because the larger dollar values have invited off the charts fraud. This forum does a great job of documenting this.

Let me say on the general issue of use of the term "game issue" that within 6 months of becoming an NFL memorabilia collector, I had learned that the term is VERY liberally used. My naive assumption in the beginning was that it meant "team issued" and came from the locker room. Over time I learned that it almost always was used to refer to a stock item that had been customized to approximate what the team issues to the players.

I have had discussions with major reputable ebay sellers on this issue from Rick Radtke to the owner of Gridiron Authentics. If asked pointedly they will give you honest answers. I've even asked Rick to stop using the term, but in a competitive market I understand why he has not. Recently, Gridiron Authentics has been selling off a series of Tom Brady "game issue" helmets and I was told that they came from the company supplying the Patriots helmets to the team, and that all customization was done by that company identical to those they delivered to the Pats for Brady's use. Well, that's close, but not quite the same as coming from the team.

Lambeauleeper hasn't done anything the rest of the sellers on ebay haven't done. He doesn't say his items came from the team. He doesn't sell volumes. He drops 4 or 5 helmets on the market a few times a year, right now he only has one feedback you can view because the rest are too old, for example. Further, most of his helmets don't sell for huge amounts, so the profit motive is nothing like in the "game used" market.

I've followed his stuff for about a year, having bought a Tomlinson throwback game issue helmet from him that I believe has a good likelihood from my research of being authentic - or at least the best copy I've seen of the dozen or so to hit ebay in the last year. At $400, I can live with it either way.

I generally feel that the term "game issue" is too liberally used, yes, but he does not try and lie as to provenance of his items.

[suave1477]

Gentlemen, IMHO you're overreacting to this general issue, and specifically to this seller's listings.

Let me start by saying it would be nice if things in this world were as they should be. However, as we all know we live in a very flawed world, sadly twisted by greed. Game used collectors should know this better than anyone because the larger dollar values have invited off the charts fraud. This forum does a great job of documenting this.

Let me say on the general issue of use of the term "game issue" that within 6 months of becoming an NFL memorabilia collector, I had learned that the term is VERY liberally used. My naive assumption in the beginning was that it meant "team issued" and came from the locker room. Over time I learned that it almost always was used to refer to a stock item that had been customized to approximate what the team issues to the players.

I have had discussions with major reputable ebay sellers on this issue from Rick Radtke to the owner of Gridiron Authentics. If asked pointedly they will give you honest answers. I've even asked Rick to stop using the term, but in a competitive market I understand why he has not. Recently, Gridiron Authentics has been selling off a series of Tom Brady "game issue" helmets and I was told that they came from the company supplying the Patriots helmets to the team, and that all customization was done by that company identical to those they delivered to the Pats for Brady's use. Well, that's close, but not quite the same as coming from the team.

Lambeauleeper hasn't done anything the rest of the sellers on ebay haven't done. He doesn't say his items came from the team. He doesn't sell volumes. He drops 4 or 5 helmets on the market a few times a year, right now he only has one feedback you can view because the rest are too old, for example. Further, most of his helmets don't sell for huge amounts, so the profit motive is nothing like in the "game used" market.

I've followed his stuff for about a year, having bought a Tomlinson throwback game issue helmet from him that I believe has a good likelihood from my research of being authentic - or at least the best copy I've seen of the dozen or so to hit ebay in the last year. At $400, I can live with it either way.

I generally feel that the term "game issue" is too liberally used, yes, but he does not try and lie as to provenance of his items.


Im sorry to say this but I disagree with almost everything you said here.

Overreacting I don't see that possible as he is still trying to sell a retail item as Game Issued. You can hide behind saying "well Game Issued can mean many things to different people"
But in plain enlish Game Issued means exactly what it means GAME ISSUED the item was made specifically for GAME PLAY
If the item was made to the exact specifications of a player but not made for the team / player to use for a Game, then it is called (Pro Cut for Jerseys or Pro Made for other items)
Now your saying well he only drops a few of these a year into the hobby, hellooooooooooo that is a big deal because that means these so called items that he claims to not know where they come from will end up in the hobby one day as Game Used.
You say well its $400 and worth it since it looks pretty good.
Well to the average collector / buyer likes to actually spend $400 for the item he is told hes buying. Not turning around insinuating its the real thing and your actually just buying a good look-a-like.
Also you make spending $400 as is an easy loss to take well not many people just have $400 to throw down the drain and say "oh well its just $400"

I dont mind you taking a defense on his behalf but it bothers me that you tried to make good points out of what the flaws are in this hobby and the reason why a forum like this is needed.

Eric I will tip my hat off to you again for creating such a forum so we can try to elliminate that bad out of it as much as we can. Whether it be a small percentage or a lot but at least we can try to curb some of it.

[beantown]

I'll speak for the Brady items this individual has sold....First, the helmets are WRONG because of the small size.....Brady wears a larger size. Second, if you're going to sell a game issued 2003 Brady jersey, make sure its at least a game issued jersey. The jersey lambeauleeper sold recently on Ebay (see attached pictures) was a store bought, not even sure if it was a "real" authentic jersey, which had a neck tag and tail tag added.....100% bogus jersey :mad: :mad:

[whatupyos]

I don't know this seller who is selling these items, but in general, if you're selling something, especially sports memorabillia wise, I think you have a responsibility to know where your items come from and if they are game used, game issued, whatever. You should make every attempt to make this known in your description when selling an item!!!!!

Aaron

[G1X]

mvandor,

Thanks for clarifying the use of the term "game issued" as that is not a term I have run across as a football jersey collector and seller (I don't collect helmets). In my opinion, the term is confusing and misleading, especially since they are describing an item that was not issued by the team for possible game use. Shouldn't the sellers be using the term "replica" or "authentic replica"? You can't get much clearer than that, and that's precisely what it is - a REPLICA!!!

But I guess this is no different than folks listing a jersey on ebay and in the header calling it "game worn", then backpedaling in the description with innuendo, disclaimers, and other bits of information and misinfomation that further clouds the issue. Again, why not call it what it is - a REPLICA!!!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

[EndzoneSports]

Eric:

Please contact me privately via e-mail at EndzoneSports@msn.com. I've lost your e-mail address and may have an offer for you that you can't refuse.

Best regards,

[mvandor]

Suave, have you reviewed his currently for sale and sold items? You seem to be rather quick to call him a crook and judge all his items "retail".

In the few weeks I've been hanging around here I've photo checked alot of supposedly game used jerseys and easily was able to disqualify a ton of them by a simple photo check. However, I've been unable to disqualify this ebay seller's helmets so easily, for example his Reggie White matches every available photo on gettyone.com for the SB in question, as does the Favre. The Marino I discount as I've spoken to individuals at HelmetHut (if I recall correctly) who know the equipment manager for the Dolphins during the Marino years and has opined that virtually none of Dan's helmets got out of the team's control. Nevertheless, from the exterior, it looks very good (I do note he doesn't show pics of helmet interiors which might be giveaways as to authenticity if shown, don't know).

It seems to me if someone is gonna be a memorabilia crook, they'd go for the big money, wack on the helmets, and auction em as game used - AND push some volume. It seems odd someone would auction so few helmets, refer to them only as "game issue" and not lie as to proof of provenance if it was an ongoing scam.

Do I know his helmets are legit from teams? Nope. But he doesn't represent them as such, only that they match the game helmets as far as specs, and that he commits the sadly common sin of using the "game issue" term.

My principal focus in collecting over the last year has been helmets, and I can nearly always spot flaws in supposed "game issues", yet this guy's stuff I can't. So either he's got some legit helmets or he's better at his effort than volume helmet copiers like RealStuff.

Can't comment on his jersey(s), not my area of expertise.

I guess my point is it's easy to take cynicism to an extreme given the degree of fraud in the hobby. However, for the most part this guy's use of the term "game issue" is no worse than anyone else selling these types of helmets on ebay.

[mvandor]

BTW, beantown, you refer to a Brady helmet he sold, but I see no such item either in his feedback or completed listings. Where are you getting that one from?

[reed1216]

Ignorance is not and should not be a defense. Citing the fact that this is a "competitive market" is even worse. Taking it a step further would be to justify selling retail jerseys that were worn in a pickup game by the seller as game used. I think we would all be in agreement that that would be fraudulent, but if the "competitive market" arguement validates the misuse of the term "game issued," why not take that next step??

The bottom line is that people that sell their items have an obligation to be truthful in disclosing the history behind them. If they really are unaware of the history of their item, they should state that up front. At least the seller that Eric questioned responded to his inquiries. While the responses were lame, many sellers simply ignore such requests for information in the hope that some unsuspecting buyer will take the bait. It sucks, there's no excuse for that and hopefully, by discussing these items and those that sell them, slowly these incidents will occur less frequently.

[kneerat]

Hey guys,
I am not calling this person a crook, but how can he not know the history of something that may be the most important helmet of Brett Favre's career?

If he obtained this via purchase or trade, it would make sense that he would ask the person how it was originally obtained.

Also, I have seen many helmets that have been used in a game. They almost always show hit marks, scratching, field paint, something... If there is absolutely no wear at all, then I don't know if you can even raise the possibility that it might be game-worn. Game-issued would be possible, but not game worn.
If that Favre helmet was actually a backup to his original used in Super Bowl XXXI, I would think that it is still worth 6-8k...

One last note: I have been tracking this user id for some time now... He has some amazing helmets that he described as game-issued or maybe game-used. I would assume that he gets most of his stuff from the same source. This guy has been listing helmets like this for at least a year or two. You would think at some point he would find out where they are all coming from.

[beantown]

BTW, beantown, you refer to a Brady helmet he sold, but I see no such item either in his feedback or completed listings. Where are you getting that one from?

lambeauleeper has had them in the past....I just checked lambeauleepers feedback and I notice this....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140090693589

$5,000.00 for a team issued jersey :confused: Moreover, this IS NOT a team issued jersey but a retail authentic...does not have the correct cut to be team issued....

[hblakewolf]

Chris-
Not to get off of the subject, however, why has SCD turned from such an informative publication in the past, now to a 55 page vehicle for auction houses to self-promote and advertise while you and the staff stay away from reporting any type of controversial activities in the hobby?

Personally, when my subscription runs out, I'll need to take a good hard look at renewing. If your current format and editiorial support of your advertisers continues, I'll be hard pressed to renew.

I suggest you start a thread and possibly ask for input on ways to improve your publication.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[mvandor]

lambeauleeper has had them in the past....I just checked lambeauleepers feedback and I notice this....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140090693589

$5,000.00 for a team issued jersey :confused: Moreover, this IS NOT a team issued jersey but a retail authentic...does not have the correct cut to be team issued....
Again, I can't comment on the jerseys, you guys are far more knowledgeable than I on those.

My biggest beef with him on the helmets is that they are in the "game used" category on ebay and even he admits he has no evidence that they were used so he's selling them as "game Issued".

Apparently several of us have monitored his items for some time, we're just drawing different conclusions as to the helmets and/or his sales techniques.

As I've said, if he's making these up he's doing a near perfect job, better than anyone else including companies that create copies in volume as a business. I can't find a single flaw in any photomatch effort and I challenge you guys to find one (helmets only).

I simply don't feel he's misrepresenting the helmets in his descriptions (although the title and category are misleading) or in his responses to questions. Obviously if he had any provenance, heck even a good story or a pay-per-LOA Lampson cert, he'd get alot more for these helmets. ALOT MORE. That alone leads me to believe he's not running an intentional scam, if he is, he's REAL small time in his approach to be sure.

I don't disagree that the term "game issue" as used to refer to helmets SHOULD be defined as "team issue", however, that's just not the way the industry has operated or is operating. Any helmet collector has to know that and has to ask the right questions and due the usual due diligence then bid accordingly. Or not.

With all the big money game used fraud going around this case isn't worth the time already devoted to it in this thread.

[beantown]

While we're on the subject of "team issued", "game issued", etc., with Ebay seller lambeauleeper, this Ebay seller. flipsyr doing the same thing with more vintage helmets....

http://cgi.ebay.com/1960s-NEW-ORLEANS-SAINTS-SUSPENSION-HELMET-COLLECTION_W0QQitemZ170108437546QQihZ007QQcategory Z86828QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I have been informed by two helmet experts, that ALL these helmets this individual is selling/sold are not what they claim to be...prospective buyers beware of this sellers claims!

[mvandor]

While we're on the subject of "team issued", "game issued", etc., with Ebay seller lambeauleeper, this Ebay seller. flipsyrs doing the same thing with more vintage helmets....

http://cgi.ebay.com/1960s-NEW-ORLEANS-SAINTS-SUSPENSION-HELMET-COLLECTION_W0QQitemZ170108437546QQihZ007QQcategory Z86828QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I have been informed by two helmet experts, that ALL these helmets this individual is selling/sold are not what they claim to be...prospective buyers beware of this sellers claims!
Well, my first impression of these is that they look awfully new for 40 year old helmets, but who knows, maybe the guy came across an old box of unused 1960's shells.

However, the lack of any facemasks, the identical shells, and the fresh exteriors, leads me to believe these were painted and decals applied by this guy. Perhaps he couldn't score a box of 1960's facemasks. :)

[kneerat]

Hi Howard,
Thanks for the questions... If you would like to start another thread about SCD, feel free.

The reason why we write so much about the various auction houses and the items they sell is because auctions have been such a huge part of the hobby in the past few years.
If you have any articles in particular that you would like to see in our magazine, please shoot me an email.
Eric Stangel actually wrote a column for a future issue, which we are very excited about.
Also, I have been writing about some of the more controversial issues of the hobby in my blog. You should check it out sometime.
We are in the process of adding audio and video interviews to our website, so hopefully we will be providing some things that have been missing in the past.
Also, I saw a show special for a $25 subscription to SCD. That is less than 50 cents per issue. It's true that our publication is not the same 300-page monster as it was before eBay existed, but what magazine is? Hopefully you will renew...
Regards,
chris

[Eric]

I would ask that we stick to the subject of this thread. Howard, if you have something to post about SCD, I would suggest starting another thread.
On a separate note, Chris, it's nice to have you chime in here. I know you're a Packers guy and I too have noticed lambeauleeper has had a lot of high-profile Packers issued pieces.
I have also read your blog, including the entry about your concern over team issued jerseys showing up elsewhere as game used. Keep up the good work.
Thanks,
Eric

[rose14]

Chris, I for one would like to see a report in SCD that goes into detail all of the authenticating problems with Lou Lampson and why these auction houses still use them. I know it's a double edge sword for SCD, but your publication should not turn a blind eye on what has been happening just because these auction houses buy advertising from you.

I also think SCD should do an in depth piece on the way auction houses conduct business with consigning their own items, having access to raise bidders proxy bids and most important changing or altering items in their auction without disclosing the facts of the alterations.

Thanks
Todd

[hblakewolf]

Chris, I for one would like to see a report in SCD that goes into detail all of the authenticating problems with Lou Lampson and why these auction houses still use them. I know it's a double edge sword for SCD, but your publication should not turn a blind eye on what has been happening just because these auction houses buy advertising from you.

I also think SCD should do an in depth piece on the way auction houses conduct business with consigning their own items, having access to raise bidders proxy bids and most important changing or altering items in their auction without disclosing the facts of the alterations.

Thanks
Todd

Todd-
Fantastic story line ideas. Personally, I think you stand a better chance of seeing the Easter Bunny in your backyard as opposed to a story on these specific troubling issues. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that SCD, with their dwindling page count and almost non-existent classified section, would ever bite the hand that feeds them (auction house advertising and revenue generated from traditional ads and catalog inserts), especially at this time. The lack of any type of reporting of controversial issues now and in the past is a clear sign that SCD does not want to jeopardize their position with their current or future auction house advertisers.

Chris, can you comment on the above and also on the possibility of following on these ideas and writing an in-depth piece on each?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[mvandor]

Todd-
Fantastic story line ideas. Personally, I think you stand a better chance of seeing the Easter Bunny in your backyard as opposed to a story on these specific troubling issues. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that SCD, with their dwindling page count and almost non-existent classified section, would ever bite the hand that feeds them (auction house advertising and revenue generated from traditional ads and catalog inserts), especially at this time. The lack of any type of reporting of controversial issues now and in the past is a clear sign that SCD does not want to jeopardize their position with their current or future auction house advertisers.

Chris, can you comment on the above and also on the possibility of following on these ideas and writing an in-depth piece on each?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net (hblakewolf@patmedia.net)
Could you guys start your own thread as Eric asked and quit hijacking this one?

[Eric]

Todd-
Fantastic story line ideas. Personally, I think you stand a better chance of seeing the Easter Bunny in your backyard as opposed to a story on these specific troubling issues. I'd find it extremely hard to believe that SCD, with their dwindling page count and almost non-existent classified section, would ever bite the hand that feeds them (auction house advertising and revenue generated from traditional ads and catalog inserts), especially at this time. The lack of any type of reporting of controversial issues now and in the past is a clear sign that SCD does not want to jeopardize their position with their current or future auction house advertisers.

Chris, can you comment on the above and also on the possibility of following on these ideas and writing an in-depth piece on each?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net (hblakewolf@patmedia.net)

Howard-
Perhaps you did not see it, but I already asked earlier in the thread if you could keep to the subject. If you would like to start a different thread, that is your choice, but let's keep one topic per thread.
Thanks
Eric

[ChrisCavalier]

Howard-
Perhaps you did not see it, but I already asked earlier in the thread if you could keep to the subject. If you would like to start a different thread, that is your choice, but let's keep one topic per thread.
Thanks
Eric
Let me just add that rule #12 of the forum states "No Topic Changing." This is intended to prevent the possibility of a thread getting derailed at the expense of the original poster. As stated, please feel free to start another thread if you feel there is a separate topic worth discussing.

In addition, I'd also like to welcome Chris Nerat to the forum. I have read some of his blogs and I would like to think he is attempting to address some relevant issues in the hobby. I'm also happy to see he is open to suggestions. I just ask that we keep in mind he is one person at the magazine and that the implementation of any suggestions will likely require approvals beyond just him. With that said, thanks for your willingness to listen and to potentially provide feedback to SCD.

Sincerely,
Chris Cavalier

[mvandor]

This ebay seller has more items up for auction, this time jerseys I'm sure people here are pretty qualified to evaluate.

Interested in opinions.

[aeneas01]

lambeauleeper is a crook.

no honest mistakes, no accidental overexaggetions, no unintentional misrepresentations here. this guy selects easily replicated items (vsr4 helmets for example) and lists them, represents them, as items once belonging to the player. marino, favre, vick, brees and elway helmets seem to be his favorite imitations and have sold for as much as $1,200.

btw, nice forum - one of your members told me about this community and i'm glad i found it!

[mvandor]

lambeauleeper is a crook.

no honest mistakes, no accidental overexaggetions, no unintentional misrepresentations here. this guy selects easily replicated items (vsr4 helmets for example) and lists them, represents them, as items once belonging to the player. marino, favre, vick, brees and elway helmets seem to be his favorite imitations and have sold for as much as $1,200.

btw, nice forum - one of your members told me about this community and i'm glad i found it!
I challenged people here to review his helmets and identify a flaw, no one did, but several are jumping up to call the guy a 'crook'.

As I indicated, I purchased an LT "game issue" throwback helmet from him a year ago after exhaustive photo comparisons. After receipt I again dug into photo comparisons. Could not find one flaw. Further, I've monitored a slew of LT "game issued" or copied helmets on ebay in that year and found easily identifiable flaws on EVERY one.

Does that prove it's legit? Nope. But if it's a copy, it's perfect in every way I've been able to examine and in ways all others have failed to replicate.

BTW, virtually none of his last batch of helmets reached reserve and sold, nor are any of his jerseys. You don't usually reserve fraudulent items or at least ones you KNOW are fraudulent. You also don't usually do such low volume.

Now, if anyone versed on jerseys would care to poke holes in his current listings, I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZlambeauleeperQQhtZ-1

[Eric]

It is deceptive to use the term "game issued" and then when asked about it say he has no idea about the history of the helmet.

That is a fraudulent description. You should mention something is issued or used when you know it to be so. Otherwise you are making claims you don't know to be true, which leads the buyer into thinking it's something that it is not.

Any chance you can post photos, front, back and inside of your LT helmet? I'm sure it's a perfect reproduction. I'd love to see it.

Eric

[gwh11]

This seller is currently offering a "VERY RARE Brett Favre 2002 "GAME ISSUED USED" jersey". In the description he states "All features are proper and consistant to Brett Favre Game Jerseys from the 2002 season". This is incorrect. Not only is the jersey not custom hemmed as he wore them for all of that season, it is the wrong size. If the seller is indeed familiar with other Favre jerseys from 2002, he certainly would've noticed that Favre wears a size 52.
Guy

[aeneas01]

You don't usually reserve fraudulent items or at least ones you KNOW are fraudulent. You also don't usually do such low volume.

you're kidding, right?

frankly, i find your defense of this "seller" puzzling at best and suspicious at worse. any single ebay source who claims to own and have for sale multiple "game issued" favre helmets, vick helmets, tomlinson helmets, elway helmets, marino helmets and brees helmets (to name a few) yet has no documentation nor can provide any sort of procurement history is, in my book, a crook.

here's something you might want to try - pick up the phone and give bob wick a call; he's the bolts' equipment manager and he's also a big memorabilia collector (not only are nfl equipment managers the easiest guys in an nfl organization to reach, but they are also about the nicest guys you would ever want to chat with and are always very generous with their time). anyway, give bob a call and tell him you came across a "game issued" tomlinson helmet on ebay; that you found a guy on ebay that not only has "game issued" tomlinson helmets for sale, but also has multiple copies of many present and future hall of famer "game issued" helmets as well. ask him if he thinks they are authentic.

here's a "game issued" tomlinson helmet that some poor soul purchased from lambeauleeper in march of 2006 for about $500 inclusive of s&h...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/490fake2.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/490fake3.jpg

[Eric]

I don't know what the items were, but i can see that james brown of historic auctions bought two items from this seller in september of '06

aeneas- how did you get pics of that LT helmet? I have been trying to track those down.

eric

[aeneas01]

oops, i accidentally hit the "post" button before i was done and, alas, no edit feature on this board...

anyway, to continue:

another photo of lambeauleeper's "game issued" tomlinson helmet:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/490fake1.jpg

note:

a) it's a schutt pro-air, not a schutt air-advantage
b) the facemask
c) the chargers' decal on the back

tomlinson switched from the schutt pro-air to the more modern schutt air-advantage in 2005 so, consequently, lambeauleeper's helmet would have to have been from the 2004 season or earlier which is when tomlinson used a pro-air.

from 2001 (when tomlinson joined the bolts) through 2004 the chargers played only three games in which they wore white helmets - one game in 2002 (vs jets), one game in 2003 (vs ravens) and one game in 2004 (vs jags). so, assuming tomlinson was "issued" a backup for each of these games (which is ridiculous), there would be exactly 6 white tomlinson pro-air helmets in existence - 3 game worn and 3 "game issued". and lambeauleeper has/had at least two, hmmm....

here are a couple of 2005 photos of tomlinson and his schutt air-advantage helmet (notice the "slot" behind the ear hole).

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2005_1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2005_3.jpg

and here are a couple of '06 photos with tomlinson and his schutt air-advantage - so, clearly, after the 2004 season tomlinson wasn't sporting the style of helmet lambeauleeper is peddling as "game issued".

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2006_3.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2006_1.jpg

so the only games in which tomlinson wore a white scutt pro-air: 2002 vs jets, 2003 vs ravens and 2004 vs jags. could lambeauleeper's gem actually be from one of these seasons? one of these three games? let's see....

here are a couple of photos of tomlinson wearing the white lid in 2002 vs the jets. so where's the rear charger decal that lamby shows on his helmet? and what about that facemask? guess 2002 is out...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2002_1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2002_2.jpg

so let's look at the one game tomlinson wore a white helmet in 2003 (vs the ravens). hmmm.... is that a chargers decal i see above the facemask? and then there's that facemask thing again. looks like 2003 is out as well as far as match goes...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2003_2.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2003_3.jpg

so that leaves 2004, our last hope for the exact match one of the forum members was talking about. here are a couple of shots of tomlinson running the ball against the jags - the last time he wore a white schutt pro-air. doh! there's that mask thingy again! and, i'll try to post it later, there's no chargers decal on the back of the helmet - what a surprise!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2004_7.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2004_6.jpg

as i mentioned before, lamby is a crook. he purchases readily available decals and slaps them on readily available shells; he invests $100-$200 clams and fetches $500 or more because he intentionally misrepresents his stuff. does he put together a nice lid? are they pretty to look at? you bet. but they are fakes. andsadly, lamby is not alone...

[Dolphin13]

I've seen some 2004 photos that look pretty close to lambeau's helmet pictured. The mask is the only issue that I see. The problem I see with the memorabilia issues on auctions especially Ebay is that people are looking for a STEAL. They wont pay $3-$5,000.00 for a game worn helmet with a team letter. So they go to Ebay and want to pay next to nothing for an item then bitch. If you purchase a Brady jersey for $700.00 on Ebay, don't expect it to be a $5,000.00 game jersey. I've seen Gridiron Brady helmets and Favre VSR helmets which are the wrong size and model sell for over $1,000.00. Lambeau at least has the correct size and models WD-1, WD-2, SCHUTT, etc. I don't see the big deal if they are the proper size, model and decaling calling them game issued. Team or games used.....that's different.

[Dolphin13]

I looked at recent auctions from Grey Flannel and the Favre jersey LAMBEAU listed is coorct in size and cut.

[Dolphin13]

I've seen Lambeau's items and auctions. He doesn't just sell VSR-4 helmets. Ive seen WD-1, WD-2, SCHUTT and VSR-1. He also never mentioned in any auction except for a recent game worn Phillip Rivers jersey that they were owned by the player. You should get your facts straight before you crucify someone.

[Dolphin13]

Again, I can't comment on the jerseys, you guys are far more knowledgeable than I on those.

My biggest beef with him on the helmets is that they are in the "game used" category on ebay and even he admits he has no evidence that they were used so he's selling them as "game Issued".

Apparently several of us have monitored his items for some time, we're just drawing different conclusions as to the helmets and/or his sales techniques.

As I've said, if he's making these up he's doing a near perfect job, better than anyone else including companies that create copies in volume as a business. I can't find a single flaw in any photomatch effort and I challenge you guys to find one (helmets only).

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: The Pro Bowl jersey is obviously GAME ISSUED. I've seen the same one sold through Grey Flannel. Maybe Lambeau is using the Game Used category to get lookers because I noticed in his description he shys away and states he is selling the items as game issued. I've been watching him and he only sticks with the game used when he has proof through a letter of authenticity.

I simply don't feel he's misrepresenting the helmets in his descriptions (although the title and category are misleading) or in his responses to questions. Obviously if he had any provenance, heck even a good story or a pay-per-LOA Lampson cert, he'd get alot more for these helmets. ALOT MORE. That alone leads me to believe he's not running an intentional scam, if he is, he's REAL small time in his approach to be sure.

I don't disagree that the term "game issue" as used to refer to helmets SHOULD be defined as "team issue", however, that's just not the way the industry has operated or is operating. Any helmet collector has to know that and has to ask the right questions and due the usual due diligence then bid accordingly. Or not.

With all the big money game used fraud going around this case isn't worth the time already devoted to it in this thread.
Sounds good.

[Dolphin13]

I'll speak for the Brady items this individual has sold....First, the helmets are WRONG because of the small size.....Brady wears a larger size. Second, if you're going to sell a game issued 2003 Brady jersey, make sure its at least a game issued jersey. The jersey lambeauleeper sold recently on Ebay (see attached pictures) was a store bought, not even sure if it was a "real" authentic jersey, which had a neck tag and tail tag added.....100% bogus jersey :mad: :mad:

:eek: :eek: I've seen Lambeaus items for the last 2+ years. The Brady jersyes and helmets are the correct size. Brady wears a size 48 jersey and XL helmet. As far as the jersey being store bought? I am not sure. It has proper tagging and size.:eek:

[Dolphin13]

lambeauleeper has had them in the past....I just checked lambeauleepers feedback and I notice this....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140090693589

$5,000.00 for a team issued jersey :confused: Moreover, this IS NOT a team issued jersey but a retail authentic...does not have the correct cut to be team issued....

:D :D :D Yes it is. I 've seen the EXACT jersey on GREY FLANNELS auction about 2 years ago. IT IS TEAM ISSUED!

[Eric]

Dolphin13-
Are you lambeauleeper?

[b.heagy]

I'm no expert in Jerseys. I found these photo's of Favre from 02. Note the reebok symbol on the shoulders, closer to the stripes than on the one in the auction. Seems to be in the same place on all of the photo's from home and away games that I researched from 02. added one with Favre in celebration with jersey untucked. You guys decide.

[b.heagy]

Here's the pic for comparison from the listing.

[Dolphin13]

Dolphin13-
Are you lambeauleeper?


:D :D No. Just checked out this site today. I have a lot of game worn and issued pieces. I just doon't think it is fair to pay for one thing and expect another!

[Dolphin13]

:cool:
I'm no expert in Jerseys. I found these photo's of Favre from 02. Note the reebok symbol on the shoulders, closer to the stripes than on the one in the auction. Seems to be in the same place on all of the photo's from home and away games that I researched from 02. added one with Favre in celebration with jersey untucked. You guys decide.


:cool: :cool: Here is a 2002 Brett Favre Game Worn jersey from American memorabilia:http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=19876

[Eric]

:D :D No. Just checked out this site today. I have a lot of game worn and issued pieces. I just doon't think it is fair to pay for one thing and expect another!

I don't think it's fair to pay for one thing and receive another.

The reason I ask if you're lambeauleeper is because he is from wisconsin and sells lots of dan marino items and you are registered from wisconsin and your name pays homage to dan marino.

But i maybe that's a coincidence.

Enjoy the forum. Please familiarize yourself with the rules, including registering with your valid first and last name.
Eric

[Dolphin13]

[quote=Dolphin13;40543]:cool:


:cool: :cool: Here is a 2002 Brett Favre Game Worn jersey from American memorabilia:

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=19876

[Eric]

I don't understand your point with the AMI Favre. That's a shirt with no wear and a letter from Lou Lampson. I think to help your argument that what you, I mean lambeauleeper sells is valid, you might want to compare it to jerseys with a Favre authentic hologram.

Can someone find one of those?

Eric

[Eric]

Here is a 2002 Favre jersey size 52 from my collection which is sourced from someone in the St. Louis Rams front office. A little different than the AMI you reference above.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/All%20other%20football/HPIM1605.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/All%20other%20football/HPIM1606.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/All%20other%20football/HPIM1607.jpg

Eric

[gwh11]

Regarding the correct size, specs, etc. for a jersey of a particular player, it's important not to rely on just one auction house listing. Auction houses make mistakes obviously, so sometimes you really have to look at several different pieces from a player. In the case of Favre, Grey Flannel sold a 2002 Favre in an '05 auction which was a size 52. That jersey came with a letter from Favre stating it was game used. Also consider:

2000 Favre jersey sold by Grey Flannel, size 52
2003 Favre throwback jersey sold by Lelands, size 52
2003 Favre home jersey sold by Lelands, size 52
2004 Favre home jersey sold by American Memorabilia, size 52
2001 Favre away jersey sold by Lelands, size 52
2001 Favre away jersey sold by Authentic Gamers, size 52

All of the above came with a Favre hologram + a letter from him stating they were game used.

Now I'm not advocating that anyone rely only on provenance when purchasing gamers, but if you're just going to compare something only based on auction house offerings, do as broad of a search as possible.
Guy

[Eric]

:D :D No. Just checked out this site today. I have a lot of game worn and issued pieces. I just doon't think it is fair to pay for one thing and expect another!

So you say you're not lambeauleeper BUT he's from wisconsin and so are you, he sells a lot of marino items and your name is Dolphin13, AND the american memorabilia link which you posted here three times just happens to be included in the brand new listing for the size 50 2002 Favre "game issued used" jersey

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140120466699&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us

Might you be stretching the truth?

[mvandor]

Re: the LT helmet, I believe those photos are of mine, the one I purchased from lambeau in 2006.

First, I'm unaware of any second LT helmet offered by lambeau, and can see no such reference to a second in reviewing his feedback history. Perhaps aeneas01 who obviously has good knowledge on LT and his helmet history could clarify this comment?

Secondly, my photo comparisons indicated the helmet - if genuine - was likely a 2004 model rather than the 2005 lambeau advertised it as. aeneas01, you seem to feel that's the closest reference as well, but dismiss it because of the facemask and rear decal.

Perhaps I lack an eye for detail, but how is the facemask different? It certainly appears the same to me. Regarding the rear bumper decal, I can find no photos from the 2004 Chargers-Jags game on either Corbis or Gettyone that show LT's rear bumper in that game, however, the below pic of Ben Leber from that game does show the exact same rear bumper decal on his helmet. Do you have some photographic evidence that LT's helmet was different and lacked that decal?

BTW, I'm curious as to how you would know what I paid for the helmet as you can't view that old a listing on ebay, and where you got those pics which are no longer on ebay. You'd have had to have been developing a database of such items and have saved this info in 2006. Perhaps you can shed some light on how and why you have this info?

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/51816147.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CEAD77D40D64EB720C

BTW, I actually attempted to email the Chargers Equipment Manager last year to see if he'd be willing to look at the helmet and give an opinion, and I never received a reply. Perhaps a phone call might have produced better results, I don't know. Or perhaps aeneas, you have connections with Wick and can help arrange an inspection?

Perhaps I've been defensive because I want to believe the helmet is in fact legit. That would be natural. However, I really would prefer to know the truth, I either overpaid for a great copy by a few hundred, or got a steal on a legit one. I can live with either result.

[Eric]

Here are pics of my 2003 Tomlinson Throwback helmet (with mouthpiece) from NFL Auctions

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/Ladainian%20Tomlinson/HPIM0092.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/Ladainian%20Tomlinson/HPIM0093.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/Ladainian%20Tomlinson/HPIM0094.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/Ladainian%20Tomlinson/HPIM0095.jpg

Eric

[mvandor]

Eric, very interesting, must have cost you body parts as that appears to be an indisputable 2003 game used LT from NFL Auctions. We've already discussed their inflated pricing.

As far as I can tell this differs from mine (the one under so much scrutiny) in several ways. 1. front bumper decal (not used on Chargers helmets in 2004 from my research, at least not on LT's throwback helmet in the Jags game) 2. the face shield on mine goes all the way around which is consistent with pics I've reviewed for 2004 forward for LT 3. blue Riddell labeled chin strap (mine was sold without one I believe, either lambeau gave me an otherwise identical one or I purchased one for it, I don't recall).

Otherwise yours looks identical to mine as best I can tell.

[aeneas01]

Here are pics of my 2003 Tomlinson Throwback helmet (with mouthpiece) from NFL Auctions.

nice helmet - riddell chinstraps with the letters screened in any color other than stock red are very hard to obtain and very difficult for forgers to competently replicate (even though i have seen clumsy attempts in the past). for a forger to complete a fake complete with authentic chinstrap with non-red lettering, he would have to buy the custom straps from riddell (but you have to order at least 100 or so for custom jobs) or be lucky enough to have one from another helmet. that's why people like lambeauleeper simply just exclude them.

what i have always found goofy is when equipment managers put the team decal on the rear base of the helmet for sake of uniformity as can be seen on your helmet eric. this process started for good reason - the idea was to cover the clashing red letters of the riddell logo that appears on the front bumper and the rear neck pad lip. but schutt helmets never had a rear neck pad lip with garish lettering. nonetheless, equipment managers continue to put the same rear team decals (shaped to cover riddell neck pad lips) on shutt helmets - which, imo, seem to float on the back of the helmet for no apparent reason!

i almost exlcusively stay away from modern "game-used" football helmets - they are, for the most part, just too easy to replicate given the readily available decals for sale. however, many equipment managers do very small things to their helmets that every forger i have seen misses. these small things are hard to notice and hard to pick up on in photos. for example, there is something very unique about favre's otherwise very common looking game-used helmet that lambeauleeper missed completely - that, among other reasons, is why i knew he was a crook.

while many of the decals available on ebay are very close to what teams use, they are nothing more than just good copies and under close scrutiny don't hold up - simply put, these decals are not what the teams use. the current (gold) rams horns, for example, are probably the toughest decals to replicate - there has never been a set of current "authentic" rams decals available on ebay despite the many claims. as with the case of the rams horns, it can be hard to tell the difference between originals and fakes unless you have them side by side - and then the difference can be very stark.

a good example of the slight difference between authentic decals used by a team and a copy available on ebay can be seen when comparing eric's helmet with lambeauleeper's fake - look how much wider the the lightning bolts are on the fake which can best be seen by looking at the back of the helmet. if one were to drop $15 for a pair of bolt decals on ebay, they would find that they are identical to lambeauleeper's.

todd hewitt, equipment manager of the rams, also does several unique things to to his helmets that are never picked up by forgers and, as such, it is really easy to spot fake rams' helmets. as much as i would like to publicly state what these differences are, and what lambeauleeper missed on the favre helmet, i won't because it will just give these frauds something else to shoot for.


Perhaps I lack an eye for detail, but how is the facemask different?

the facemask on eric's helmet is correct and is what tomlinson wore in the three games the bolts played with white helmts from 2002-2004. in 2005 when tomlinson switched to a different helmet he also switched to a different facemask, the kind which can be seen in the photos of lambeauleeper's fake. my guess is that lambeauleeper was using a 2005 helmet as his template given the facemask style and rear decal.

here's a 2004 shot of tomlinson and eric's helemt - notice the section of the facemask in the red circle; identical. this is the facemask tomlinson wore on his white helmet prior to his helmet change in 2005.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/mask4.png

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/mask1.png

now here's a 2005 shot of tomlinson with his new helmet and facemask (photo reversed for easy comparison) and lambeauleeper's fake. notice the area inside the red circle; identical.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/mask3.png
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/mask2.png


BTW, I'm curious as to how you would know what I paid for the helmet as you can't view that old a listing on ebay, and where you got those pics which are no longer on ebay. You'd have had to have been developing a database of such items and have saved this info in 2006. Perhaps you can shed some light on how and why you have this info?

when i finally got around to actually collecting helmets 3-4 years ago (having been an enthusiast for decades) i thought it would also be interesting to at the same time create a photo-database of noteworthy helmets sold at auction including their selling prices. to date i have well over 10,000 photos in my database including many sold by lambeauleeper.

not only has this database proven to be a very valuable reference tool, but it never ceases to amaze me how often the helmets i've included re-surface for sale time and again and often with "different" stories of how they were obtained. when i first came across lambeauleeper, i logged his helmets as well and their selling prices - but so many identical ones would be relisted by lambeaukeeper that i stopped logging every version of each of his helmets. and the same goes for other helmets as well - i have many helmets in my database that have resurfaced at least 5 different times in the last 3 years - but rather than keep logging a new photo of the same helmet every time it resurfaces, i simply update the selling price of the photo i have on file. in the past i've also subscribed to several great online photo services (they can be expensive) which has allowed me to create an excellent "reference" photo gallery consisting of over 20,000 photos.

it's amazing what you find when you have such an enormous reference tool, especially of past auctions. helmets resurface all of the time where the seller will put a different facemask on it and create a different history or will switch out paddings, add decals, etc. and try to claim they are something they are not.

one character, vintagekusports (ebay), picked up a beautiful clearshell marietta helmet (delaware blue hens) from a delaware booster - the booster told how he had obtained it from the team and also inlcuded other delaware trinkets in the auction including pennants, large round blue hen pins, a little stuffed mascot, etc.

well, once the ebay history lookup expired, vintagekusports promptly slapped a facemask on it and listed it as a rare game-used michigan helmet that he obtained from a reliable source. imagine his surprise when i called him on it and sent him photos from my database showing it when it was originally listed with all of the other delaware trinkets. he responded by ending his auction and relisting it with protected bidder ids so i caouldn't alert buyers - what a piece of work.

btw, mvandor - i'm sorry if you were the person that purchased lambeauleeper's fake. you will have a tough time with your conscience should the time come when you want to move it given that you could easily list it as a "game-issued" helmet. i've most people that get taken pass along the same salespitch that got them and try to move on... tough call.

[mvandor]

Thank you aeneas, now that you have pointed out the facemask and lightning bolt differences, I see them. In fact, I have a signed Antonio Gates 2006 helmet that came from RealStuff (one of the main helmet copier businesses, although I often can see issues with their helmets) and now that I compare the lightning bolts, they are the same on the Gates copy and the LT helmet I have, and both are wider than Eric's. Or the photos. It would appear I have an otherwise outstanding knockoff of a 2004 game issue helmet, one I overpaid for.

What intrigues me is the incredibly low volume lambeauleeper does, at least under that ID. In the last 12 months, he's logged but EIGHT seller's feedbacks. As of late, hHe's been reserving items resulting in "no sales". No "crook" can operate on that low of an income or profit margin. Ain't the way criminals work. Seems more probable to me he simply lacks your knowledge and picks these things up at shows, then moves items as he picks up new ones.

BTW, I would be interested in any experience you have with Gridiron Authentics (gridironlegends on ebay). I've purchased many items from them over the years, and have discussed a number of things with the owner, including his tighter definition of "game issue". He's in New England and always seems to have great "game issue" items usually from the Pats. He has told me he gets these from either the teams or "their suppliers" and that neither he nor his staff "doctor" any helmets, apply no decals, etc. I have viewed them as perhaps the most honorable ebay sellers, and that includes comparing to guy's like Rick Radtke that use the now common "game issue" term on known copies.

[Eric]

Here's how the 2004 Antonio Gates throwback helmet from NFL Auctions looks

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/Antonio%20Gates/HPIM0096.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/Antonio%20Gates/HPIM0097.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/Antonio%20Gates/HPIM0098.jpg
2004 Philip Rivers from NFL Auctions. The previous owner got it signed in person...
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/Philip%20Rivers/HPIM0102.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/Philip%20Rivers/HPIM0104.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/Philip%20Rivers/HPIM0105.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/ecky3/Game%20Used%20Collection/Football/Philip%20Rivers/HPIM0103.jpg

[aeneas01]

Thank you aeneas, now that you have pointed out the facemask and lightning bolt differences, I see them. In fact, I have a signed Antonio Gates 2006 helmet that came from RealStuff (one of the main helmet copier businesses, although I often can see issues with their helmets) and now that I compare the lightning bolts, they are the same on the Gates copy and the LT helmet I have, and both are wider than Eric's. Or the photos. It would appear I have an otherwise outstanding knockoff of a 2004 game issue helmet, one I overpaid for.

i would agree that you have a very nice reproduction (although if you notice your padding is also different than what tomlinson wore in 2004; check out eric's). if nothing else lambeauleeper does take pride in his reproductions and they are very nice imo - it's just a shame he feels the need to misrepresent them for, in the scheme of things, a few extra bucks.


What intrigues me is the incredibly low volume lambeauleeper does, at least under that ID. In the last 12 months, he's logged but EIGHT seller's feedbacks. As of late, hHe's been reserving items resulting in "no sales". No "crook" can operate on that low of an income or profit margin. Ain't the way criminals work. Seems more probable to me he simply lacks your knowledge and picks these things up at shows, then moves items as he picks up new ones.

imho one doesn't need to move forgeries in volume to be a crook - some poor soul recently paid him $1,200 for a $150 marino reproduction. do about a dozen of those a year and that equates to close to $15k in tax-free part-time income - not too shabby considering he doesn't even have to mess with painting the shell!

as far as him inocently and unknowingly picking these up at shows thinking they are legit and listing them on ebay as such is concerned - nonsense. he specifically chooses easily replicated modern helmets and when he sells one he lists another after laying low for a while. his m.o. of placing a high reserve is intentional as it implies, to some anyway, that perhaps it is in fact of real value - it must be because he doesn't want to let it go for less than what it's worth, right? wrong.

how many emails do you think this guys has received in the last 3 years alone questioning his items? if he honestly picked them up at shows as you suggest, wouldn't you think he might wonder if they were in fact authentic and perhaps stop listing them until he was certain? but, no, he continues to list them - he's a crook.


BTW, I would be interested in any experience you have with Gridiron Authentics (gridironlegends on ebay). I've purchased many items from them over the years, and have discussed a number of things with the owner, including his tighter definition of "game issue". He's in New England and always seems to have great "game issue" items usually from the Pats. He has told me he gets these from either the teams or "their suppliers" and that neither he nor his staff "doctor" any helmets, apply no decals, etc. I have viewed them as perhaps the most honorable ebay sellers, and that includes comparing to guy's like Rick Radtke that use the now common "game issue" term on known copies.

i have no experience with gridironlegends - it appears they deal mostly in autographed photos, mini helmets and footballs none of which are my bag. but i'm always happy to hear that there are honorable memorabila dealers on ebay!

[mvandor]

Eric, here's my auto'd Gates reproduction. You really have to microscope these things to id differences it seems to me. Looks pretty much like yours without the damage, no?

http://www.thevandors.com/michael/images/Other/Gates_Game_Issue_Helmet.jpg


As to aeneas and lambeau, again, guy has a total of 8 buyer feedbacks in the last year. Don't get wasting your time for so little action. BTW he has a Marino helmet up now, and my previous communications with guys at Helmut Hut indicated that according to the Dolphins equipment manager during the Marino years, virtually NONE got out of his control. Based on that alone, I discount ALL Marino's as likely copies. Heck, I got a pretty good one from Pro Sports Investments back when I actually trusted them (see below). Figured it was bogus not only because the shell type seemed off from my research but you could see the outlines where the original warning stickers and NFL shield had been removed. At least I paid a reasonable price for a nice reproduction and the sig was an Upper Deck authenticated one.

http://www.thevandors.com/michael/images/Other/Marino_Game_Helmet.jpg

[jayt1234]

I have enjoed tremendously this post as someone who would like to increase my helmet collection. I just bough a Sam Hurd game used throwback from Game Used Exclusives. I know it is authentic and probally paid a bit more than I should have, but there is no denying its authenticity, and the thro backs get much less use. However I did buy a Marion Barber replica from Ebay and knew what I was buying, and it was sold as such. I also have a Drew Bledsoe autographed helmet I my girlfreind bought from his website. I know the signature is real, then I replicated the whole thing to his current Dallas helmet (all decals, Shutt mask, chin strap) it was a lot of work finding all of the decals (especially the dark blue Riddell front bumper), however it was fun and I would never sell it as real or game issued.

I though I would include a link to what a Dan Marino game used helmet would sell for in the real market.

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=707&Lot_No=19912&src=pr

http://images.heritagecoin.com/images/HNAI/300/707/707189003o.jpg

http://images.heritagecoin.com/images/HNAI/75/707/707189003a.jpg

Jay

[jayt1234]

Sorry, the price would not show up.

Jay

[aeneas01]

As to aeneas and lambeau, again, guy has a total of 8 buyer feedbacks in the last year. Don't get wasting your time for so little action. BTW he has a Marino helmet up now...

still not sure why his apparent limited activity is such a cause of curiosity for you - often times ebay sellers contact their buyers and ask that they not post any feedback for various reasons and often times feeback is never left. and who says he's wasting his time? perhaps he owns and operates a memorabilia shop where he sells the bulk of his forgeries and dabbles on ebay just enough not to draw attention to himslef.

anyway, here are other "game-issued" fakes from lambeauleeper including another very rare marino helmet that he sold on ebay last month for $1,200...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/1025fake04.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/1025fake02.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/1025fake01.jpg

one of his many favre lids...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/550favregameworn3.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/550favregameworn2.jpg

one of his many elway lids...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/455elway2.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/455elway1.jpg

a brees...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/425breesfake3.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/425breesfake2.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/425breesfake1-1.jpg

a reggie white...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/420reggiewhitefake2-1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/420reggiewhitefake1-1.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/420reggiewhitefake3-1.jpg

the guy must have some pretty impressive connections to get his hands on so many "game issued" lids from current and future hall of famers, eh? why mess around obscure players when you can get a hold of multiple lids per super star? good grief...

[mvandor]

Well, IMHO if he makes these himself, he does superior work to the volume repro guys on ebay, and should seriously consider going straight and playing the volume repro market. I don't think any of his last batch of items broke reserve.

[Eric]

"Better" you are posting from the same IP address as Dolphin13. You are obviously Lambeauleeper and are trying another deceptive tactic to fool people.

It is against forum rules to post from multiple user names, so you have been banned.

Good luck with your endeavors in the future. Don't bother trying to sign up under yet another name. I will shut that down too.
Eric

[aeneas01]

:cool: I don't get it, lambeau is offering REALLY nice collectible for a fraction of the cost of a 30K helmet.They look nice to me!

guess this puts to rest the notion of any innocence on his part - not only is he knowingly misrepresenting his items, but he's also having quite a bit of fun with it at this forum's expense.

from his latest ebay ad:

"This helmet was issued to Dan Marino for on-field GAME USE during the 1998 season. "

the most scary thing about this punk is that he will probably try to raise kids some day - what a bright future they're sure to have...

[aeneas01]

I've seen some 2004 photos that look pretty close to lambeau's helmet pictured. The mask is the only issue that I see. The problem I see with the memorabilia issues on auctions especially Ebay is that people are looking for a STEAL. They wont pay $3-$5,000.00 for a game worn helmet with a team letter. So they go to Ebay and want to pay next to nothing for an item then bitch. If you purchase a Brady jersey for $700.00 on Ebay, don't expect it to be a $5,000.00 game jersey. I've seen Gridiron Brady helmets and Favre VSR helmets which are the wrong size and model sell for over $1,000.00. Lambeau at least has the correct size and models WD-1, WD-2, SCHUTT, etc. I don't see the big deal if they are the proper size, model and decaling calling them game issued. Team or games used.....that's different.

eric -

heck, i didn't even notice dolphin13's multiple posts until i saw that you banned him for registering under another name (better) - i guess i was too caught up in discussing the issue with mvandor, a discussion i enjoyed very much given mvandor's honesty and candor.

i have little doubt that this guy is lambeauleeper - comments such as his which i underlined above are typical of memorabilia crooks. many of these guys rationalize their fraudulent behaviour by claiming it is the buyer, motivated by greed and "getting something for nothing", who is the culprit not the seller. these crooks believe that they just give these buyers what they want which is the belief that they got an absolute steal on an authentic gem once belonging to the pro.

these crooks have also found a market for their wares with indifferent memorabilia shop owners who aren't too picky about the origins of an item just as long as they can "honestly" say that the source they obtained it from assured them that it was authentic. this gives them the green light to mark it up and pass it along as such.

[mvandor]

aeneas, you have convinced me about both my helmet and lambeau, as has the dolphins13 escapade here. I appreciate the time you took in proving your points to me. He is both a very good game issued helmet replicator and a very dishonest seller, albeit a low volume, petty one.

As I am a Charger fan in SD and:

1) as I'm already out the $ on this helmet,
2) as I wouldn't resell it dishonestly which means I'd resell at a loss,
3) as I doubt I'll ever be able to acquire a real one like Eric, and;
4) as it is at least the best LT helmet copy I've seen...

I intend to get it autographed next time he does a SoCal signing and keep it in my collection. Heck, if I get it signed at mini camp for free, the market value will exceed what I paid and I'll actually be ahead on the deal.

Once again, this board has proven itself a worthwhile endeavor.

Thank you.

[jayt1234]

I think you have really hit the nail on the head. You have a great helmet and for display and or collection purposes it really does serve a purpose. If you bought it as game issued, I would be a bit disapointed as well but at least what you paid for, and it was not anywhere near what the Marino helmets are going for.

I was thinking about this last night. I for one like the specific game issued replicas 100 time more than just the generic Riddell team issue helmets tha are sold for nearly $300 anyway. BUT...think about how few people outside of this forum would be able to disect your helmet v.s. the real thing. I know for a fact whenever I get something new my girfriend just rolls her eyes knowing I am going to give her a lesson on what makes what I just bought worth all lthe money I paid.

Although she does listen a bit because when she saw my Sam Hurd throw back helmet she mentiond that the stickers on the back and the Dymo tape made it look real. I had to explain that unlike the other two this was actually the real thing.

If you can get that autographed like you mentioned than I think it will make for a great collection piece.

Jay

[aeneas01]

I intend to get it autographed next time he does a SoCal signing and keep it in my collection. Heck, if I get it signed at mini camp for free, the market value will exceed what I paid and I'll actually be ahead on the deal.

with or without lt's jh you have a very nice helmet - search ebay for the correct facemask and it will be even nicer. and, as you mentioned, once you do get it signed it will indeed be very special!

btw it looks like lambeauleeper's "game issued" marino helmet didn't meet his reserve - it did however reach $400; god only knows what this charlatan set his reserve at! perhaps some of the potential bidders found their way to this great forum and reconsidered!

[mvandor]

with or without lt's jh you have a very nice helmet - search ebay for the correct facemask and it will be even nicer. and, as you mentioned, once you do get it signed it will indeed be very special!
As far as I could tell the side portion was the only giveaway on the facemask, and I noted afterwards that all of the LT helmet copies I saw were using the same facemask, which I presume means an accurate one is tough to get, rather like Manning's Revolution mask which is no longer manufactured as I understand it.

Do you have any suggestions to help me locate a 100% accurate mask?

[aeneas01]

As far as I could tell the side portion was the only giveaway on the facemask, and I noted afterwards that all of the LT helmet copies I saw were using the same facemask, which I presume means an accurate one is tough to get, rather like Manning's Revolution mask which is no longer manufactured as I understand it.

Do you have any suggestions to help me locate a 100% accurate mask?

i don't think the type of facemask you need (schutt ropo-dw) is particularly rare or hard to find especially given that it's only a few years old - just check on ebay from time to time. for example, here's one in purple that is about to sell...

http://cgi.ebay.com/FOOTBALL-HELMET-FACE-MASK-VIKINGS-PURPLE-RIDDELL-NEW_W0QQitemZ160120056034QQihZ006QQcategoryZ21222Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or you might google "football facemasks" or "ropo-dw" and ask the sellers if they have any older stock models for sale...

[mvandor]

i don't think the type of facemask you need (schutt ropo-dw) is particularly rare or hard to find especially given that it's only a few years old - just check on ebay from time to time. for example, here's one in purple that is about to sell...

http://cgi.ebay.com/FOOTBALL-HELMET-FACE-MASK-VIKINGS-PURPLE-RIDDELL-NEW_W0QQitemZ160120056034QQihZ006QQcategoryZ21222Q QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or you might google "football facemasks" or "ropo-dw" and ask the sellers if they have any older stock models for sale...
Hmm, most of the ebay listings don't show the side and ones that do, like http://cgi.ebay.com/Football-Helmet-Facemask-ROPO-DW-Royal-BLUE-Schutt_W0QQitemZ260097183038QQihZ016QQcategoryZ206 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem, show to be the identical shape/configuration I have. Apparently that minor difference on the side doesn't disqualify the mask as being a ropo-dw.

But I'll set a search and see what turns up, thanks!!!

[aeneas01]

Hmm, most of the ebay listings don't show the side and ones that do, like http://cgi.ebay.com/Football-Helmet-Facemask-ROPO-DW-Royal-BLUE-Schutt_W0QQitemZ260097183038QQihZ016QQcategoryZ206 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem, show to be the identical shape/configuration I have. Apparently that minor difference on the side doesn't disqualify the mask as being a ropo-dw.

But I'll set a search and see what turns up, thanks!!!

here's your mask -

fwiw the helmet its attached to is a nocona (despite the adams chinstrap) - nocona specializes in youth helmets for pop-warner / youth leagues and is not worn at the college or pro level. i mention this because most helmet collectors know this and, as such, this helmet probably won't go for much at all. or you might just contact the seller to see if he has another mask available...

http://cgi.ebay.com/TB-DALLAS-COWBOYS-LARGE-FOOTBALL-HELMET-SIZE-7-5-8_W0QQitemZ280121728703QQihZ018QQcategoryZ25195QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[mvandor]

here's your mask -

fwiw the helmet its attached to is a nocona (despite the adams chinstrap) - nocona specializes in youth helmets for pop-warner / youth leagues and is not worn at the college or pro level. i mention this because most helmet collectors know this and, as such, this helmet probably won't go for much at all. or you might just contact the seller to see if he has another mask available...

http://cgi.ebay.com/TB-DALLAS-COWBOYS-LARGE-FOOTBALL-HELMET-SIZE-7-5-8_W0QQitemZ280121728703QQihZ018QQcategoryZ25195QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Thank you for the help, I've emailed him!