Roberto Clemente GU? cap on Leland's May auction.

[clementeking]

Can anyone photo match the supposedly game used Roberto Clemente cap currently on Lelands May auction?? I can't and neither can Lelands. I contacted them about the provenance of this cap and was told a Pirates collector in Pittsburgh said it 'looked right.'

I have over 1,500 Clemente photos and can't find him wearing the one they have on this auction.

Circa 1967, the pirates wore a cap with a 'P' on a patch that was only worn for like a year or two and then discarded. I sent them a photo of Clemente wearing this type of cap and showing the differences to the one they are auctioning. The one they have has the number 21 markered under the bill. In actuality, Clemente only markered 21 under the bill in his rookie days from 1955- 1957. Also, the patch is cut more square than the one Clemente actually wore. Other differences abound.

What really gets me is that their Clemente? cap shows tons of use......why can't it be photo matched???

The bottom line is this......Look at the cap at their site and if anyone has a photo match of this cap, I'll bid stupidly heavy on this item as I am a Clemente fanatic. But I seriously doubt Clemente ever held or SAW this cap. Can someone prove me wrong. Only 4 days to go.

[The Lumber Company]

Why don't you pose the question directly to Mike Heffner at Lelands's? They consistently get good Pirates/Clemente stuff and he will probably give you more info than you currently have.
They will often (not always) pull items if they are questionable.
Good luck
Marty

[clementeking]

Marty-
I certainly did contact Mike Heffner, Josh Evans and Keith over at Leland's. Josh emailed me back that he was out of the country and will let Keith get back to me. Mike didn't respond at all. Perhaps he was relying on Keith to respond. Well, I contacted Keith again Sunday night as to more info on the provenance and he has yet to respond.

As a hardcore Clemente collector, I need more evidence than a collector in Pittsburgh saying the cap looks right. As I type this, the bids on the cap are over $4,000.00.

Right now there's another GU? Clemente cap at Gray Flannel also with a LARGE '21' markered underneath that they admit has a 'clubhouse' signature. What really boggles the mind is that Clemente had a small head and wore a 6 7/8 - 7. This hat is a 7 7/8th's!!!

[Mike Heffner]

We are totally comfortable with the authenticity of the Roberto Clemente game worn cap in our May 18th auction. The cap style (with sewn on logo) was used for only a few years during the 1967-68 time period and is rare. We have photos of Pirates players of the era wearing this exact style with the same sewn on logo. This cap has a vintage "21" written under the brim in bled marker. There is no doubt that it is vintage and original. The cap size is very small, estimated at 6 7/8 since the size tag is too worn to read. Clemente wore a size 6 7/8 to 7.

When Doug questioned the cap both Keith and I reviewed it again and still felt 100% comfortable. We also shipped it out to a Pirates collector for his opinion. He also felt that the cap was authentic. Althought it can't (yet) be photo matched we do not feel that this is reason enough to discount its autheticity. I have collected game worn caps for over 20 years. In those years I have owned hundreds of caps and can count on one hand those that I could photomatch. Photomatching a game worn baseball cap is very difficult.

As for the response to Doug, all of his questions were answered by Keith (Vice President of Lelands) in a timely manner. Keith was handling his questions so I did not feel a need to get involved.

Mike Heffner

[clementeking]

Mike Heffner-
I really appreciate your quick response here on the forum. Keith has yet to get back to me regarding the provenance of this cap. Did it come from a fellow team member of Clemente's? a relative? Phil Dorsey's estate? I really need something in the way of the caps history for 'me' to be 100% comfortable. There was a Clemente game used cap that was pulled from your auction site a year and a half or so. It also had the number markered on the underside of the bill which clemente never did during that time frame.

Actually, photo matching a cap is easy especially if the player is a great like Roberto Clamente. Close ups of him are all over the place in magazines, yearbooks, bb cards, etc. The two game worn Clemente caps I got from Leland's years ago are 'photo matched' to a tee with hundreds of photos. AND they are the best pieces I own. Loose threads, imperfect stitching are what to watch for. Clemente had a nervous habit of pulling at the stitching under the peak until there was hardly any left.

Well, I won't be bidding on the cap (unless Keith gets back to me with a story to my liking) but I will be bidding on other items in your auction.

Onward..............Doug Edwards

[Mike Heffner]

Doug,

I will make sure that Keith gets back to you with the history.

Thanks,

Mike

[clementeking]

I just received an eMail from Keith at Lelands. Here is his full (unedited) reply regarding the 'history' of this cap supposedly GU by Roberto Clemente:
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"I just got off the phone with the consignor and hat was purchased in a collection in the 70's from a team employee. This is all the history that I will be able to come up with on this item. As I mentioned before the item stands on its own and if you are not happy with it not being photo matched please do not bid on this item. I only wish that I could be of more assistance."
Thankyou,
Keith Vari
Lelands.com
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How can this item stand on its own if it's not the one he wore in the 1969 Milton Bradley card as stated (read hinted) in the description of this cap? How can the item stand on its own if it shows years of tremendous game use yet a photo can't be supplied. How can it stand on its own with the inadequate 'history?' listed above. How can it stand on its own if all photos in 1968 - 69 show Clemente wearing a DIFFERENT hat with the 'P' on a patch?

I will not be bidding on this GU Clemente? cap tomorrow night!!

Onward.......... Doug Edwards

[pietraynor]

Not meaning to dig this up again, but picked up a stack of old baseball magazines today, there's an obscure one titled "Superstar Sports" from 1972, this is Vol. 1 Iss. 1 w/Tom Seaver on the cover..inside has full-color 8x10" pics of star players & Clemente is shown wearing a cap w/ the "patch" P on the front, can't tell a lot from the photo, just thought it was odd to catch that..I don't see any number under the brim of his hat. Jay.