BUFFALO BILLS Bruce Smith game jersey 1993 or 1994 ??? on ebay [Archive]

mchmaj

06-27-2007, 12:07 PM

i saw the jersey on ebay , bills white jersey #78 bruce smith ... i thought its ok until i saw the tagging, it show 1993 tag and then yet i saw two patches of 35th and 75 anniv , BUT the bills worn these patches during 1994 season. so what shuld i name this jersey as doctoring ? it was real 1993 game jersey then someone added patches ?? and whats more MEARS hologram sticker is on the jersey , and LOU as well !
so who made mistake ? LOU or MEARS ??
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=010&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=200122019706&rd=1&rd=1

SuperMario66

06-27-2007, 12:26 PM

Hi, new here but I saw that jersey too. I have seen jerseys in the past with the 1993 tagging have the 94' 75th patches most likely because of re-use or re-issue of the team. The Cowboys have many photos wearing 93' tagging with the 94' 75th patches on them. However, the thing that throws me off on this one is the name "Smith" on the back and not "B. Smith" with which I have photomatched the namplate on his game worn 94 jerseys. I also came across just the "Smith" on his nameplate but that was from the year 1989. So that jersey appears to have either rebadging + added patches or I don't know where he got that jersey.

Also, he has many questionable gamers for sale with marks and traits that don't fit for those years, styles, players. Hope this helps !

mchmaj

06-27-2007, 01:02 PM

kingjammy24

06-27-2007, 01:42 PM

..and whats more MEARS hologram sticker is on the jersey ,... so who made mistake ? LOU or MEARS ??
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Bruce Smith Jersey on E-Bay

June 27 2007 at 11:21 AM Dave Grob (davegrob1@aol.com) Dave Grob (Login davegrob1 (http://www.network54.com/Profile/davegrob1))There is currently a Bruce Smith jersey on E-Bay that shows a MEARS hologram but no letter. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...9706&rd=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...9706&rd=1&rd=1)

MEARS Members can see that hologram 305008 is assigned to a 1993 Bruce Smith home jersey and has been identified as NOT GRADABLE. The comments for this jersey include:

MEARS is unable to authenticate this jersey due to the following inconsistencies: 1) simulated wear; 2) jersey is a 1993 shell with 1994 patches applied (NFL 75th Anniversary, Bills 35th Anniversary); 3) NOB should read "B. Smith"; 4) shell wear not consistent with repairs -- no hit marks, turf stains, etc.

As in all cases, the presence of a MEARS hologram does not mean the item is problem free. We encourage bidders and buyer of MEARS evaluated items to ask to see the final letter and worksheet that was prepared for the item.

Dave Grob
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rudy.

Eric

06-27-2007, 02:14 PM

Am i correct in connecting the dots here- Mears calls it "unable to authenticate" and lampson authenticates it?

kingjammy24

06-27-2007, 03:07 PM

if the mere presence of the mears hologram doesn't necessarily indicate a positive authentication then perhaps the same can be said of lampson's hologram.

the difference is that anyone can ask mears to look up any of their hologram numbers. where do i go to look up lou's hologram number? i can't tell for certain but lou's hologram looks to be #1392. where do i type that in or who do i ask to look it up? a mears hologram number actually leads somewhere whereas lou's number leads absolutely nowhere. when all roads lead to a blackhole, it's impossible to guess what lou's authentication on this piece entailed. perhaps like mears' authentication, it mentioned these issues? maybe it didn't. who knows.

don't forget that someone submitted this jersey to mears, received a verdict of "not gradeable", detailing the serious issues, and yet decided to pass it off as "game used" anyway without so much as mentioning the grade it recieved or the issues. it'd be interesting to ask the seller for the actual mears grade and if they have the corresponding mears paperwork or if it was "lost".

rudy.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5963/smithcx5.jpg

SuperMario66

06-27-2007, 06:35 PM

no way the bills recycle their jerseys, they went to super bowl from 1990 to 1993 ... and 1994 season the champion gave BILLS new champion style with new champion logo on upper sleeves, while this bruce smith jersey tagged 1993 culd be correct but added patches make it worst and 1993 season the BILLS worn champion logos on the stripes on each sleeves

That's just not a true statement sorry. how do you know for a fact they didn't recyle jerseys? I watched the playoff game against the Oilers where Frank Reich and a few other players were still wearing APEX while the rest of the team was wearing Champion. Also alot of the Linebackers and Linemans Champion Logos aren't all on the top of the numbers. Look at Smith jersey here in this pic from 94' where the logo should be on top of the 78 on the right sleeve compared to #90.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/50730375.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=4996399091E8318622A430FCB0BC0523591E7EC1A351FC8B

mchmaj

06-27-2007, 07:21 PM

i think u dont understand word RECYCLE means, they dont reuse the jerseys from 1993 season to 1994 season, beacuse during 1994 seaosn they worn different mesh body materials, more toughlike than 1993 (lighter mesh materials)
yeah the champion logos culd be in different areas BUT the champion logo is bigger and in blue n red during 1994 seasons, NO WAY they worn old champion logo such as 1993 bruce smith jersey during 1994 season...

now for apex, apex was worn during 1993 season by various players for the BILLS, some champion some apex, apex may be sewn over the champion logos. But they are not RECYCLED !!!

mchmaj

06-27-2007, 07:29 PM

That's just not a true statement sorry. how do you know for a fact they didn't recyle jerseys? I watched the playoff game against the Oilers where Frank Reich and a few other players were still wearing APEX while the rest of the team was wearing Champion. Also alot of the Linebackers and Linemans Champion Logos aren't all on the top of the numbers. Look at Smith jersey here in this pic from 94' where the logo should be on top of the 78 on the right sleeve compared to #90.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/50730375.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=4996399091E8318622A430FCB0BC0523591E7EC1A351FC8B

i know for the fact they dont recycle jerseys, however dont let photo fool ya, bruce smith is in the angle where we cannot see the champion logos, however i have photo that show the champion logo same area as the #90 shown

SuperMario66

06-27-2007, 08:44 PM

SuperMario66

06-27-2007, 09:00 PM

Well, it won't let me post the other pics, but the images from late in 1993 season and Super Bowl XXVIII have the same logos. anyway, the point is that jersey is inconsistent in many areas not just the tags and patches. I think most of his stuff is questionable as well.

G1X

06-27-2007, 09:37 PM

Gentlemen!

I am not about to step into the middle of the argument of the legitimacy of this particular Bruce Smith jersey or whether the Bills did or did not "recycle" their 1993 jerseys into 1994.

HOWEVER, READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY AND WRITE IT DOWN AS GOSPEL. MOST NFL TEAMS HAVE HISTORICALLY RECYCLED JERSEYS FOR POSSIBLE GAME USE FROM ONE SEASON TO THE NEXT (OR EVEN SEVERAL YEARS DOWN THE ROAD), AND THEY STILL DO IT ALTHOUGH PROBABLY NOT NEAR AS MUCH AS IN THE PAST. RECYCLING JERSEYS IS A FACT THAT IS VERIFIABLE IN PHOTOS AS WELL AS WITH EQUIPMENT MANAGERS AND COLLECTORS. IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS FACT, THEN YOU WILL HAVE MUCH ANXIETY IN TRYING TO COLLECT GAME-WORN FOOTBALL JERSEYS, ESPECIALLY OLDER JERSEYS.

Most teams have historically obtained a new set (or sets) of jerseys each year. However, previously issued jerseys are/were often kept for a variety of reasons (mainly to have replacements on hand). I hope this information is helpful.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

Blitzmaster

06-28-2007, 02:33 AM

Bruce Smith wore a size 42 jersey in the summer and a size 44 in the winter. I have been friends with Shane Conlans wife, Caroline for years and had was given a Bruce Smith jersey(size 42) from the 1992 season. Bruce was at a Baseball card at the Cow Palace(San Francisco) back in the late 90's and was excited when i told him that the jersey was a gift from Shane. I was amazed that the 42 would fit such a large man and he laughed and stated that it took a little help getting them on and told me about wearing the different sizes . Look at the pictures on Getty images and you will never find him wearing a loose jersey like a size 50.

G1X

06-28-2007, 08:47 AM

Thanks, Blitzmaster. Redemption at last!!!

I had a nice game-worn Bruce Smith jersey when he played with Washington that was a size 42. More than a few eyebrows were raised when I put it up for sale a few years ago. The response I heard on more than one occasion was, "No way it's real as Bruce could not possibly fit into a size 42. He probably hasn't worn a size 42 since the 8th grade. It's a fake!"

Never mind that the jersey showed good use, came directly from a team Tent Sale, and matched at least two other well-worn 'Skins Smith jerseys in the hobby that were size 42.

On a side note, more linemen are now wearing smaller sizes such as 42s. It depends on the style of jersey and a player's individual preferences. Although all teams use Reebok, different teams wear different styles (another story for another day). For example, due to the differences in the style-cut, Falcons linemen can be found wearing 42s while almost all Eagles linemen are wearing at least a size 50 (as of the 1995 season).

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

mchmaj

06-28-2007, 02:20 PM

ok, here is several photos, some from 1993 season with same logo and some from 1994 with the logo not above the numbers.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/50730368.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=4996399091E83186936C8259577E818E59D55AD35CA51490

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/50730326.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=4996399091E83186954CBE48D8A5EFB24EF3EA9A178B7582

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/50730305.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=4996399091E831865D0743FFBDBEAA1D591E7EC1A351FC8B

Now 1993 with same champion logo and without

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/72503418.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABB3D62E7B44DC2A3E9

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/71395954.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABB7497411D4000F2CB

f
supermario66, you seem cannot see the different ???
the old logos are from 1994 super bowl against dallas..
the other pictures with THICKER champion logos are from 1994 seaosn

other guys saying NFL teams recycle jerseys , YES you may be right BUT BILLS DID NOT RECYCLE THEIR JERSEYS from 1993 to 1994 beacuse champion got their new style n logos, you can see during 1994 season, it showed new champion logo above the numbers OR next to the numbers , the champion logo during 1994 season is DIFFERENT THAN 1993,1992,1991,1990 !!! I KNOW BILLS UNIFORM HISTORY VERY WELL , i even correctly a guy who think he owned game worn jim kelly 80s jersey, but its not even his as bad numbers and all. TRUST ME BILLS did not recycle jerseys for 1994 season as its special season because of 75th season. AND champion made "new" year tagging by having team's helmet and year next to size tag on lower tail of the jerseys, that applied to BEARS,and BILLS that i know of ....
a tip here, next time i brought up about BILLS jerseys, do not question ME ! i am right about BILLS uniforms at most of the time.
thanks !
marcus chmaj

SuperMario66

06-28-2007, 04:39 PM

supermario66, you seem cannot see the different ???
the old logos are from 1994 super bowl against dallas..
the other pictures with THICKER champion logos are from 1994 seaosn

other guys saying NFL teams recycle jerseys , YES you may be right BUT BILLS DID NOT RECYCLE THEIR JERSEYS from 1993 to 1994 beacuse champion got their new style n logos, you can see during 1994 season, it showed new champion logo above the numbers OR next to the numbers , the champion logo during 1994 season is DIFFERENT THAN 1993,1992,1991,1990 !!! I KNOW BILLS UNIFORM HISTORY VERY WELL , i even correctly a guy who think he owned game worn jim kelly 80s jersey, but its not even his as bad numbers and all. TRUST ME BILLS did not recycle jerseys for 1994 season as its special season because of 75th season. AND champion made "new" year tagging by having team's helmet and year next to size tag on lower tail of the jerseys, that applied to BEARS,and BILLS that i know of ....
a tip here, next time i brought up about BILLS jerseys, do not question ME ! i am right about BILLS uniforms at most of the time.
thanks !
marcus chmaj

Well ok then Mr. Buffalo Bill!!!

If your so good and not to be questioned, how come you didn't question the nameplate??? I said before teams are known to recycle jerseys and that his jersey was bogus in several areas. What is your point? Auction has ended....

mchmaj

06-28-2007, 05:58 PM

Well ok then Mr. Buffalo Bill!!!

If your so good and not to be questioned, how come you didn't question the nameplate??? I said before teams are known to recycle jerseys and that his jersey was bogus in several areas. What is your point? Auction has ended....
no need to mock me, u the one who didnt research enough... u brought up about champion logos u were wrong about that and i just correct your mistake about champion logos.... now about SMITH on back, i didnt even look at that, two things i looked at ... #1 is beacuse he always worn b.smith like everyone agreeed :)
#2 BILLS never run that long nameplate BUT only from STORE BROUGHT authentics. (bills team jerseys always has their nameplate run to fit the names), for example here, i posted picture of my 1993 kelly....
ur post about champion logos mislead some people so i wanted to prevent that to happen so i posted FACTS about BILLS with champion supply logos difference from 1993 n 1994

thanks :)
marcus

G1X

06-28-2007, 07:49 PM

Marcus,

I am by no means intending to question your Bills knowledge, but if I am reading post #3 correctly, you stated that the Bills wore the Champion logos on the sleeve stripes in 1993. Just so that we are absolutely clear and don't mislead or confuse anyone, the Champion logo can be found in several places on the sleeves of the 1993 jerseys.

Also, to further not mislead or confuse anyone about recycling jerseys, I will repeat one of my earlier posts in this thread. I underlined a few key words for emphasis.

Gentlemen!

I am not about to step into the middle of the argument of the legitimacy of this particular Bruce Smith jersey or whether the Bills did or did not "recycle" their 1993 jerseys into 1994.

HOWEVER, READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY AND WRITE IT DOWN AS GOSPEL. MOST NFL TEAMS HAVE HISTORICALLY RECYCLED JERSEYS FOR POSSIBLE GAME USE FROM ONE SEASON TO THE NEXT (OR EVEN SEVERAL YEARS DOWN THE ROAD), AND THEY STILL DO IT ALTHOUGH PROBABLY NOT NEAR AS MUCH AS IN THE PAST. RECYCLING JERSEYS IS A FACT THAT IS VERIFIABLE IN PHOTOS AS WELL AS WITH EQUIPMENT MANAGERS AND COLLECTORS. IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS FACT, THEN YOU WILL HAVE MUCH ANXIETY IN TRYING TO COLLECT GAME-WORN FOOTBALL JERSEYS, ESPECIALLY OLDER JERSEYS.

Most teams have historically obtained a new set (or sets) of jerseys each year. However, previously issued jerseys are/were often kept for a variety of reasons (mainly to have replacements on hand). I hope this information is helpful.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

mvandor

06-29-2007, 04:21 PM

no need to mock me, u the one who didnt research enough... u brought up about champion logos u were wrong about that and i just correct your mistake about champion logos.... now about SMITH on back, i didnt even look at that, two things i looked at ... #1 is beacuse he always worn b.smith like everyone agreeed :)
#2 BILLS never run that long nameplate BUT only from STORE BROUGHT authentics. (bills team jerseys always has their nameplate run to fit the names), for example here, i posted picture of my 1993 kelly....
ur post about champion logos mislead some people so i wanted to prevent that to happen so i posted FACTS about BILLS with champion supply logos difference from 1993 n 1994

thanks :)
marcus
marcus, you bring this on yourself, between your arrogant post and your broken english. Most of us understand there are no perfect world's in identifying game use, far too many variables to lay down 100% rules most of the time.

mchmaj

06-29-2007, 05:47 PM

marcus, you bring this on yourself, between your arrogant post and your broken english. Most of us understand there are no perfect world's in identifying game use, far too many variables to lay down 100% rules most of the time.
was i arrogant ?? i dont think so....
there are some experts on this forum and they pointed out somethings about jerseys and other experts listens... but when i post something every time someone had to questioned me ... thas why i fed up ...sorry if anyone took this seriously ... i just knew alot about the BILLS jerseys in 80s and 90s than anyone else...
like i said before bills champion logo are in different locations on sleeeves BUT the style of champion logos itself ARE DIFFERENT from 1993 and 1994...
and yes, with BILLS current jerseys' style, they does recycle them often ....
next time i post something about BILLS, i will be right most of the time so please dont look at my english as weakness , its not my first language as everyone else here ...BUT i know my EYES are more active than anyone here beacuse you guys uses your ears everyday while my ears are useless !!! LOL
marcus chmaj

XPFO

07-01-2007, 08:51 AM

Well...I contacted the seller and let him know the problems and what the Mears number brings up in the system and his response was "That's nice I bought it in a Vintage Authentics auction about 9 months ago but lost the LOA for $800 or so...go look it up"

Another case of people not caring what they sell despite having the proof of the problems dangled in front of their face. I wonder how much the buyer this time is going to get screwed for.

I also let him know that VA is where a lot of questionably items get dumped and that Lampson is known as one of the shadiest aithenticators in the business....he won't care, just saying my peace.

SuperMario66

07-02-2007, 09:15 AM

was i arrogant ?? i dont think so....
there are some experts on this forum and they pointed out somethings about jerseys and other experts listens... but when i post something every time someone had to questioned me ... thas why i fed up ...sorry if anyone took this seriously ... i just knew alot about the BILLS jerseys in 80s and 90s than anyone else...
like i said before bills champion logo are in different locations on sleeeves BUT the style of champion logos itself ARE DIFFERENT from 1993 and 1994...
and yes, with BILLS current jerseys' style, they does recycle them often ....
next time i post something about BILLS, i will be right most of the time so please dont look at my english as weakness , its not my first language as everyone else here ...BUT i know my EYES are more active than anyone here beacuse you guys uses your ears everyday while my ears are useless !!! LOL
marcus chmaj

Until I see a letter from the Buffalo Bills equipment managers during that time stating that they "NEVER" recycle'd jersey's, I will question anyone. I appreciate your knowledge but the all knowing act on a forum board is pathetic. I was mearly trying to help with the conversation with the facts that I clearly stated in my previous posts.

In post #2 - I mentioned the nameplate that somehow escaped your vast Bills jersey knowledge. I then got the sarcasm and unjustified "godlike" answers to my posts from you - Mr. Buffalo Bill. I didn't come here to listen to smug people like you demean people, but to hopefully add to the various discussions here and also learn more myself from the other forum members. Good Day !

mchmaj

07-02-2007, 01:08 PM

Until I see a letter from the Buffalo Bills equipment managers during that time stating that they "NEVER" recycle'd jersey's, I will question anyone. I appreciate your knowledge but the all knowing act on a forum board is pathetic. I was mearly trying to help with the conversation with the facts that I clearly stated in my previous posts.

In post #2 - I mentioned the nameplate that somehow escaped your vast Bills jersey knowledge. I then got the sarcasm and unjustified "godlike" answers to my posts from you - Mr. Buffalo Bill. I didn't come here to listen to smug people like you demean people, but to hopefully add to the various discussions here and also learn more myself from the other forum members. Good Day !
i did not even pay attention to the nameplate beacuse its not even team's nameplate cut like i posted my KELLY
and u dont need to call me names , i did not call u anything or to anyone else , so pls respect ..... however i expressed my feeling about posting BILLS smith jersey and everyone questioned ME, and i know the bills uniform more than anyone else here. and u were being silly to say i need to see letter from the bills that they did not recycle the uniforms, HELLO ?? they does recycle their uniforms with current style BUT BETWEEN 1993 and 1994 I KNOW THEY DID NOT :)
i got better source of bills and research skills
have a great 4th of the july
thanks
marcus