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View Full Version : Staubach Helmet on Ebay



mvandor
08-05-2007, 10:58 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ROGER-STAUBACH-AUTO-GAME-USED-GAME-WORN-HELMET_W0QQitemZ160144258101QQihZ006QQcategoryZ868 29QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Aeneas, interested in your comments on this supposed Staubach lid, seems like a very easy one to knockoff and I believe you had some questions re: this seller on another item.

beantown
08-05-2007, 12:40 PM
aeneas01...I would like to hear your comments on that as well...also have another helmet that has hit Ebay....Ray Lewis Ravens helmet...the seller has been discussed before....what are your thoughts?

http://cgi.ebay.com/RAY-LEWIS-RAVENS-GAME-USED-WORN-HELMET_W0QQitemZ130140782846QQihZ003QQcategoryZ868 28QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

aeneas01
08-06-2007, 07:47 PM
yeah, i saw the helmet a few days go and was going to start a thread about it - as a matter of fact, i've been chatting with dalcowbill about it via emails...

fwiw, dalcowbill is an enigma as far as i'm concerned - he really does strike me as a nice, likable guy and doesn't seem to get defensive or ugly when the authenticity of his items are questioned (unlike others i've come across). but, oth, his explanations just don't hold up. is he deliberately trying to mislead? hard to tell...

as far as the staubach helmet is concerned, imo there are far too many problems with it for it to be considered the real deal.

1. staubach only wore a riddell suspension helmet during his first four years in the league (1969-1972). in 1973 he switched to a clear-shell max pro which he continued to wear for the remainder of his career. given that dalcowbill's helmet is date stamped 1975 (i.e., manufactured in 1975) i just don't see how it could have ever belonged to staubach let alone been worn by him.

2. the wire photo (nabbed from getty) dalcowbill decided to use in his ad shows staubach wearing a suspension helmet and is dated 1975. but, as is often the case with many wire photos, it's dated incorrectly - this particular photo is actually from the 1971 playoff game between the vikes and boys. staubach can be clearly seen wearing his clear-shell max pro during the 1975 boys/vikes playoff game in nfl film's "the dallas cowboys - the complete history".

3. even if dalcowbill's helmet was date stamped correctly, it would still not be accurate given that it's not fitted with the custom exra-wide nose snubber staubach and other cowboys (hill, renfro, etc.) wore during this period. the only time staubach wore a riddell suspension helmet with this type of stock nose snubber was during his rookie (1969) season - but it was a pre-1970 suspension helmet which had a gray snubber, not a white one (riddell switched from gray to white rubber in 1970).

4. dalcowbill suggested in one of his emails to me that perhaps staubach went back to the suspension helmet for a game or two in 1975. while i guess anything's possible, i've never seen any evidence of this nor does it strike me as at all likely - especially given that he had been wearing his max pro for three years by the time the end of the 1975 season rolled around.

5. dalcowbill also told me that the staubach lettering on the dymo tape was positioned correctly (bottom to top) on his helmet and that the tape on the game used staubach helmet featured at helmet hut was incorrect (top to bottom) and, therefore, the helmet hut helmet was suspect. he stated:

"i have never seen on a game worn cowboys helmet the dymo tape name starts from the top and goes down like on the helmet hut helmet- it always starts from the bottom of the helmet and goes up"

this simply isn't correct - at least this wasn't the case during the '60s and early '70s (before bucky buchanan took over as equipment manager). here's a game photo of lilly with the tape in the same position as the staubach helmet at helmet hut.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/01-3.jpg

imo this 1975 helmet was intentionally made to look like staubach's circa 1969-1972 helmet - i also believe that the dymo tape was carefully prepared using helme hut's game used staubach lid as a template. further, i wouldn't be surprised to discover that the unused facemask holes appearing on dalcowbill's helmet were hand drilled (instead of factory drilled as was the case with the cowboys' helmets of the '60s early '70s (per helmet hut)) in an effort to make this helmet match staubach's game used lid.

from a couple of dalcowbill's emails to me:

"i've had this helmet quite a long time. i don't remember what year i got it or who i got it from..."

"as i said i've had this helmet for years and i doubt very seriuosly that someone would try to fake it way back then?"

jayt1234
08-07-2007, 08:31 AM
This guy (dalcowbill) buys up so much Cowboys GU equipment, and then sells at a pretty high mark up....His You can look up most of his in stock helmets & uniform items on Heritage Auctions to see what he paid for them....This past spring he had a TO, Julius Jones, Demarcus Ware & Terry Glenn Helmet which all appeared to have sold....Not sure if he picked them up from GUE because they were all clearly 2006 helmets, and were not auctioned at Heritage Auctions...Anyway what is your opinion on the Ray Lewis helmet?

lund6771
08-07-2007, 01:53 PM
I came across that guy in the mid 90's...he sold me almost 20 jerseys of the cowboys that were not game used...I think I bought them for around $200 each, but they were tagged like a game used jersey...he had Southland's, Russell's...sewn on, screened on...etc...but all of them were not game used...I asked him back then if he could get any game used stuff and he said no...

what concerns me is that he has been selling Cowboys stuff for a long time and still has older stuff as well...difference now is that everything is game used...I would like to see some of his stuff with my own eyes....a trained eye can spot fake wear a mile away

aeneas01
08-07-2007, 06:00 PM
I came across that guy in the mid 90's...he sold me almost 20 jerseys of the cowboys that were not game used...I think I bought them for around $200 each, but they were tagged like a game used jersey...he had Southland's, Russell's...sewn on, screened on...etc...but all of them were not game used...I asked him back then if he could get any game used stuff and he said no...

what concerns me is that he has been selling Cowboys stuff for a long time and still has older stuff as well...difference now is that everything is game used...I would like to see some of his stuff with my own eyes....a trained eye can spot fake wear a mile away

well, this isn't very encouraging - to say the least....

and, as i've mentioned before, i'm not into "modern" helmets so i haven't taken a close look at his circa 2000 lids - but, fwiw, it does strike me that he seems to get his hands on an inordinate number of "game used" helmets once belonging to high-profile cowboys players...

my problem with this seller is:

1. his staubach helmet is not consistent with the helmet staubach wore in 1975 - he is aware of this but can offer no meaningful information regarding the helmet's provenance, offers only weak rebuttals and continues to insist that it's an authentic "game used" helmet once belonging to and worn by staubach. further, imo, this helmet appears to be intentionally doctored in an effort to match staubach's circa 1970-1972 helmet.

2. his "game used" drew pearson is not at all consistent with what drew pearson actually wore. pearson wore a suspension helmet throught his career, not a cell helmet which is what dalcowbill is selling. yet, again, he is aware of this and can offer no meaningful information regarding the helmet's provenance and offers only weak rebuttals while continuing to insist that it's an authentic "game used" helmet once belonging to and worn by pearson.

3. he once listed a vintage, authentic game used cowboys on ebay which was previously sold at one of the major sports memorabilia auction houses. although this was an excellent, authentic game used helmet it had a large crack in it which was pointed out in the original auction through text and photos. when dalcowbill listed the helmet on ebay he did not mention the crack nor did he include, among the many photos he provided in his ad, a photo which showed this crack.

as far as the ray lewis helmet is concerned, the only opinion i have on it is that it's another example of a modern helmet that's very easy to replicate - knowing this, i'm not sure why someone would pay "game used" dollars for it unless the seller had a stellar reputation and history of delivering the real goods...

aeneas01
08-09-2007, 02:48 AM
guess no one was very interested in dropping $500 for a reproduction despite the seller claiming it was authentic - the auction has ended as it should have, quietly with no bids...

aeneas01
03-06-2008, 04:35 AM
dalcowbill has his "game used" staubach helmet back on ebay and this time it comes with a letter of authenticity from none other than staubach himself.

it seems that dalcowbill typed up a letter describing the helmet and had his buddy take it and the helmet to a signing where staubach was appearing . and, according to dalcowbill's ebay ad, not only did staubach sign the helmet but he also screached with glee 'this was my helmet!" and eagerly signed the letter of authenticity as well!

if staubach did indeed sign these items, i wonder if he was first informed that the helmet he was signing and authenticating was a 1975 riddell issue, an issue that came out 3 years after he had stopped wearing suspension helmets in favor of maxpro clearshells.

cohibasmoker
03-06-2008, 07:17 AM
Looks like the forum members beat me to the punch.

Off the subject, Richard thanks for your efforts in authicating my Steelers helmets. Along with Curtis at the Helemt Hut, I could not have done it without you guys.

Jim

mvandor
03-06-2008, 11:28 AM
dalcowbill has his "game used" staubach helmet back on ebay and this time it comes with a letter of authenticity from none other than staubach himself.

it seems that dalcowbill typed up a letter describing the helmet and had his buddy take it and the helmet to a signing where staubach was appearing . and, according to dalcowbill's ebay ad, not only did staubach sign the helmet but he also screached with glee 'this was my helmet!" and eagerly signed the letter of authenticity as well!

if staubach did indeed sign these items, i wonder if he was first informed that the helmet he was signing and authenticating was a 1975 riddell issue, an issue that came out 3 years after he had stopped wearing suspension helmets in favor of maxpro clearshells.

Certainly appears Staubach signed it. Assuming seller showed him evidence he obtained it from the Cowboys (which he may have) and the helmet LOOKED exactly like what Roger wore, he might have been accomodating or actually persuaded it was his. Doubt he'd have searched for a date stamp.

mvandor
03-07-2008, 06:09 PM
aeneas, I just noticed the photo he has of Roger in the listing appears to have the same bolts on the side as the helmet in question and the pic is from 1975. Could Staubach have worn both in 75 as other Getty 1975 images do show another helmet type...

aeneas01
03-09-2008, 06:06 AM
aeneas, I just noticed the photo he has of Roger in the listing appears to have the same bolts on the side as the helmet in question and the pic is from 1975. Could Staubach have worn both in 75 as other Getty 1975 images do show another helmet type...

getty got the date wrong on that photo (which isn't uncommon for news wire photos) - as i mentioned in my previous post, the getty photo dalcowbill included in his listing is not from the 1975 season. imo the photo is from the 1971 vikes/boys playoff game but it could also be from their 1970 regular season meeting in minnesota. fwiw, the cowboys played the vikes in minnesota with staubach at qb in 1970, 1971, 1975, 1977 & 1979.

as far as the vikes/boys 1975 playoff meeting is concerned, it's actually a pretty famous game given that the boys won it in dramatic fashion on a last second hail mary pass (staubach to pearson) - as a matter of fact you can do a video search for the game at youtube and clearly see staubach wearing his maxpro, not a suspension helmet.

here's a frame i captured from the 1975 vikes/boys playoff game - staubach is wearing his maxpro (i.e., the getty image date is wrong):

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/03.jpg

here's a link to the video with audio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQfyJBJoLQs

and here's a link to the video that shows a closeup of staubach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uncqf2sowIk

here's a shot of staubach the following week when the boys crushed my rams in the 1975 championship game - again, he's wearing his maxpro (which he had been wearing for 3 years):

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/01.jpg


as far as your question "Could Staubach have worn both in 75..." is concerned, i guess anything is possible - but in this case i would say the chances are extremely unlikely. why would staubach, a guy who battled concussions early in his career and who eventually was forced to retire because of their effects, swap out his well padded maxpro for the lesser padded suspension? why aren't there any photos in circulation of staubach wearing a suspension helmet after the 1972 season - photos that can be positively confirmed as accurate? the answer to these questions is simple imo - because staubach traded in his suspension helmet for good after the 1972 season.

and this brings us to an interesting crossroads - what is the value of an item that a player mistakenly identifies as his game worn item? what circumstances can lead a player to mistakenly identify a game used item?

fwiw i've contacted both staubach and prova about this helmet - staubach's "people" got right back to me (as did butkus' "people" when i questioned a suspicious butkus helmet that was recently listed at auction). staubach's "people" wrote:

"thank you for your information - we will check this out."

i'll let the forum know if they follow up. the prova people have not responded to my inquiry asking what exactly they authenticated - the helmet, the letter, staubach's signature, etc. - i also asked prova who wrote the letter. fwiw the helmet was already autographed when dalcowbill's friend took it to staubach - that is to say, staubach didn't sign it at the recent san jose show - he apparently just signed the letter. here is what prova's website says about this particular authentication...


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/PROVA.jpg

mvandor
03-09-2008, 10:21 AM
Amazing research. Thank you, I had missed the earlier comment about the photo date being wrong.

Definitely seems some players are misidentifying items as game used or misplacing their trust to be accomodating. I'm sure players pay little to NO attention to where the helmet date stamp is, or remember when they stopped wearing a style of helmet. Heck, Favre is a real killer as you assume he gets his jerseys and signs them and poses with them himself in some of the examples we've questioned. Well, I'm sure his people got them from the Packers on his behalf, makes you wonder if they slipped in some bad ones for him to sign and he didn't question them. That one's very odd.

If Jerry Rice makes a show near San Diego, I have a pair of game worn cleats Mears just authenticated for me I'd like him to sign as game used. Will be interesting if he will...

aeneas01
03-10-2008, 05:54 AM
jim, just noticed your post - i was more than happy to offer my dos centavos and am even happier that you found it helpful! that is a great steelers rk you have...


Definitely seems some players are misidentifying items as game used or misplacing their trust to be accomodating. I'm sure players pay little to NO attention to where the helmet date stamp is, or remember when they stopped wearing a style of helmet. Heck, Favre is a real killer as you assume he gets his jerseys and signs them and poses with them himself in some of the examples we've questioned. Well, I'm sure his people got them from the Packers on his behalf, makes you wonder if they slipped in some bad ones for him to sign and he didn't question them. That one's very odd.

great post mvandor, especially the part where you mention a player "misplacing their trust to be accommodating" - i have to believe that was the case with the staubach lid.

mvandor
03-10-2008, 10:35 AM
aeneas, would appreciate your reply to question at http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=14905

aeneas01
03-10-2008, 05:42 PM
aeneas, would appreciate your reply to question at http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=14905

fwiw, done!