Game Used Bart Starr Lid?

[aeneas01]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Bart-Starr-Game-Used-Green-Bay-Packers-Helmet-Signed_W0QQitemZ280141049443QQihZ018QQcategoryZ868 28QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[mvandor]

Seen it; your comments? Seems like the shortened torn up front stripes might be photo matchable.

[gwh11]

I do not believe Starr wore this helmet in game action. I went through the Packers video highlights of the 1971 season, and checked the official Packers '72 yearbook as well as the '72 Sports Focus yearbook (both of which feature many photos from the '71 season, of course) looking at all Bart Starr images. He only appeared in the last four games of the season, and wore his customary single-bar facemask. In addition, a 1971 Packers helmet should have the player's number stenciled on the back.
Guy

[aeneas01]

I do not believe Starr wore this helmet in game action. I went through the Packers video highlights of the 1971 season, and checked the official Packers '72 yearbook as well as the '72 Sports Focus yearbook (both of which feature many photos from the '71 season, of course) looking at all Bart Starr images. He only appeared in the last four games of the season, and wore his customary single-bar facemask. In addition, a 1971 Packers helmet should have the player's number stenciled on the back.
Guy

i agree - there are a few details about this helmet that wouldn't exactly leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling if i were the buyer. for example the lack of numbers on the back, as you mentioned, although i believe the packers had replaced their classic military stenciling with decals by 1971.

as far as as the shortened stripes are concerned, this is most likely the result of using a wildcat bumper, which starr did use for at least one game in 1971. rather than remove the wildcat bumper to replace worn stripes, the equipment manager probably just ran the stripes to the top of the bumper - or ran them long enough to tuck under the bumper.

one thing i do find very interesting about this lid is that it's a "true" wildcat suspension helmet - interesting because, as far as i know, riddell didn't start producing these until 1973. a "true" wildcat suspension helmet doesn't have a leather sweatband covering the front section of the crown webbing nor is it equipped with a rubber nose snubber because the wildcat bumper serves both functions.

the first picture shows the listed "starr" helmet - the red circle indicates the lack of a rubber nose snubber and the other red area indicates the lack of a leather sweatband covering the front section of the crown webbing.

the second photo shows a classic suspension helmet with both the leather sweatband attached to the front of the crown webbing and the rubber nose snubber.

the third photo shows a "true" wildcat suspension helmet with the wildcat bumper in place and no leather sweatband on the webbing.

of course, given the ingenuity of equipment managers, it's not uncommon to see variations - for example, it's not uncommon to see a wildcat bumper on a suspension helmet that has a leather sweatband attached to the suspension webbing...

i've asked the seller for the helmet's interior date stamp - this information would answer some questions. as of yet, i haven't received a response...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/bs1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/bs3.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/bs2.jpg

[aeneas01]

apparently the seller of the "starr" helmet has received more than a few emails questioning the helmet's autenticity - or perhaps a forum member has pointed the seller to this thread. whatever the case, the seller has added the following to the item description...

----------------------

On Aug-08-07 at 09:37:34 PDT, seller added the following information:

I have received emails from a Ebayer who believes this helmet is not authentic. I do not wish to defraud anyone. I do not personally know this Ebayer or if his conclusions have any valididy, but if when you inspect the photos of the helmet that I've provided and don't believe the helmet to be authentic, do not bid on it. But, if you are like me and perfer to believe Bart Starr (who I believe is one of the most honest Christians who ever played the game) who inscribed the year and that it was his final season as a player on the helmet. What would be Mr. Starr reason for inscribing this helmet in this fashion for a charity auction if it were not true? Again, please do not bid if you have any reservations, I have a spotless record on Ebay and have no intentions on defrauding anyone.

----------------------

for the record, i've contacted the seller on three separate occasions during the last few days with the same simple question: what does the manufacturer's date stamp, located inside of the helmet above the earhole, indicate? and for the record, the seller has chosen not reply despite the fact, given the above quotation, that he/she has obviously been reading emails...

further, given that the seller refuses to answer my simple question (because of obvious reasons imo), i find it ironic and rather deplorable that he/she would have the audacity to bring up starr's christianity in such a self-serving manner.

anyway, here's a photo of the type of date stamp that should be present on the inside of the seller's helmet (a post-1969 riddell tk). this photo is from a riddell tk helmet manufactured in 1973 - needless to say, if the date stamp on the seller's helmet is 1972 or later it would be rather difficult to explain how starr's could have worn it in 1971, his final season...


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/date.jpg

[aeneas01]

fwiw - my email exchange with the seller spanning the last week; the seller who likes to state: "... I do not wish to defraud anyone."

me:

great helmet - i'm sure you've been getting quite a few questions. i'm wondering if you could you please let me know what the date stamp on the helmet indicates - it can be found by looking inside of the helmet, above one of the ear holes. it's a round, embossed circle about the size of a quarter - it has the numbers 1-12 forming the circle with a large number in the center. kinda looks like a clock. thanks very much.

seller:

no response

me:

hello again: was wondering if you received my last email regarding the manufacturer date of the helmet - when you get a moment could you please let me know what the date stamp (date clock) reads?

seller:

no response

me:

any information regarding the date stamp would be appreciated.

seller:

no response but edits ebay listing description by adding that she doesn't want to defraud anyone, has been contacted by another ebayer that has questioned the helmets authenticity, points to starr's christianity and requests that interested parties not bid if harboring any reservations.

me:

hello: first, it's my hope that you were not referring to me in your edited item description given that i don't believe i ever stated that your helmet wasn't authentic. second, i thought your amendment was very well done and well stated.

i remain very interested in your helmet and, as i've mentioned several times in my previous emails, am very interested in knowing what the date stamp of your helmet is - can you please provide me with this information?

seller:

no response:

me:

hello again: is there a reason why you have chosen not to respond to my question regarding the helmet's date stamp? is it because the date stamp indicates a manufacturing date later than 1971, starr's final season?

and to answer the question you posed in your listing - there are many perfectly honest reasons why bart starr might have signed "1971 final season" on a helmet he didn't wear (or for that matter a jersey or football) - for example, if a fan had asked him to sign it in such a manner. the bottom line is that you have a very nice piece of authentic football memorabilia (authentic vintage green bay packers helmet) which has been signed by one of football's all-time greats - this alone would make your item very valuable.

as such, if your helmet has a manufacturer date later than 1971 i think you should mention this in your listing - it's the only honest thing to do.

seller:

Sorry I haven't replied sooner. Because ther is so much controversy over this helmet I had it looked at by two different memorabilia dealers, the first one said that it was indeed a game used Packer helmet but it was from 1975, he also said that the autograph was genuine and estimated the value between $3000 and $5000. The second said that he believed it to be a genuine 1971 helmet based on thhe sticker size, the #15 on the inside of the helmet and the autograph which he also said was genuine and estimated the value between $5000 and $10000. I do not wish to defraud anyone, you decide which you wish to believe and bid or don't bid accordingly.

me:

thank you for finally responding but you still didn't answer my simple question: what does the manufacturer's date stamp found on the interior of your helmet, above the earhole, indicate? is there any particular reason why you haven't, or don't want to, answer this question?

here is an example of what a date stamp looks like:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/date.jpg

once again, would you please be kind enough to let me know what the date stamp on your helmet indicates?

seller:

no response - it's been 3 days...

[mvandor]

Anyone else disagree with the value assessments seller cites? Even if it's a 75 legit Packer helmet signed by Starr - with an incorrect citation given the true date - my feeling is that the easily provable falsehood of the Starr reference to his 71 season REDUCES value, not enhances same.

[aeneas01]

Anyone else disagree with the value assessments seller cites? Even if it's a 75 legit Packer helmet signed by Starr - with an incorrect citation given the true date - my feeling is that the easily provable falsehood of the Starr reference to his 71 season REDUCES value, not enhances same.

what never ceases to amaze me is the apparently large number of collectors, dealers and auction houses that don't seem to be aware of date stamps inside of helmets - for example, mastro was genuinely surprised when i asked them to check the date stamp in the butkus helmet. so much so that upon discovering it and discovering that it jived so well with their claims, they edited their listing in order to trumpet the fact.

as far as the the "starr" helmet is concerned, i think it's pretty clear that the date stamp doesn't jive with starr's final season - if it did, the seller would have done exactly what mastro did and used the information as a major selling point. further, if the date stamp doesn't jive then there are two things that strike me as quite apparent: 1. the seller is obviously not very honest and knows that revealing the real date would queer a big deal and 2. the number "15" written in the helmet was put there in order to misrepresent the item.

fwiw, i would suspect that an authentic game used starr helmet would go for around $25k-$35k while a vintage authentic game used packers helmet with starr's sig would fetch around $2k-$3k.

[mvandor]

fwiw, i would suspect that an authentic game used starr helmet would go for around $25k-$35k while a vintage authentic game used packers helmet with starr's sig would fetch around $2k-$3k.
Ah, but a Starr helmet with a misrepresentation in the inscription? To a knowing collector? Less I would think.

[mvandor]

Out of principle, I emailed seller asking about the date stamp as well.:D

Doesn't look like it'll break the reserve and seller's dreams of cashing in a big payday with their misdirection effort.

[mvandor]

Seller's reply (same story aeneas got):

I have had the helmet looked at by two dealers, the first one said that it was definately a Packers game used helmet but said the manufacturer's stamp says its from 1975. He said the autograph is authentic and said its value was between $3000 and $5000. The second one said it was a genuine Bart Starr gameused helmet from 1971 basing this on the size of the G stickers, the 15 on the inside of the helmet and the authentic inscription. he valued the helmet between $5000 and $10000. Again, I do not wish to defraud anyone, you decide what you believe its worth and bid accordingly. Thanks and good luck if you choose to bid. - breeziegirl
My reply to the above:

Clearly if the date stamp is 1975, while this could very well be a legit game helmet from the Packers, legitimately signed by Starr, it is 100% certain that it in fact is NOT one he ever wore, regardless of the inscription. To be honest, you really should include this info on the listing.

[aeneas01]

"Ah, but a Starr helmet with a misrepresentation in the inscription? To a knowing collector? Less I would think." - mvandor

i don't believe there exists a "misrepresentation in the inscription" - the misrepresentation is the claim by the seller that this helmet belonged to starr and was worn by him during his final season. remove the "15" inside of the helmet and consign it for what it is (a rare, authentic, vintage gamer with starr's sig) and i would suspect it would fetch about what i mentioned - heck, it would probably be issued a coa...

"Out of principle, I emailed seller asking about the date stamp as well. Doesn't look like it'll break the reserve and seller's dreams of cashing in a big payday with their misdirection effort." - mvandor

i'm glad you did that! :)

"Seller's reply (same story aeneas got): I have had the helmet looked at by two dealers, the first one said that it was definately a Packers game used helmet but said the manufacturer's stamp says its from 1975. He said the autograph is authentic and said its value was between $3000 and $5000. The second one said it was a genuine Bart Starr gameused helmet from 1971 basing this on the size of the G stickers, the 15 on the inside of the helmet and the authentic inscription. he valued the helmet between $5000 and $10000. Again, I do not wish to defraud anyone, you decide what you believe its worth and bid accordingly. Thanks and good luck if you choose to bid. - breeziegirl" - mvandor

actually mvandor, this isn't the same story i got! the seller never did admit to me what the date stamp indicated - only that one "dealer" said it was from 1975. but from the note you received it's evident that the lid is in fact date stamped 1975 - which imo means that it's also evident, contrary to her claims, that the seller's does in fact wish to defraud someone. good work!

btw, good luck to the buyer who wants a refund after discovering the 1975 date - only money orders or cashier's checks accepted...

[kingjammy24]

aeneas,

you seem to enjoy the big-money helmets. what did you think of the gale sayers that GFC recently sold for $22,500?
http://www.greyflannel.com/sales_main_Detail.php?picpage=2&updateID=2552

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3181/galedy3.jpg
rudy.

[mvandor]

"Ah, but a Starr helmet with a misrepresentation in the inscription? To a knowing collector? Less I would think." - mvandor

i don't believe there exists a "misrepresentation in the inscription"

Don't understand your reaching that conclusion. Starr's inscription CLEARLY infers and represents the helmet to be something it is not, based on the date stamp. To me, that cheapens it. I would find it more collector worthy actually without that inscription to be honest. Then it would stand as what it is, or could be at best - a 75 Packers gamer signed by Starr.

[aeneas01]

Don't understand your reaching that conclusion. Starr's inscription CLEARLY infers and represents the helmet to be something it is not, based on the date stamp. To me, that cheapens it. I would find it more collector worthy actually without that inscription to be honest. Then it would stand as what it is, or could be at best - a 75 Packers gamer signed by Starr.

starr didn't write "my helmet from the '71 season" or "my helmet from my final year" - he simply signed a piece of equipment indicating a landmark event in his career, 1971 his final year. for example, i equate this to say earl campbell signing a texas helmet "earl campbell 1977 heisman trophy season" - something which i wouldn't find to be misleading. like the starr helmet, i would simply think campbell was indicating a landmark event in his career - most likely per the request of a fan. consequently i guess we're just going to have to, as they say, agree to disagree.

btw, the starr helmet didn't even reach $1k - i wonder if the seller will give it another go, perhaps with a more honest description...

[aeneas01]

aeneas, you seem to enjoy the big-money helmets. what did you think of the gale sayers that GFC recently sold for $22,500? rudy.

hey kj24, thanks very much for pointing me to that lid - i didn't know gf had a "store" section as well...

as a collector of older lids, i really have a soft spot for vintage wilson and rawlings helmets (and clear shell macgregors) because they are such classics and because, generally speaking, teams that sported them were teams that supported their local manufacturer (wilson/bears, rawlings/cards, etc.) - imo nothing says chicago bears more than a classic, vintage wilson lid.

anyway, as far as this lid is concerned, i'm not very impressed - at all, given the following:

1. it strikes me as awfully pristine. the exterior shell does not look at all like it was exposed to the sort of punishing hits a hall of famer like sayers certainly endured. and the interior does not look at all like it has weathered the ugly dampness and weather conditions of soldier field. further, the nylon facemask also appears to have never seen action.

2. unlike riddell, wilson manufactured their helmets using different colored plastics in the '60s - in other words, teams did not have to purchase white helmets from wilson and paint them the team colors which was often the case with teams that purchased their lids from riddell during this era. consequently, there would have been no reason for the bears to have purchased white helmets from wilson - but the helmet sold at gf is obviously a white impregenated shell that has been painted chicago blue.

3. the gf "sayers" helmet appears to be a much newer wilson version than what sayers would have worn during the 1-2 years he sported this model early in his career. i would guess that the gf "sayers" helmet is circa 1972-1975. as this particular wilson helmet evolved, screws replaced some of the rivets which held the interior padding in place.

4. while they're not exactly growing on trees, it's not very difficult to find a wilson f2000 listed on ebay from time to time; especially white ones. i have around a dozen, even a couple that are impregnated dark navy blue - hmmm...

5. imo this lid is definitely a fake - although i do think it's worth mentioning that whoever put this lid together was at least on the ball enough to add additional chinstrap snaps to helmet, located above the facemask snaps, which is consistent with sayers's helmet. and, fwiw, sayers only wore this model for a year early in his career...

here's a a photo of sayers wearing this type of wilson early in his career - it's easy to see the additional facemask snap...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/00-1.jpg


here's a classic game used bears helmet that sold at auction a few years back - it's the same model sayers wore, note the front, smaller rivets instead of screws and notice the wear to the interior padding. it even has the same classic leather wilson chinstrap that sayers wore when he wore this model...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/04-4.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/03-3.jpg

here's another classic game worn bears helmet from that era, albeit a different wilson model - compare the wear to what sold at gf...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/06-2.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/05-1.jpg

[mvandor]

It's back, with a pretty honest description:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Green-Bay-Packers-game-used-Bart-Starr-signed-helmet_W0QQitemZ330168722649QQihZ014QQcategoryZ868 28QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[aeneas01]

It's back, with a pretty honest description:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Green-Bay-Packers-game-used-Bart-Starr-signed-helmet_W0QQitemZ330168722649QQihZ014QQcategoryZ868 28QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

beat me to it my friend! i just noticed that it was relisted as well but, alas, i really didn't find the new ad any more honest than the first go around...

why? because the sellers are still trying to blur (even literally) information regarding the helmet in an effort to imply that no one really knows for sure if the helmet was or was not worn by starr - that it could just as easily be an authentic starr gamer as it could an authentic packers helmet from a later period.

the bottom line is that the helmet has a manufacturer's date stamp of 1975 (a fact that the seller continually refused to provide me with the first time around) which means one thing and one thing only: that the helmet was made in 1975, 4 years after starr retired. the fact that "some dealers" didn't know enough about vintage helmets to look for such a date stamp in the first place and therefore arrived at wrong conclusions based on decal shapes, etc. doesn't change that fact - nor, as the seller implies, does the opinion of these errant "dealers" lend weight to the possibility that this was starr's lid. further, i also find it particularly dishonest that the sellers chose to include such a poor photo of the date stamp in the ebay ad - dishonest and very intentional.

if the sellers were truly interested in honesty they could have simply stated:

"for sale is a vintage, authentic green bay packers helmet bearing bart starr's autograph. i previously listed this item as a game used bart starr helmet based on incorrect information i had received. but now that i know the helmet was manufactured in 1975 (please see photo of manufacturer's date stamp) it is obvious that it could not have possibly been worn by bart starr. nonetheless, it is a wonderful vintage packers helmet autographed by one of the packers alltime greats - bart starr."

but i think it's pretty clear why the sellers wouldn't be too interested in doing something this honest... at least they didn't bring christianity into it again...

[aeneas01]

i especially like this line in the ad:

"Its either a 1975 Packers game used helmet that Bart Starr mistakenly signed as his from his final year or his actual helmet from 1971 signed by Starr."

again, how could this helmet possibly be "his actual helmet from 1971" if it was made in 1975, 4 years after he retired? or, better stated, how could the sellers have the temerity to suggest that even though the helmet was manufactured in 1975, it could have been worn by starr in 1971?

and why would starr signing an old helmet "1971 my final season" constitute a "mistake" on starr's part? i'll answer that - it wouldn't of course...

[mvandor]

Well, at least give the guy credit for even bringing your observations up at all to cast doubt on the helmet. Your typical crook certainly would not do that.

[aeneas01]

...Your typical crook certainly would not do that.

if you want to set the bar this low then, yes, i suppose i can see where one might want to give the seller some credit - but only if you set the bar this low.

fwiw i contacted the seller - he told me that the blurry date stamp photo he included was not intentional and that he would replace it - it's been a couple of days and no change yet. i also asked him, given that he is so sure the helmet could have belonged to starr, if he would provide a refund if i sent it to riddell for inspection and was told that there was no way it could have been worn in 1971. he said he would not - go figure...

[mvandor]

if you want to set the bar this low then, yes, i suppose i can see where one might want to give the seller some credit - but only if you set the bar this low.

fwiw i contacted the seller - he told me that the blurry date stamp photo he included was not intentional and that he would replace it - it's been a couple of days and no change yet. i also asked him, given that he is so sure the helmet could have belonged to starr, if he would provide a refund if i sent it to riddell for inspection and was told that there was no way it could have been worn in 1971. he said he would not - go figure...
Shades of ray my riend, shades of gray. ;)

[mvandor]

Should read "Shades of gray", keyboard probs.

Man this board could use an edit function...