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4 Attachment(s)
Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mchmaj
guess what !? i have taken down my white flag and show you MY PROOF !
i met a new friend that has largest bills game jerseys collection....
he sent me attachment of pictures from 1994 MNF broncos and bills game, the BILLS worn throwback jerseys and i have PROOF that bills didnt wear the style that woodfern is trying to sell, WOODFERN check it out, maybe next time do your homework ?? and yes the jerseys came BLANKS and it was sold orignially from a guy name AL in FLORIDA then it has been handed to different buyers
heres pictures, it was took by my friend personally in the game in 1994 MNF
jetsfan, 3 people called me with my pocket of red aces and the flop is ace, ace, and 3 spade, i have won 4 of the kind :)my point of this texas holdem , once your GUTS telling u something fishy about the kelly jersey , FOLLOW YOUR GUTS !!!
i forgot to add pictures
here they are.....
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
the stripes on the sleeves are different.
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Marcus, I Knew I Hadn`t Heard The Last Of You On This Jersey. One Step Ahead Of You. After Further Review, It Has Been Determined That The Jersey Is Have Is Certainly Not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Game Worn And That It Appears A Mistake Was Made By Grey Flannel And Certainly By Me. Got That Marcus! I Have Come Across A Picture Of A Throwback Card Of Kelly Wearing The Blue Bills Throwback From That Game And Like In The Pictures From Your "new" Friend, It Shows The Same Descrepency With The Sleeve Stripping, Also The Sleeves Appear To Be Shorter. If There`s One Thing I`ve Learned, Is That Anyone Including Myself Who Bids On A Star Player From A Grey Flannel Auction Should Do Their Homework, And To Save Themselves From Being Futher Ridiculed By People Like You. Mistakes Are Made And I`m Sure You`ve Made Some Too. I Certainly Hope This Is The Last Time I Have To Post Anything To Defend Myself From, But, I`m Sure I Haven`t Heared The Last Of You.
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Excuse Me. Heard From You.
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Man, the english language and grammar in general took a real beating in this thread. Wood, why in the world do you capitalize each word, man? T'ain't right and it's hard to read.
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
At this point, I think that everyone can agree that the jersey Kelly wore in the game does not match the sleeve stripes on WOODFERN's jersey. However, everything else looks to be correct on WOODFERN's jersey - number font, name-on-back, tail tagging, etc. With everything else appearing to be correct, perhaps the sleeves on the Kelly jersey (and other Bills players such as #81 in the photo) may have been shortened and tailored below the first group of stripes.
Marcus, since you were able to come up with some photos of Kelly from that game, can you or your friend provide some additional sideline shots or other action photos from the game that show numerous other Bills players. I am curious to see if anyone is wearing the full sleeves that include both sets of stripes (as seen on WOODFERN's jersey).
Thanks!
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
G1X
At this point, I think that everyone can agree that the jersey Kelly wore in the game does not match the sleeve stripes on WOODFERN's jersey. However, everything else looks to be correct on WOODFERN's jersey - number font, name-on-back, tail tagging, etc. With everything else appearing to be correct, perhaps the sleeves on the Kelly jersey (and other Bills players such as #81 in the photo) may have been shortened and tailored below the first group of stripes.
Marcus, since you were able to come up with some photos of Kelly from that game, can you or your friend provide some additional sideline shots or other action photos from the game that show numerous other Bills players. I am curious to see if
anyone is wearing the full sleeves that include
both sets of stripes (as seen on WOODFERN's jersey).
Thanks!
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
the sleeves are NOT TAILORED ... that is what they worn during MNF against broncos, you still can see if the sleeves have been tailored, it still DOES NOT MATCH THE SLEEVES stripes with woodfern kelly jersey. you also can see the #81 left sleeve are tucked in while right sleeve is open and its regular sleeve as its not tailored....
i can ask for more pictures to give more proofs
thanks
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
i forgot to add that my friend told me that the 1994 MNF game the bills worn darker blue jersey as throwback , its darker blue than the jersey that woodfern have.. he has kelly jersey in ROYAL BLUE while the bills worn close to navy blue jersey. you can see the pictures in the game and the pictures of woodfery(his pictures are bad but you can see royal blue color jersey very clear...) now the stripes, the red line is more thicker on woodfern jersey while the red line is more slim on the sleeves in the game photos. so if tailored, it makes no different :)
thanks again
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4 Attachment(s)
Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Marcus,
Maybe it's just me, but I am not seeing any difference in the thickness of the red stripes between WOODFERN's jersey and the game photos. In my humble opinion, the only difference in the jerseys is that WOODFERN's has two sets of the 3-stripe pattern while Kelly and #81 in the game photos only have one set of the 3-stripe pattern on their jerseys. That is the reason I was curious if perhaps some of the Bills had their sleeves tailored, and if any other Bills player can be seen wearing a jersey with both sets of the 3-stripe pattern.
Regarding the concern with the shade of blue, trying to match an exact color shade in various photographs can be deceiving depending on the lighting (day game vs night game, cloudy day vs sunny day, etc.), whether a flash was used, camera settings, method of developing the photos, printing methodology, etc. WOODFERN's photos are at least third generation photos, and the original photos were taken in a room where a flash was most likely used. That is an extremely different lighting setting as compared to a night game under lights bright enough for a color television broadcast.
Having spent many hours in a dark room developing photographs, I can state as fact that shades will not always look exactly the same depending on a variety of the above mentioned factors. Anyone who has taken a photo indoors with a flash understands that colors can be distorted. There are examples seen in newspapers and on the internet every day where the jerseys of a team can appear to be a different shade based on the lighting, angle of the photo, and other variable conditions as previously mentioned. Below is a classic example of two photos of the same jersey where it appears to be a different color shade because of lighting and other factors. This is extremely important to know when researching jerseys.
But enough of that as I don't think that explaining the science of photography is answering my question. Again, please see if your friend has any other photos where we can see the entire Bills sideline. I am curious to know from an educational standpoint if any Bills player can be seen wearing a jersey with both sets of sleeve stripes.
Thanks!
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
the answer is right there in the pictures....
you can see the guy next to kelly, and he was wearing sideline proline bills jacket. I am sure you can see its ROYAL BLUE ! and the jersey doesnt show any hint of royal blue color. whats more, study kellys game socks and you will see the different colors of blue. G1X, i am sorry your point is not valid...you need to study the this pictures more ...the redskins retro 70th anniv jersey pictures is FAR DIFFERENT than what i am trying to bring the point about kelly darker jersey VS woodfern royal blue kelly jersey. your two redskins pictures are MUCH THE SAME colors !
YES, i am working on getting more scans of diff players wearing same sleeves pictures....sidenote, he went to the game himself and he explained how much different between darker blue kelly jersey vs woodfern royal blue kelly jersey. i did sent him pictures of woodern kelly jersey and he was hoping i DIDNT buy it ...
thanks
marcus
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4 Attachment(s)
Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Marcus,
To say that my point is not valid is puzzling, especially after I gave a brief explanation of the many various reasons why shading can look different in photos. Are you saying that the two 'Skins photos are much the same color? A lot of folks, including myself, would not agree with you on that point.
Look closely at this photo from the Bills 1994 throwback game. It looks very close to the color of WOODFERN's jersey in my humble opinion. The jersey in this picture appears to be a lighter shade than the photos you provided.
http://i11.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/dc/10/ab89_1.JPG
We can agree to disagree about color hues all night long. I felt that I gave a very logical explanation of color variations in photos based on my experiences in the world of photography, plus I provided a valid photo example from my jersey collection. I think that I have further validated my point with the above photo from the 1994 throwback game. To even further substantiate my point, observe the below example of a Bills game-worn jersey of Jake Arians that is in my collection. Quite amazing how it appears to be an entirely different shade of blue based on the lighting used to photograph the jersey. I won't continue to belabor the point as I am confident that most readers understand this concept and realize that colors can be somewhat deceiving in photographs
I continue to believe that WOODFERN's jersey is correct other than for the second section of sleeve stripes, and if I see one Bills player from that game wearing both sections of the 3-stripe design, then I will feel comfortable that WOODFERN's jersey has a strong possibility of being a team-issued jersey. Most important to note is the way the stripe pattern seems to closely match on the underside of the sleeves (on the section of stripes closest to the shoulders on the WOODFERN jersey when compared to the above game photo).
But my question still has not been answered at this point. I want to know for educational purposes if any Bills player can be seen with the identical sleeve stripe design that is seen on WOODFERN's jersey. That is why I am requesting additional photos of the game so that I can see as many players as possible.
Any input from other Bills collectors or collectors with knowledge of this particular "throwback" style would be most appreciated.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
G1X
I continue to believe that WOODFERN's jersey is correct other than for the second section of sleeve stripes, and if I see one Bills player from that game wearing both sections of the 3-stripe design, then I will feel comfortable that WOODFERN's jersey has a strong possibility of being a team-issued jersey. Most important to note is the way the stripe pattern seems to closely match on the underside of the sleeves (on the section of stripes closest to the shoulders on the WOODFERN jersey when compared to the above game photo).
Mark, I have multiple 1994 NY Jets game worn throwbacks in my collection - both the white worn for one game and the green worn for two games. I have an extensive Jets photo data base to include many a 1994 throwback pic and I have a 1994 throwback game on DVD so I think I can speak definitively on the 1994 Jets throwbacks. The NY Jets had MULTIPLE completely disimilar sleeve stripe styles for their 94 throwbacks depending on the player and customization. Some sleeve stripes were screened others were not, some were thick and others were not! With the Jets throwbacks, a backup jersey of a particular could easily have varied in sleeve stripe design from the game jersey of the same player. And as it applies to color hue, the 1994 Jets green throwbacks vary slightly as well. If you would like photographic evidence of such feel free to e-mail me Mark and I'll send along some good stuff for you. God Bless America!
Matthew
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Give it up guys... he'll never admit that he might be wrong... even a little bit.
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
toddhead
Give it up guys... he'll never admit that he might be wrong... even a little bit.
Huh? I am not trying to prove anybody wrong on anything. I have no idea about Bills jerseys nor do I care about Bills jerseys...I specialize in Jets. I was only providing Mark (or any other football collector in general) with specifics that he might find useful in the future as it pertains to 1994 NY Jets throwbacks. My previous post has nothing to do with any of the other posters or their information, questions, or comments.
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Matthew,
Thanks so much for the information. Your point about the Jets jerseys is precisely the point that I am trying to relate as being a possibility with the Bills throwback jerseys worn in 1994.
One-game styles can be very difficult to research and authenticate when they don't end up in the collecting community, so it is best to dig out as many documented facts as possible, especially while the discussion is "fresh" on the table in this Forum.
My apologies to all if the science of photography, color, and lighting (and other side issues) seem to have derailed the discussion, but I felt that it was imperative to delve into those issues as they are very relevant due to some of the claims being made in this post.
At this point, I am appealing to anyone in the Forum to provide photos or review video of the Bills-Broncos 1994 throwback game (Monday Night Game of 9/26/94) to see if the Bills had variations in their sleeve stripes.
Thanks to everyone who has assisted thus far.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
G1X
At this point, I am appealing to anyone in the Forum to provide photos or review video of the Bills-Broncos 1994 throwback game (Monday Night Game of 9/26/94) to see if the Bills had variations in their sleeve stripes.
No prob Mark. Was that the only game the Bills wore the dark throwbacks? The Jets wore their green throwbacks twice - once at Miami and then later in the season at home vs. the Pats. They wore their white throwbacks only once, a week 4 Sunday nite home loss to the Bears. The anamolies/differences amongst the Jets throwbacks are vast. Some of the taller players (mostly lineman) had hybrid jerseys...the throwbacks with regular 1994 jersey bottoms sewn to the tail for extra length! Shoulder yolks differed, sleeve stripe style differed (as discussed earlier), color variations existed, etc...and that isn't taking into consideration backup jerseys which could have had different traits/customizations than the game jersey for a particular player (possibly for anticipation of different weather conditions, etc...). Of course, I am a Jets junkie and as mentioned have the throwback games on DVD and many photos from the games.
On the topic of anomolies, we are often quick to dismiss a jersey/helmet that doesn't match our immediate knowledge base. In my experience with Jets items I have seen vintage game photos of a player without a helmet logo, a Jets player (from the 1994 season ironically) with a helmet logo upside down, I have a photo of Al Woodall wearing a funky jersey that was a number 16 turned into his number 18 using pieces of other numbers, I have a photo of a 1960's Jets player wearing a Jets jersey with black trim which every Jets collector/fan knows wasn't done until the 90's, I have a photo of Jets players in the same game with different number AND font styles, and lastly I once told a collector the Jets never ever used Rawlings as a equipment supplier. Then one day I was going through my extensive Jets video library and found one singal game in which Ken O'Brien was sporting a Rawlings helmet - go figure! The point is back in the day things were less "sterile" than they are today. When an equipment manager lacked something he'd make a trip to the local sporting goods store or even borrow something from a local HS or college. A lot of these anamolies are extremely difficult/impossible to photo match because the amount of photos from those past eras are not as plentiful as they are now. Now if we are talking about authentic game issued items (which I believe are much more rare from past eras as they are today as I believe if a player from the 60's or 70's had a jersey there is a high likelihood he wore that jersey at some point) it is even more impossible. If I see an anamoly with a Jets jersey that I am not familiar with I don't automatically rule it out. This is where networking withing your specific aspect of the hobby help - having friends and fellow longtime Jets fans/collectors to bounce things off of is imperative as is an extensive resource base. Now if I could ever have a sit down with Bill and Clay Hampton I'd be set :-)
Sorry to take a very entertaining and humorous thread and ruin but just thought maybe my experiences might assist or relate to others.
God Bless America,
Matthew
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Matthew,
Thanks for the input. My understanding is that the Bills wore their blue throwback jerseys only in the Monday Night Game against Denver.
As a Falcons, WFL, and durene collector, and having made a few bulk buys from teams over the years, I can relate well to the anomalies. The things that come out of a team's equipment room can be simply amazing. Sometimes there will be a few items that are so out of the norm that I will not list them for sale unless I can match them in photos or film.
One of my all-time favorite photos is a Sports Illustrated shot of the Miami Dolphins' defense during the Super Bowl of their undefeated season. Some players are wearing jerseys with sleeve stripes, some are wearing jerseys with no stripes. Some players are wearing orange belts, and some are wearing aqua belts. Everyone in the photo is wearing black shoes except for Nick Buoniconti who is wearing white shoes.
Things tend to be more consistent in the current era, but anomalies can still be found. For example, Jim Yackel recently had for sale a 2005 black Falcons jersey of Rod Coleman that did not have the NFL equipment shield in the neck. Some collectors will quickly run from a jersey without the shield. The Falcons only wore the black jerseys twice in 2005, and if any naysayer would have spent a few minutes searching Getty Images, they would have matched a photo of Coleman wearing a black jersey without the shield. They would have also found other photos of Coleman from 2005 in both his white and red jerseys where no shield can be seen.
Please send me an email when you have a moment as I have some Jets questions that you can probably answer.
Thanks!
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
if you guys want answers to every question concerning this game I would suggest to get a video of it
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
lund6771,
Thanks for the suggestion. I have made that appeal in this thread and asked a few folks offline without any success at this point. I was hoping that a Bills collector or fan in this Forum could help out.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
I'm not a Bills fan or collector, but I'll check at work tomorrow if that one is available and get back to you
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
lund6771,
Thanks so much!
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
I can get a video copy of this game...
petepeschel@qwest.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lund6771
if you guys want answers to every question concerning this game I would suggest to get a video of it
lund, as stated numerous times...I have no desire to have any questions answered about Buffalo Bills jerseys. I specialize in and only collect NY Jets. I was only relating my personal experiences with 1994 Jets throwbacks (and Jets jerseys as a whole) as maybe there is some crossover that might assist other types of collectors. Once again, my comments in this thread are not meant to prove anything right or wrong about Bills traits/customizations/variances/or anomalies because I have a very limited knowledge base and/or concern regarding Buffalo Bills equipment. My only hope was that maybe someone might find my personal experiences with NY Jets equipment helpful in some particular way.
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Jets...was speaking generally
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lund6771
Jets...was speaking generally
LOL, my bad lund...didn't mean to seem so tightly wound. I just need a Michelobe and all will be well :D
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
jets...lol...i'm having a mich golden lite as we speak
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
lund,
Thanks for tracking down a video of the game. I owe you a 6-pack of Michelobe Golden Lite for your efforts!
Please keep us posted.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Any further word on this topic?
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
i do not really undersatnd , i alrady gave the proof , i gave you guys few pictures of the DIFFERENT bills throwback jersey.... and you still yet want more proof ?? hows that ?
by the way i am working on getting more pictures and trust me, they all are same sleeves , why would you think linemen, linebacker, or defense line worn different sleeves ???
thanks !
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Marcus,
My last post was intended for lund6771 who was obtaining a video of the game. I saw the photos of two different Bills players you posted, but keep in mind that there are 45 players who dress out each week (46 counting the emergency QB). As most NFL football jersey collectors know, not every player on a team exactly matched on where their sleeve were hemmed during that era.
I am quite surprised that you are asking the question in your previous post why linemen, linebackers, or defensive backs would wear different sleeves. Refer to nyjetsfan14's previous post, observe any photos of the 49ers wearing their throwbacks in 1994, or better yet, check out your team's regular season jerseys from 1994. Go to Getty Images and look at image #50730340 as an excellent example. I hope this answers your question.
No one is saying that you are incorrect about the Bills not having a second set of stripes on their jerseys in the 1994 throwback game against the Broncos. However, experience and examples from other teams leads some of us to at least want to investigate the possibility that some of the Bills may have worn jerseys that contained both sets of stripes (similar to WOODFERN's jerseys). I would feel very foolish to go on record as saying "never" without at least exploring the possibility by thoroughly researching this issue. Until the video of the game is observed, I don't think that any of us who have participated in this discussion can state as 100% fact that every Bills player in that game did (or did not) have only one set of stripes on their jersey.
So, let's wait for the verdict on the video before we come to any conclusions. Fair enough?
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
yeah for sure it will be solved ASAP !
a friend of mine will send me an email more pictures of BILLS players wearing one stripe sleeves. and whats more he told me himself that they all worn one stripe sleeves but you guys need hardcore proof so i am getting pictures soon today !
thanks
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
At this point, I will wait for the verdict on the video before I come to any final conclusions for my own peace of mind.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
i dont care ! video tape of MNF game between bills and broncos means NOTHING !!! you will have hard time to see the sleeves because TV was not clear back then...
I HAVE 3 close up PICTURES that was took at the bills RICH STADIUM
you can see that the sleeves are different from each players, the loose sleeves got one stripe and the linemen, and linebackers worn TIGHTING BANDS SLEEVES THAT is ONE STRIPE SLEEVE.
the BILLS worn ONE STRIPE on sleeves so therefore the kelly jersey woodfrey sold is bad jersey
ACCEPT THE FACTS HERE that i was right at the whole time:)
thanks guys
marcus chmaj
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6 Attachment(s)
Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
i dont know why pictures didnt go through
here they are....
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Marcus,
Please tell us that you are not serious when you say that the video means nothing. That is perhaps the most embarrassing and assanine statement I have ever read in this Forum.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
what can u do with the video tape ??? the picture is blurry and you cannot see the sleeves clearly ...
IF YOU NEED VIDEO TAPE to find a player or name of player or numbers that players wears then it make sense .... BUT YOU NEED IT TO CHECK THE SLEEVES , TELL ME HOW !?
BUT now you dont need video tape because i already provided pictures.. thats why i said video tape means nothing now after i got the new pictures
smile !
have a super day !
marcus
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
do not get me wrong , everyone would need video tape to find something , but my point telling G1X that video tape of bills and broncos MNF means nothing because i found 3 pictures of bills wearing throwback jerseys with one stripe sleeve. i am helping G1X to save time and not to waste time looking at 1994 video tape:)
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Wow, just when you thought this thread was dead - it's baaaaack! I must admit, the more of chmaj and the less of us = better!
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
i am hoping this will be last one for today and let it go !
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Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question
Well if this is it what a run it was chmaj. The laughs, the smiles, the heartbeak, the tears...I'll miss it all LOL