LOLOLOL
at least we did learn something here :)
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LOLOLOL
at least we did learn something here :)
Marcus,
I've seen pictures of about 4 Bills. Of the 4 players, I noted that their sleeves appear to differ in the way they are hemmed/cut/tucked. That still leaves 42 players, so I will waste my time viewing the video.
Since many folks are able to discern sleeve stripes from grainy black & white coach's film taken from the top of the pressbox, I am sure that there will be no problem seeing if any Bills player had one or two sets of stripes in viewing the videos of the Monday Night telecast. I tend to trust what you are saying as the Bills are your team, but I would just like to be for certain before I go public with such a statement.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@veriuzon.net
HELP YOURSELF !
you refuse to accept that i was right after all
way to go
marcus
Marcus,
My intent is not to refuse to accept what you have said. I think that I have made myself painfully clear, and anyone reading my numerous, exhaustive posts, clearly understands my point. As I said in my last post, I tend to trust what you are saying as the Bills are your team
If you are taking all of this personally, my apologies as that is not my intent. Feel free to contact me offline if you continue have an issue as I don't think we are answering my question about the video by going around and around on the same issues.
I am hoping that the video proves beyond any further doubt that you are absolutely right, because it seems to be very important to you to be right.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
M, whatever your knowledge of Bills unis is, and it may be very substantial, it doesn't alter the fact that your people skills could use some work, my friend. Doesn't help you or the board population if you're abrasive and alienate others in making your points.
JMHO.
woodfrey got the jersey from GF,and someone sent it to GF . what i am trying to say that the jersey is originally from a guy in florida, sidenotes, he sold more than 1 kelly throwback jerseys....theres other blank kelly on back only without any numbers sold awhile ago on EBAY so whats ODD of 2 bills throwback kelly jersey with error TWO stripes on the sleeves....
The bills throwback jerseys have only one stripe sleeves with TWO STYLES that has one with screened on/painted stripes on the into loose/open sleeves and other one is the tighting band with dye colors of white red white that sewn attached to the sleeves.
the points you should look at, why would BILLS order the cloth tighting bands on the throwback jerseys ? in the past the bills worn screened/painted stripes on the sleeves, IF any players wanted to tighting their sleeves, THE BILLS reopened the screened/painted stripes on the sleeves, and added the elastic bands inside the sleeves to tight it up. BILLS practiced that for awhile
my point of that, what i think that YOU STILL THINK bills throwback jerseys have two stripes on the sleeves, am i correct ? okay, why would BILLS ordered the cloth elastic bands IF the sleeves have two stripes, the BILLS would have cut the sleeves off and reopen the sleeves and add the elastic band inside and showed only one stripe sleeves.
that what bills praticed for long time, you can look at 1990 bills team, they worn two stripes on sleeves. for example kelly cut off his sleeves to be loose sleeves and it was left only one stripe on the sleeves, some other cut off and tighting it up with elastic bands but into one stripe sleeves or two sleeves. some players left two stripes open/loose sleeves. I CAN SEE THAT THEY HAVE TAILORING SLEEVES. for the 1994 bills pictures i have provided doesnt show any tailoring sleeves.
I am historian so i study pictures and research them very well. i have primary and secondary sources that provide back up information to the jerseys i am collecting...
I am not sure if i was correct, GF got issues with their authenting the jerseys in the past ?? seem someone didnt do their homework ?
to be clear here, kelly jersey woodfrey is AUTHENTIC JERSEY, its not game nor issued jersey.
thank you
back from the dead. Was a good read!!!
This has turned into my new grail. Good to know there are a 'few' out there... even if they do have the wrong sleeves....
I've used this thread a few times over the years are reference. Parts are very helpful. I wish I was aware of the site over the years as there are some serious information issues - but whats in the past is in the past and we can leave it be. Just worth mentioning if someone else come along looking at this for reference.
What is odd to me is other teams seem pretty easy to acquire a 94 throwback.
The Bills on the other hand, SUPER tough. I've only ever come across a blue fina, white delvin ( incomplete ) and have found a picture of a white Fina that sold at auction. I wonder why these are so difficult to acquire? Odd. Did other teams offer them at retail? The Bills never sold them in the Bills store, or had a 'retail' authentic jersey like their normal white/blue champion did. It seems that any that got out there were still coming from someone one the equpt staff or someone of the sort.
The Fina/Devlin are all cuffed. That picture of the Reich makes it look as though the 2nd stripe is hemmed - tucked and fastened on the inside - BUT if I were to guess I'd guess they were manufactured with 1 stripe, OR because its SO LONG, the 2nd stripe was sewn under. Either way the previous owner of this Kelly said it came from a 'connect' in the locker room. The Fina came from CL and the seller said his father had a connect with the locker room as well. Both came from CL, but were 2 totally different people. Seems there were many 'connects' back then.
Where things get weird for me is this.... I'm not aware of these being sold at retail. I've seen a black box that had a Bills 35th logo on the front that was speculated might have contained a jersey.
Kelly generally wore size 42, but as he got older his size (94-96) jumped to a 44.
Here is what I think is weird. Kelly wore this jersey and to my understanding the jersey he ACTUALLY wore isnt in a collection. I've seen 1 blue in a collection thats autographed and framed.... that is a double stripe. There is one displayed in the HOF in Canton that claims to be 'game worn'.... that has a double stripe. I'd guess neither of those jerseys are the one pictured with a COA earlier in this thread - that is double striped.
Now, with white - the one Kelly wore in the game was single striped. Same idea as the Blue. Personally, I've only ever come across/seen the one that I acquired the other day and a picture on the back of a 2001 Donruss Throwback Threads card (claiming it was game worn etc and obviously wasnt) and this was double striped as well.
Heres the weird part IMO... Bills jerseys from 91-96 that are actually legit from the locker room equpt staff SHOULD and WILL have a number on the inside 100% polyester tag. This is done a certian way and its easy to tell what someone has tried to fake and whats legit. Its some sort of inventory that doesnt directly correspond with the game it was used in other than a low # will be easier to find earlier in the year.
This white Kelly, that the previous owner had for 20+ years framed is a double striped SIZE 46 and the inside tag says #16 in the correct fashion.
Now, I knew going into this that this wasnt the 'hero' jersey so to speak and it wasnt what was worn. I dont care because frankly as a Kelly collector I try and get as many 'feelers' out there as I can and after acquiring the Gamblers one - a blue or white throwback became my pipe dream and white whale/ holy grail. Used or unused, a tough get and not one I thought I'd EVER own.
That #16 though... it got me thinking.
Whats more likely? The Bills made a limited edition jersey that was made with double stripes to differentiate that was then autographed and sold - say 35? (pick a number, just using that in case that black box with the 35 logo was what they were sold in - think the same type of box you see the top of the line Nike football gloves sold it) OR when everything was done they had a couple blanks and had them made up in house as KELLY (with no regard to size, but at least getting the cut right - unlike some charity jerseys from this period where they used a cuffed micromesh blank for a KELLY).
That #16 is the curious part.
I feel like even if it was a limited edition thing I'd have seen more of these over the years rather than just the 5 (blue/white combined) not counting the actual gamers. But as these games took place in weeks 3 and 4, its a weird # for sure.
I guess it also depends the extend of the abilities the Bills had to number on site. I know back in the day blanks were shipped and a local sports store would apply numbers and letters/plates - but since these all the the Champion font - maybe the plates were all that was done in house (which makes sense because preseason and bubble players always had the old sand knit font nameplates rather than the Champion.
http://i.imgur.com/6fpqAPC.png
http://i.imgur.com/pCOBOl9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DTXWUPx.png
http://i.imgur.com/fBBuCGQ.png
http://i.imgur.com/LL8Q5ff.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/GEe7YS3.jpg
Mark, you were quite active in the 1st incarnation of this thread.
Have you since learned anything about this 94 throwbacks between now & then?
Have you seen anything similar with other teams?
Thanks for the help and time!
I did not pursue this issue any further to save my sanity :eek:
In all seriousness, I never received the video of the game, so my interest died on the vine at that point.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
ALWAYS LOOKING FOR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS
Gotcha lol!!!
Ya, things looked pretty intense. Not to start anything, but its scary how much incorrect Bills info there is on this site. When 1st starting 7 or 8 years ago I used the few threads where you guys got into it pretty religiously in regard to basing rules for purchases etc. Through all the nonsense, there was some good info that served as a good starting point. Over the years there have been many times I've encountered something that was just incorrect though. From the great recycling debate to this, to even finding pics of a 1987 game where a few players actually wore the overlapping style of the Giants. I'd have bet $$ Bills game collars from that era all came to a V rather than overlap. Not the case.
Anywho, any idea as to why some teams are pretty easy to obtain throwbacks for? Conversely, why are some so hard? He may very well be a member here, but I ran into a collector whos long game was obtaining a home and away from each team from the 94 throwbacks. The Bills was the 1 team he couldnt seem to find. As i mentioned, I've only ever owned 3 and none were obtained through traditional channels, but rather someone who was hooked up from the locker room.
Which, brings me full circle to wondering if these Kellys were just made in house with extras to give people or if they made XX amount of these for various purposes. I've never run into anyone who knows sadly, so it may remain a mystery forever
My understanding is that many teams let their players keep their throwback jerseys from 1994 and being so long ago I doubt many would have looked at them as investment opportunities. Some likely have them displayed but my guess would also be that many would either be in storage somewhere or were discarded long ago. You might eventually see them start trickling out in player consignments to auction houses.
That would make sense! Thanks for the thoughts. Its a shame other teams dont do what the Pats do. I know many 96-01 Bills jerseys are in tubs in storage that the a person associated with their alumni sells to make a few $$ here and there but I have no idea where the earlier ones are. They cant think very much of them though as 'something' was cleaned out last month and as a result a thrift store down the st (who seems to also get the dump when a coach or staff leaves) ended up with a bunch from the 80s ( had since been turned into practice jerseys so by no means the cream of the crop).
That said, I'm curious if each player was issued a gamer and a backup. There are multiple Kellys but the blue Fina I once owned was very clean and I had heard he had his in his collection. I get making multiples of a star player, but with respect to Fina... I cant see them running the presses with #70s. Interesting and probably correct reasoning why they dont tend to pop up.
Anyone noticed other teams whos throwbacks are incredibly hard to obtain?
Steelers 1994 throwbacks are extremely rare, have only seen two game worn. Have seen five or six backups/extras though. I did hear the players got both. Rod Woodson's gamer sold at auction if I'm not mistaken and his backup was at one time displayed in the Hall of Fame.
I am not a Bills collector and don't really have a whole lot of knowledge in general about their jerseys. With regards to the 1994 throwback jerseys, the only teams that I can speak clearly about are Atlanta, San Diego, New York Giants, San Francisco, and Detroit.
ATLANTA - I had a huge Falcons collection at one point before liquidating most of it a few years ago. Back in the spring of 1995, I was invited to visit the equipment room. I asked about the 1994 throwbacks, and the equipment manager told me that they were given to the players. The Falcons played the Chargers in the Hall of Fame game that summer, and both teams wore their throwbacks (Falcons wore red, the Chargers wore white).
Many years later, I obtained a red throwback jersey of an offensive lineman (#76-Zeno) who played in that game but was cut before the regular season. I still have that jersey in my collection. Other than the red throwback of running back Erric Pegram (#33) that has been on eBay for an eternity, I have never seen another Falcons throwback in the hobby other than a few team-issued white Jeff George jerseys. I had a white George at one point, but I knew it wasn't game worn as the end of the sleeves did not match the one he wore at Washington (the only game where they wore the white throwbacks). This leads me to the assumption that the Falcons probably had some extras made up for charity purposes. Interestingly, when I was on my visit in the locker room, I was shown a rack of white 1995 jerseys for the upcoming season. There was quite a few Jeff George jerseys on the rack.
SAN DIEGO - A few of San Diego's jerseys ended up with Football Heaven which was a game-used helmet and jersey dealer in the 1990s and 2000s. He mainly specialized in helmets, and he had a connection with the Chargers to obtain helmets and jerseys. I ended up with a white throwback of defensive back Darrien Gordon (#21) that I no longer have in my collection. Other than the ones that Football Heaven obtained, I have not seen any in the hobby other than the many Junior Seau jerseys and a few Natrone Means back in the day when he was a star (similar to all of the Brett Favre Packers and John Elway Broncos throwbacks floating around out there.)
NEW YORK GIANTS - A number of these got out into the hobby. They are fairly easy to find as I currently have 5 in my collection.
SAN FRANCISCO 49ers - A company called Man of Steal had a deal with the 49ers and made these available to collectors. (Others in this Forum can probably provide more information on this than me.) I went to the Super Bowl in Miami where the 49ers trounced the Chargers. There was a memorabilia show that weekend in conjunction with the game, and Man of Steal was set up at the show with racks of 49ers throwback jerseys. I never purchased one from them, but I later ended up with a few over the years (both colors) but they have long since departed from my collection.
DETROIT LIONS - The Lions jerseys were auctioned off BEFORE the Monday Night Game where they wore the jerseys for the first time. I believe that it was Jim Hawkins, a major memorabilia dealer in that era who had also been a sport writer covering the Tigers for the Detroit Free Pres, who ran that auction. It was kind of a strange way to conduct an auction, especially not knowing who would be dressed out for the game. Whoever won the Anthony Carter jersey (big star at the time) had the misfortune of ending up with a team-issued jersey as Carter was injured and did not play in the game. The Lions ended up suiting up in throwbacks later in the season (maybe on Thanksgiving - can't remember for sure) and it was always my understanding that they had to obtain a new set since the first set had been auctioned off. The Lions had team sales several times back in those days, and my understanding is that some of the throwbacks ended up in those sales. Mabe a Lions collector or someone from Detroit can chime in with the facts as I am working on fuzzy memories and hearsay at this point. I had a nice throwback of #83-Aubrey Mathews that I really liked but is long gone from my hands.
Other 1994 throwbacks I've had over the years include a red Chiefs, white Saints, and a white Jets. The Chiefs jersey is especially interesting. Wayne Otto of Pro-Am Sports made a huge bulk buy from the Chiefs around 10 years ago. In that batch was some throwback jerseys. I am not sure if Wayne was attuned to this as the throwbacks were only slightly different than the style worn in 1994 (throwbacks did not have the sleeve stripes/cuffs).
This was probably way more information than most of you care to know. If you got this far, see below for photos of a few of the throwbacks I've owned over the years (Falcons, 49ers, Giants, Saints, and Chiefs).
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
PLEASE SELL ME YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!
Mark,
Excellent post as always. This is what's great about this forum, we can all come together and share our knowledge.
As always, I can only speak for the Chicago Bears game used jerseys, so here's some info I wanted to share...
Chicago Bears must have been one of the more creative teams for the 1994 season as far as the throwbacks go... The team sold t-shirts with the throwback design, low, mid and high grade retail jerseys which ranged from screen printed numbers and going all the way to nice tackle twill sewn numbers. You could also walk into the team store and purchase a team issued jersey that looked 100% correct except some minor differences. Numbers and the name plate were created and applied at the store and for some reason they used different elements. You were literally purchasing a correctly tagged 1994 throwback with both tags, elastic sides and cuffed sleeves!!! I'm not sure what the price was but this was the ultimate level and priced accordingly I'm sure. See the last attachment for different styles sold. You can see in one of the pictures that high end store model butler had the name sewn directly on the back but when stepping up to the pro shop model, you got the name plate. As you can imagine, there are multiples of star players floating around in multiple sizes... I almost bought kickers jersey thinking it was the real deal but was proven wrong right on this forum...
I've been collecting Bears jerseys for a few years now and only was able to add a gamer in 2015 and it was not of a star player. Tory Epps (DT) only played one game in the jersey before being traded. It does exhibit all the traits of a real gamer. The 2nd throwback I purchased the night my 2nd child was born in 2016. This one is of a more famous player and it came directly from players family. It is also photomatched and shows use (all 3 games) with team repairs.
I have not seen photos of another game used 1994 Bears gamer before or since. People claim to have one and when pressed for photos, they flake out or are sitting on a nice team issued/pro shop model.
Bears gave the throwbacks to the players at the conclusion of the season.
Here's some eye candy of the two that I own:
Forgot to add...
Bears also wore special style pants in gold! The team still has all of them and I've been trying to get a pair for my jerseys...
WOW!!!! GREAT POSTS GUYS!!!!!
Thank you, I really enjoyed reading those - VERY informative.
Those throwback pics from Mark and Samets are pretty amazing as well. Fantastic looking jerseys!
Mark, one thing i didnt follow was the Falcons used their throwbacks again for the hall of fame game the following season in 95? Was this an all new set then? Obviously the roster wouldnt be the same and it would be heavily expanded if that game took place in the spring back then as it does now. That seems like a LOT of extra Falcons throwbacks out there so that makes me think I misunderstood you.
The rack of whites you saw, were they all throwback George? or if a year later, just all regular white George that were made for charity/sale etc.
I think I read here some teams had to have a different supplier for the throwback sets? Was there ever a reason or theory as to why this took place?
Also, I've always kinda wondered about the non M&N 'issued/game cut' Favre and Elways out there. Were these just mass produced retail versions or at the time did the team just make a bunch that were sold similar to the Bears story?
Speaking of the Bears story... man- that AWESOME!!! I WISH the Bills did something similar. I was 10 in 94 and was just awestruck with these throwbacks. I thought jerseys in general were cool (as evidenced by my drawings from back then. They always had the the NFL shield at the neck and Champion C logos on the sleeves lol) but I remember my parents inquiring to local stores selling jerseys as well as the Bills store itself trying to find SOMETHING throwback to no avail.
Its REALLY neat that the Bears offered T shirts and different level replica/authentic for purchase. That said, I'm surprised you dont come across these more often if they were avbl for public/retail purchase. What were the small differences between the store and the game jerseys? were the lower level Champion jerseys as well? Very cool the Bears had the foresight to offer something like that as now its a given (and maybe even done FOR the prospect of sales) but back then it obv wasnt taken advantage to its fullest potential for a marketing/sales standpoint. Oddly, that 6 on the kicker jersey looks like an upside-down 9. That was the one you said was a retail, right?
Champion really knew how to make a jersey. The detail and how that appears to be made is REALLY cool. As was the double tagging - tagging done right! Bills jerseys from these years didnt seem to have double tags if it was a mid season order, were Bears done that way too?
Over all, really cool stuff!!! I love talking and learning about these 94 jerseys as they really were ahead of their time as this was kind of the beginning of the 'throwback' trend - and for us jersey heads- thats kinda special.
So, i wanted to break up these posts as the last one was responding to prior responses. This is a new batch of questions (not pertaining specifically to the Bills, but used as an example because Im familiar)...
This talk of the Bears pro Shop making the top of the line ones for sale....
I always guessed the jerseys (like back in the day) came to the team blank and they applied #'s on site. When I think about it though, since ALL/MOST legit Champions have that 'Champion Font' - were they numbered/plated during manufacturing and sent out to the team? I ask bc when the Bills had preseason or quick roster adds, the name plates dont have the Champion font but rather the same style/font from back when they were wearing Sand Knit - which makes me think they were only capable of making that style on site.
So, if they DIDNT make jerseys on site, how do things like THIS exist?
http://i.imgur.com/u9DNEHX.png
This particular shirt came from Fleer when they went bankrupt. It was a jersey they bought as game worn and would have been sliced and diced for cards - but obviously wasnt due to them ceasing operations. Font is right, name plate font and length is right, and heck - even the micro mesh and cuffs are right for the Bills BUT dont jive with Kelly as he never wore micromesh, nor did he wear this cut furnishing the cuffed sleeves. I'm sure it was just a charity shirt as there were a ton (different from the 'authentics' sold in the Bills store) but I was always curious if it came from Champion or this was a blank made up in house (again needing correct font etc). If by chance it was, then why the funky sand knit font for newbies as I mentioned earlier. Hopefully someone with another Champion wearing team cane shed some light on this - I'd REALLY appreciate it lol.
Lastly, when I got my white throwback Kelly in hand I was amazed at the sleeves. Normal Bills/Kelly gamers were streamlined as the need to cut the bottom stripe to open flexability ended in the 1990 season (prior to champion redesign with nfl shield and making things a bit more 'uniform'). You still saw double stripes rocked by players after this, but they were just old/recycled jerseys.
I wondered if the game jerseys had this issue as well and after finding a pic of Kelly in action, it is apparent that they did indeed had these HUGE shoulder/sleeves. Infact, it may be the reason they only played with 1 stripe.
No matter if they were just tucked and hemmed, chopped off ( I STILL cant tell and it drives me nuts) or were manufactured with 1 stripe (in which case Champion would have had to manufacture something TOTALLY different as all the Kellys in this thread have 2 stripes - those long sleeves and 2nd stripe were/would have been quite restrictive. I TOTALLY see why they wore only the 1 stripe (however the stripe subtraction took place) and I'm starting to lean towards cut or hemmed because the reason the shoulder/sleeve parachutes like that almost seems to be the 2nd stripe!!!!
Normal Bills jerseys only had 1 and didnt have this issue. The following pics show the extra piece of fabric added in the armpit area so the sleeve could be this way and have an extra stripe. Its ironic then it was eliminated bc it appears the entire pattern of the jersey construct was altered to adjust to this. To me, the close up looks like the 2nd stripe might be folded under and sewn/hemmed on the inside rather than cut but it looks like it might exist rather than manufactured w 1. Anyone else see that?
http://i.imgur.com/OpCCN8a.png
http://i.imgur.com/U2VPcqv.png
http://i.imgur.com/uxXtunt.jpg
Lastly, I'm not sure if it was all teams, but another reason i think these look great is because they didnt do the dazzle shoulders and went back to the old way of the double later mesh, the same material of the rest of the jersey- just doubled up.
Good stuff, and any thoughts on the above are appreciated!
Sorry for the confusion. I was about as clear as mud in that explanation. That's what happens when I start writing essays after midnight!
To clarify, the Hall of Fame Game I was referencing was played in 1994 (July 30). The Falcons wore their red throwback jerseys in that game and again on September 18 in a regular season game at home against the Chiefs. They wore their white throwbacks in Washington the following week (September 25).
As for the rack of Jeff George jerseys that I saw in the Falcons equipment room in the spring of 1995, those were regular season white road jerseys intended for use in the 1995 season. The main reason the equipment manager was showing me the jerseys is that the Falcons had made a slight change to their white jerseys for the upcoming 1995 season (added a black trim to the collar).
As for different suppliers providing the throwbacks, the only team that I am aware of that used a different supplier for its throwbacks was San Diego. The regular season jerseys were Starter and the throwbacks were Russell. Here are the teams I am familiar with and can positively identify the suppliers:
Atlanta - Russell
Buffalo - Champion
Chicago - Champion
Dallas - Apex
Denver - Wilson
Detroit - Apex (their non-throwback jerseys worn in the first part of the season were Wilson as they didn't start wearing the Apex jerseys until later.)
Green Bay - Starter
Kansas City - Wilson
Los Angeles Rams - Russell
Miami - Wilson
Oakland - Starter
Philadelphia - Russell
Pittsburgh - Starter
New Orleans - Champion
New York Giants - Apex
New York Jets - Champion
San Diego - Russell on throwbacks and Starter for non-throwbacks
San Francisco - Wilson
Seattle - Wilson
Washington - Starter
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!
As far as the Favre throwbacks are concerned...
There are about three dozen known out there in the hobby. Top-notch forgeries which had been introduced to the market by... the Green Bay Packers.
In 1998, Grey Flannel Auctions contracted with the Packers for the club to provide custom jerseys for an auction. The Packers took thirty-six unused jerseys supplied to the team by Ripon Athletic, but not actually issued by the team to any player, and "re-purposed" them with Favre numbers and nameplates.
I borrowed that from the Green Bay Packers Uniform Database. Read the whole story here!
From what I've gathered myself and other collectors...
Logo Athletic seemed to have made the t-shirts and low end jerseys. Some even had the 1994 75th anniversary patch. Then you stepped up to the Nike's offerings. I've seen a few variations of them. On the higher end ones, Nike had the players name sewn directly to the back of the Jersey. You can see it in the Butler I showed above and the Zorich below.
Champion jerseys were only available through mail order or teams pro shop. I'm not sure how this whole thing worked but there are jerseys of players with straight sleeves (more retail and casual wear or QB cut at the time) and some that are cuffed correctly (game wear for most players). Maybe they had multiple tiers? Maybe these were team blank leftovers and you bought based on size you wanted and received whatever they had left? I don't know...
As you can imagine, the devil is in the detail. For whatever reason, the numbers done by the pro shop (mail order/retail) seem to be slightly off sized and placed differently then what the team seamstress did... I bet the seamstress had a template that was followed and the ones doing the retail side were done with close enough mentality... I've also included some side by sides of Pro shop versions next to the actual gamer.
Amazing pics!!
Crazy LA AND Nike got involved on the throwback train.
IMO, neither look even close to as nice as the Champion ones though.
It looks like a lot went into making those as well w all the pieces etc.
So, maybe this was done differently bc the Bears had sewn numbers but for reg season stuff, do you know what the normal protocol was for jerseys getting numbered? We're the already done upon arrival? Or blank and then numbered by the team?
I think the Jets had gone to sewn numbers by then... maybe the Bengals too? Off the top of my head I can't recall another team using screened number champion jerseys at the time. If there was, maybe an expert from THAT team would know if the screened ones showed up already done to maintain the Champion font.
I know the Bills were one of the last if not THE last to use screened numbers. After the Champion 87 port hole mesh set, all remaining champion and the sprinkled in Apex were screened until 97 when they went to WILSON, followed by logo athletic, puma and finally Reebok. After a few years of red white and blue screen print jerseys they changed to those hideous dark blue ones and brought in sewn numbers. The fact that each of the brand changes prior to that and after champion had different fonts as each company had a different style would lead me to guess they came to the team already #d... but again. I have no idea.
Anywho, thanks again for sharing those cool pics. I'm not a Bears guy but it's really fun and pretty neat to learn about stuff I had no idea about. Again, just amazes me the Bears were so far ahead of their time with this!
The Chargers used Russell in 1993, so perhaps they had already made arrangements to have Russell make the throwbacks before deciding to switch to Starter. Maybe a Chargers collector on here can shed more light on this.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!
Thanks for sharing all of the great information about the Bears throwbacks and the photos. It's really scary to see how close the high end team shop jerseys are to the game-worn jerseys. The information you provided about the Favre throwbacks is also very valuable as it explains how so many got out into the hobby.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!
ya, seriously great stuff guys - both of you!
I've found some really interesting stuff via search (the young 94 for a boat trade was my favorite) where some of this was mentioned in bits and pieces.
Sorry for anything you guys had to repeat - but even though this shied away from Bills stuff its still GREAT info and very good to know.
The very last thing I'd like to ask you guys (and i assume it just got lost in my barrage of questions)....
Were numbers done in house for your respective teams? I know the bears used champion and I think the Falcons did too (91ish?)
Bears were sewn so it might be different. But I'd think to keep the 'champion font' correct and consistent the jerseys would come already numbered.
depending on what you guys think - either way it explains things and opens more questions at the same time.
Thanks again for the help!!!
My understanding is that all Bears jerseys even now are purchased as blanks in requested sizes.
Ok, makes sense.
I know the Bills are blanks now as well.
To me, that's interesting for screen printed teams....
I wonder how champion made sure all the numbers were uniform and the correct font. It didn't occur to me (but it's painfully obvious) that the Bears never partook in that don't as they have always had their unique number thing going on - which is the coolest font going imo.
I don't know if the Falcons did the numbers in-house. They used Russell from 1975 through 1996 with the exception of the 1991 season when they used Champion and the 1990 pre-season when they wore black Champion jerseys before going back to Russell for the regular season. The #81 jersey below is from the 1990 pre-season, and the #85 jersey is from the 1991 regular season (tail was hemmed, so the tags are missing).
To confuse matters a bit, in the 1990 pre-season, several players wore the same number in the early preseason due to the size of the roster. Where players wore the same number, it appears that one wore Champion and the other wore Russell. I stumbled onto this when I wound up with a Russell jersey of #73-Oliver Barnett that showed game use. He and offensive lineman Reggie Redding both wore #73 in the preseason. Barnett ended up wearing #72 in the regular season while #73 was assigned to Redding who ended up not dressing for a regular season game until the following season. Ironically, at one point I also had a white jersey assigned to Redding for the 1990 regular season.
On a side note, the Falcons names were always sewn onto the plate dating back to 1970 (when names were first placed on the back of their jerseys) except for the above mentioned Champion jerseys.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!
Good looking jerseys!!
Thanks for sharing!
Excellent Falcons info too, and what a great time back then. Just all these little things like you mentioned keep you on your toes and provide other things to hunt and learn. There isnt much of that now days with Nike and all lol.
If you dont know, I'm not sure I'll ever find out. At some point I'd imagine things went away from the local sports store as it was back in the day.
As I said, coming pre #'d would make sense and explain some things but conversely, if thats the case, then it would also greatly expand whats considered 'team' issued.
Regardless, your falcons post provides the icing on the cake to this thread and i appreciate it.
There is very little to none as far as info on Bills throwbacks are concerned and googling brings one here. Hopefully the info you guys posted will help the next person trying to learn and understand how it worked with the Bills and other teams. Weird stuff.... but SUPER fun!!!
Hello, for quite a few years now I have been admiring many of you guys' collections and soaking up info when I can but other than a handful of exceptions, I mostly stick to retail authentics and team issued jerseys so I can rarely contribute.
However, in this case, I thought some of you may be interested in seeing my '94 Bears jersey after reading Samets' very informative posts early in this thread.
This is a Shaun Gayle I acquired from the parents of Shaun's long term girlfriend, Rhoni, (you may be familiar with that unfortunate story) that he had given to them.
Although the sleeves suggest it was not meant for use on field, the extra length and correct font seem to also rule it out as being the kind sold at retail according to the 2nd page of the thread.
Attachment 88665
Attachment 88666
Although the Steelers '94 TBTC is a grail of mine (seemingly unattainable, please help), I always loved the look and construction of the Bears jerseys from that season.
That, combined with the fact that Walter Payton and the '85 team made me fall in love with football and Gayle being the only member of that defense still in CHI in '94 makes this one of my favorites.
I'm already excited to see what teams pull out of the archives for the 2019 100th ann. season.
I also had a question regarding the '91 Falcons Champion jerseys.
Were the identifiers screen printed or heat pressed?
I thought screened but saw a Favre rookie (GF auction, I believe) that said vinyl was used.
Mark? Anyone?
sixburgh,
You have the Pro Shop model. As you pointed out, the sleeves do not have the elastic band added and the chest numbers look too small for a gamer.
Never-the-less, it's the first Gale throwback I've personally seen!
It's still a nice jersey and cost more than any other retail out there.
I hope you don't mind me stealing your pic for my personal files...
Thanks, Samets
Sure, feel free to copy the pics, happy to contribute.
At first, I believed the font to be the same as a gamer but now that I review the pics again I suppose they are not.
However, it has the 'EXTRA LENGTH '+4"' tag inside that I've never seen on any of my retail Champions.
The 'C' on the sleeves are also the larger gamer version too, embroidered in I believe, rather than the smaller logo with the royal border and sewn on that is seen on retails.
Obviously, you are far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am but my theory is, because of those details and considering it came directly from Gayle, that the jersey itself may have been sourced from the locker room and the customization done at the Pro Shop, making it a hybrid of sorts?
Btw, did you see the Conway on eBay listed for 40K?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1994-C...4383.l4275.c10
sixburgh,
Here's my take on these jerseys from a previous post:
You own a team issued jersey owned by the team that was a blank. Pro Shop customized it within 98% of what the team seamstress would have made.
The differences are minor but consistent. Can you actually do me a favor...
Can you take a nice photo of the 75th anniversary patch and post it...
I don't own any issued throwbacks but want to see something... I'll share my conclusion obviously...
Here you go, the biggest size I could attach...
Attachment 88677
Here is the inside tag, I was actually mistaken about the extra length, there is just what looks like a 'B' written.
I think the small number and vertical stripes make it look longer and I must have seen the '+4"' on one of my NBA Champion jerseys.
This is one of the first jerseys I bought when I started truly collecting about 10 years ago and forgot/confused some details.
Attachment 88678
So if the only difference is the "C" on the sleeve maybe it is just a Pro Shop jersey, my apologies.
Also, just to be clear I wasn't challenging your knowledge at all. I'm only trying to learn. I'd hate to think my first posts were rubbing a long time member the wrong way.
I am not quite clear on the description that "vinyl was used". The Falcons numbers and lettering on the Champion jerseys they wore in 1991 (also wore black Champion jerseys in the 1990 preseason) are what I typically describe as being screened-on like most Champion jerseys of that era. Hope that helps.
Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!
Thanks
Most jerseys are screen printed, a process where actual ink and a stencil is used like in the pic below...
Attachment 88686
Depending on the technique, this can result in small holes left in numbers or not, even before use, sometimes only in certain areas as I'm sure you have noticed on jerseys before.
Attachment 88687
The ink will also bleed through the mesh and can be seen from the inside of the jersey.
Heat pressed vinyl identifiers are just that, cut out vinyl numbers/letters applied with heat, basically ironed on.
The '80s & '90s Rams, as well as the early '80s 49er jerseys, appear to have done this, often resulting in a glossy look.
Attachment 88693
Attachment 88690
Attachment 88689
Here is actually a perfect example on this Bears jersey (not an original Wilson but a '90s reproduction made at the Sand-Knit/Ripon factory btw) as it shows both methods, with the stripes being screen printed and the letters vinyl pressed.
Attachment 88691
You can see here from the inside only the screen printing is visible due to it having been applied in a liquid form and seeping through the holes in the mesh.
Attachment 88692
Thanks for the pics.
As I suspected it's a 100% legit jersey. The reason I asked to see the patch is because there's a hidden message on it. Many of the non team issued jerseys are missing the hidden feature.
If you look at the base of the 7 you will see 3 letters: HAY That's a nod to Ralph Hay who is credited with the creation of NFL.