Frank Viola Red Sox jersey

[Swoboda4]

I mean that Romine (1985-91)is the only other one that we can associate with this jersey to explain away the Wilson tag. Isn't the set tag applied once? Why would a team care enough about a set tag to change it? The Wilson + set tag =Problem. Thanks for info Senior K-J.

[BPH32]

Hi,
Wow I am afraid some of the posts in this thread have "pushed my buttons" and there is so much good information on this forum but unfotunately sometimes I think there is about an equal amount of bad information. Although I can't say for sure this is a jersey we sold I believe that it is and if it is then it is one that we bought in bulk purchases from a former team employee many years ago in which there were lots of commons, a few stars, and several with the JRY letters removed (the letters along with a black twill strip were sewn on individually so the outline is easy to see). The tagging is correct for a 1991 home jersey and no the year tag has not been been added ( I guess because the poster hadn't seen this tagging before therefore it must be wrong). As I recall it did indeed have an outline of the JRY memorial letters (not a patch and why would anyone doubt that it would have an outline ?) that is why I noticed that it did and came up with the year used 1992 and player who wore #16 that year was Frank Viola. Wilson did make home jerseys through 1991 and believe it or not teams did use jerseys tagged from several years prior to the year actually used when the style didn't change (Russell did not change the style). No it's not as simple as "this is a 1991 Romine with the patch removed" this jersey might have been made for Romine but it was used by #16 in 1992 and that was not Romine plus they didn't have the "patch" in 1991. The size is consitent with Viola jerseys Wilson made that I have seen. As for whether Ball Park Heroes would have the knowledge to know? All I can say is that I am pretty certain that we have bought and sold more Red Sox jerseys from the 1979-95 time period than anyone over the last 15-20 years and with the experience of looking at lots of commons from those years comes knowlege. One last thing. Please don't throw all this info around as fact because I am afraid a lot of it isn't fact and it can cause more harm than good. I certainly don't know everything (my two sons think I know very little) and we do make mistakes but never intentionally.
Thanks, Kim Stigall
Ball Park Heroes
812-275-2717

[hblakewolf]

Forum readers-
As a quick side note, for those new to the hobby, you may not be familiar with Ball Park Heroes or the Stigall brothers. On this site, we often read about various shady dealers from the past, or dealers with less than a perfect background.

I have been dealing with Kim at Ball Park Hereos for over 20 years, and have nothing but positive attributes for him. BPH has, and continues to have, some of the best game worn uniforms in the hobby. When it comes to authenticity, don't loose any sleep with an item you purchase from them.

Kim, you don't need to defend yourself. Your reputation speaks for itself.

Keep up the great offerings!

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@pqtmedia.net

[kingjammy24]

Kim,

Thanks for your reply and insight. Seeing as how it's mainly my posts you're referring to, I think a reply from me is owed.

"The tagging is correct for a 1991 home jersey"

The year tag is 'correct'. I don't believe anyone said otherwise, other than a couple of remarks about how it was rare to see it in red, as opposed to black. I maintain that the Wilson tag itself is 1986-89 era Wilson tag. If you doubt this, I'd be more than happy to provide relatively solid evidence to back up my claim. This in no way casts doubt on whether the Red Sox keep jerseys in storage (which I suggested they might) or whether Wilson sends out old jerseys. I'm simply saying the Wilson tag doesn't match the year tag. Why it doesn't is anyone's guess.

"no the year tag has not been been added ( I guess because the poster hadn't seen this tagging before therefore it must be wrong)."

Without being facetious or sarcastic, I'll say that I offered that the year tag MAY have been added, not because I 'hadn't seen it before', but rather because it didn't match the time period of the Wilson tag.

"why would anyone doubt that it would have an outline?"

- because all of the 1992 RedSox, JRY-patched jerseys I've seen have been Russell.
- because Bill Henderson further confirms that the 1992 Road Whites were supplied by Russell.
- because I can't see any outline at all in the Ebay photos (granted theyre low resolution and not close up).
- because the main reason the Red Sox would remove the JRY patch would be to use the jersey in 1993 and I have serious doubts that the Red Sox used Wilson jerseys in 1993.
- because the other jersey that the seller was offering was an outright, blatant fake. (It was a 'KC Royals 'game issued' Bo Jackson BP jersey.
It had a 2000-era MLB logo on the neck for pete's sake).

I fully admit I could be wrong, but those issues above caused me to offer that there may not be an outline.

"this jersey might have been made for Romine but it was used by #16 in 1992 and that was not Romine plus they didn't have the "patch" in 1991."

Kim, that's what part of the discussion centered around..would Romine take the same size as Viola? Because the jersey seemed to have been made for Romine. I even said that Viola would likely take a size 46 and was simply wondering if the 5'11 Romine would also take a 46. I even offered that Wilson jerseys might run a bit smaller.

"Please don't throw all this info around as fact because I am afraid a lot of it isn't fact and it can cause more harm than good.

Kim, very little was thrown around as 'fact'. If you'll notice, I offered several possible explanations for this jersey, many of which were exactly what your explanation is:

From my posts:
"..few possibilities here...
- the Red Sox received a size 46, with no numbers in 1991 and had it tagged in 1991.
- Viola joined the Sox in 1992, they then had "16" sewn on and gave it to Viola.
- the jersey really was intended/worn by Romine and simply given to Viola in 1992.
If there really is no 'slight outline' of the JRY patch, then perhaps Romine took a 46 and this is simply a 1991 (or earlier) Romine."

You say the jersey may have been made for Romine but was worn by Viola in 1992. Kim, that's one of the possibilities I gave. Given that it's not the most straight-forward jersey, I gave several possibilities for the purposes of discussion. I ended off by saying that I personally don't feel comfortable bidding on the jersey, which I still don't. Of course, that's simply a personal choice.

Rudy.

[BPH32]

Actually it was supposed to be more of a general statement for the most part and not refering to you specificly on everything but I can see how you may have taken it that way. You might be right about it being an extra 1991 jersey that was numbered for use in 1992 but it would not have been year tagged by the team if that's what you meant. To my knowledge the teams don't put the year in as that is done by the manufacturer. I am not 100% sure what you are talking about on the Wilson tag but I will tell you that the years of usage on them is not cut in stone because there is almost always what I call "wash over" when older tags, bat labeling etc. are used in subsequent years. There is a good chance that most of the JRY jerseys you have seen came from us originally.
Kim Stigall
Ball Park Heroes
www.ballparkheroes.net

[cohibasmoker]

I have an unaltered Red Sox home jersey from 1992. It was made by Russell and has 5 tags in the tail. First, there is a Russell tag. Sewn UNDER the Russell tag is a year tag. Next to these tags, also sewn under the Russell tag is a 100% polyester tag. Then a blank tag. Whatever was on this tag must have washed off. Finally, there is a extra length tag. If interested, just email me at flaa1a@comcast.net and I'll send some scans of the entire jersey. THIS JERSEY IS NOT FOR SALE!!!!!



Happy to help.

[cohibasmoker]

Tried to attach a scan of the tags for the Red Sox 1992 jersey. Let's see if it worked. Here goes

[cohibasmoker]

Here are the JRY initials and armband.

[cohibasmoker]

Here are the JRY initials and armband.

.

[kingjammy24]

Kim,

re: my comments about the Wilson tagging.
As you know, manufacturer tags undergo visual revisions. Rawlings went from the red tag in the 80's to the white tag in the early 90's (and then quickly back to the red tag again). Wilson tags are no different in respect to having undergone revisions over the years. One of those revisions occurred in 1990. In 1990, Wilson MLB tags underwent a revision from the previous version which lasted from 1986-1989. The revision mainly entailed changing the size tag. In the 1986-89 version the size tag was a rectangular, paper tag with the words 'Care on Reverse'. In 1990, the size tag changed to a square, shiny cloth tag void of the 'Care on Reverse' verbage. I also feel the 'Wilson' font in the 1986-89 version was thicker and not quite as 'lean/sleek' as the version that came in 1990.
When I looked at the Ebay Viola, I felt the Wilson tag appeared to be the 1986-89 version because the font looked 'chunky'. However, looking at it again, I see now that, even though the size tag is completely curled up, it doesn't look large enough to be from 1986-89. That is, it looks like the smaller, more square 1990 revision. An error on my part.
See my image below for details. (Note to others: I will be updating my Wilson primer due to new information).
I still maintain that in 1991 the Red Sox wore Rawlings and in 1992 they wore Russell. I'm not saying they wore them exclusively. I have no way of knowing how many games Viola trotted out onto the field in 1992 in a Wilson jersey while the rest of his teammates wore Russell.
I also maintain that, personally, if I were purchasing a 92 Red Sox jersey with the JRY patch, I'd be more comfortable with a Russell.
Of all the Red Sox JRY jerseys you handled, were most of them Russell or Wilson?
I'm also confused as to why the patch would've been removed in this specific case.

At any rate, I think at this point, I think it'd be safe to say that the Red Sox received this jersey in 1991 and that was intended for Romine. Whether it was worn by him or not is unknown. If the outline exists, then it means it had the JRY patch affixed. If this is the case, then it means that in 1992, the Red Sox wore Russell and Wilson simultaneously. To me, this is a new revelation and discussions like this are the reasons this Forum is so valuable. Sure a couple of incorrect guesses may be made, but how else do you arrive at the truth? Unfortunately, 14 yr old jerseys don't always reveal the facts readily and the road to discovering them can sometimes be a little rocky.




Rudy.