Fake WFL Southern California Sun jersey?

[HassanWM]

Having had the wonderful honor to learn some stuff from WFL master Mark Hayne, this one is red-flag-fest:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ksid=p3907.m29

Don't think I am truly the one to say, but as far as I know, this shirt is not as advertised.

[hblakewolf]

Having had the wonderful honor to learn some stuff from WFL master Mark Hayne, this one is red-flag-fest:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=320166454765&Category= 86829&_trksid=p3907.m29

Don't think I am truly the one to say, but as far as I know, this shirt is not as advertised.

Hassan-
You are indeed indicating/saying there is a problem with this shirt, simply by making this post and noting that it is not as advertised.

Joe at B & E is a very stand up seller, and if you discuss a problem with him, I'd be willing to bet he would address it.

What specifically is wrong with the shirt?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[both-teams-played-hard]

Having had the wonderful honor to learn some stuff from WFL master Mark Hayne, this one is red-flag-fest:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ksid=p3907.m29

Don't think I am truly the one to say, but as far as I know, this shirt is not as advertised.

This is a retail shirt. However, this is not a "fake". You should be careful about running around willy-nilly calling something a "fake". Yes, it is not as advertised, but it is highly irresponsible for you to proclaim this jersey as a "fake". The term "fake" implies that this item was altered to deceive or appear to be something it isn't.
Hope this helps!

[HassanWM]

This is a retail shirt. However, this is not a "fake". You should be careful about running around willy-nilly calling something a "fake". Yes, it is not as advertised, but it is highly irresponsible for you to proclaim this jersey as a "fake". The term "fake" implies that this item was altered to deceive or appear to be something it isn't.
Hope this helps!

My apology for the wording. I was thinking it is a retail jersey, but not game worn. No team wore the WFL patch on the shoulder on the field. Also, Sand Knit jersey sizes, as far as I know, were numerical.

[otismalibu]

The term "fake" implies that this item was altered to deceive or appear to be something it isn't.

Isn't listing a retail shirt as a gamer, some level of deception? Isn't the seller trying to convince buyers that this item is something it is not? Would a retail jersey fetch that amount?

If no one seems to mind that something is "not as advertised", I've got a few Sand-Knit retail jerseys in my closet that I may have to list on eBay.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Isn't listing a retail shirt as a gamer, some level of deception? Isn't the seller trying to convince buyers that this item is something it is not? Would a retail jersey fetch that amount?

If no one seems to mind that something is "not as advertised", I've got a few Sand-Knit retail jerseys in my closet that I may have to list on eBay.

I admit that I was a bit abrasive in my reponse to Hassan. I'm glad he pointed out this jersey to the forum. I don't like the term "fake". It is especially difficult to call this WFL jersey a "fake", with all the short-sleeved Mannings and Jordan junk out there.
But, I'm willing to admit that I'm wrong and to change my terminology...in my opinion the jersey in question is indeed a "fake". It has a sophomoric added and removed NOB. Now, it takes an email to B&E to end this auction. I bet B&E will not accept payment for this shirt (too much to lose). This seems like a really high price for this jersey (correct me if I'm wrong.) Most of the WFL jerseys that I've seen have sold for less than $1,500. Can some WFL collectors give an update of recent prices for game used jerseys?

[G1X]

This is a two-part post so I hope you have the time and patience to read it. The first part is about the jersey in question, the second part is an episosde that illustrates both the positive and negatives in sharing information with others in the hobby.

In case anyone cares to know, the Southern California Sun jersey listed on ebay is not a game-worn jersey. There are a lot of things incorrect about the jersey that makes it nothing more than a very inaccurate replica.

The 1974 magenta colored Sun jerseys had white numbers trimmed in orange. The middle sleeve stripe was white with a smaller orange trim stripe on each side of the white stripe. In 1975, the Sun jerseys differed slightly as they added a small white stripe to the end of each of the orange stripes. In other words, the stripe pattern from top to bottom in 1975 was small white, small orange, wide white (middle stripe), small orange, small white. And as Hassan accurately stated, no WFL team wore the league patch on their jerseys.

Surprisingly, there are some replica jerseys that exists for this league with most being poor or inaccurate reproductions made back in the 1970s. They are usually very easy to spot. Collectors such as Hassan who are aware that I started collecting WFL jerseys after the league folded in 1975 and have a wealth of reference material on the league (photos, game film, ownership over the years of jerseys from nearly every team, etc.) will occasionally approach me for my opinion. What I find disheartening is that the information I share occasionally falls on deaf ears, especially when collectors/dealers/auction houses/GUU Forum members/ebay sellers hear what they were hoping not to hear.

What makes it all worthwhile is when collectors do listen and avoid making huge mistakes which is what Hassan did when contemplating the purchase of a replica Portland Storm jersey being offered for sale last March. After Hassan forwarded photos of the jersey, I provided information to both Hassan and the Seller indicating that it looked to be a mediocre replica at best. Hassan assessed the facts provided and smartly passed on making the purchase.

A few days later, the Seller posted the jersey on ebay with the headline description saying that it was a game-worn jersey. While the text of the description left one scratching their head wondering whether it was or wasn't an actual Storm jersey, I was particularly disgusted at the ebay listing, especially since the Seller was well aware of the several major flaws with the jersey (including the wrong number font and incorrect neck/collar) and had been supplied several game action photos so that he could clearly see the proper number font. I even reviewed game film for the Seller just to be sure that no Storm player wore this style of font.

To make matters worse, the Seller mentioned to me at one point that it appeared that the tail tags may have been doctored. In our last email exchange, he asked me if I thought that it could at least be a salesman's sample. I told him that if it was my jersey, I would simply list it as a replica. Lo and behold, the ebay listing appeared a few days later with little of my information included.

I called the Seller immediately and asked what the heck he was doing as I thought that he had agreed that it was a replica at best. He stated that he saw nothing wrong with listing the jersey as game-worn in the headline title since he went on in the text description to point out that there were some issues with the jersey (such as the font). Hassan and I still beg to disagree with the Seller's assessment as we felt that the headline title was indeed misleading and the text only muddied the waters.

The story ends on a happy note. MEARS ended up with the Storm jersey and listed it for sale on their website. I told Troy Kinunen about the problems with the jersey and presented him with the same evidence I presented Hassan and the ebay seller. Troy wasted no time in immediately doing the right thing by removing the jersey from the MEARS website.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[HassanWM]

What I find disheartening is that the information I share occasionally falls on deaf ears, especially when collectors/dealers/auction houses/GUU Forum members/ebay sellers hear what they were hoping not to hear.

Precisely why I posted this here. I mailed the seller through ebay on Sunday, put this up here yesterday, and guess what? This jersey is still there. What gives???

Mark, that Portland Storm jersey situation looks surreal now, if you know what I mean...

[HassanWM]

Allow me to correct myself, I e-mailed the seller on Saturday. Still up there more than three days later...

[G1X]

Hassan,

It looks like your efforts paid off as B&E did the right thing and removed the Sun jersey from ebay. A tip of the hat to you, B&E, and MEARS (Troy removed the Portland Storm jersey from their website as mentioned in my previous post) as actions such as these are great for the health of the hobby.

On the other hand, shame on the Seller of the Portland Storm jersey for the less than forthright ebay description of the jersey (refer to my previous post).

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net