Clemens Cutting His Tags Out?

[hblakewolf]

Good morning Forum readers-

I fellow forum reader asked me to give my opinion on a 2004 Astros Clemens jersey. This particular jersey is void of the Majestic tagging in the tail, however, has the washing tag with the correct 0062 code. I have heard from several collectors and dealers that Clemens removes the Majestic tagging in the front left outer tail, as he does not like it rubbing in his pants.

Folks, I find this a bit hard to believe. Why is it that Steiner is selling Clemens game worn Yankees jerseys that have the tagging in the tail? Likewise, why do the Blue Jays Clemens also have the tagging still intact in the tail? Both the Yankees jerseys and Blue Jays have rock solid LOA’s (Steiner and Jays team LOA).

I have seen several “Pro-Cut” Clemens Astros alternate red and home jerseys offered on Ebay, all unworn with the correct 0062 tagging. Sizing has ranged from 48 to 52. Is it possible that this elaborate story of Clemens removing the tail tags was created by those folks eager to make a quick $$$, and designed to allow these “Pro-Cuts” to be sold as gamers, earning a few thousand $$$ with a quick cut of a tag? Buy a Pro-Cut size 48, knowing it is the incorrect size, remove the tags, and presto!

No doubt this post will result in responses from collectors who are friends with Clemens, his limo driver, his dog walker, etc, who know for a fact that he is indeed removing the tags from his Astros jerseys. Does anyone own a Clemens Astros jersey with some type of team documentation? Rudy, how about a photo of a 2004 or 5 Clemens jersey being worn with a shot of the void tagging in the tail?

Although it is possible that Clemens removes the tagging, I would appreciate some sort of definitive proof behind why such tagging is removed.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[eGameUsed]

Howard,

I contemplated long and hard before posting information on my site regarding Clemens having his tags removed before use. I had a feeling someone might try to remove the tags of a "pro-cut" jersey. The Astros themselves recently auctioned off a Size 52, "0062," with added length (untagged) with the tag intact. It was signed, but brand new and never made it to the locker. For the Astros in Action Foundation, it was cheaper to get that one then the one for $250 in the team store (even though it didn't have the right length). Fortunately, I knew that ended up in the right hands of a collector and not someone that might try to alter it.

Definitive proof doesn't exist in this hobby! Clemens told me himself that his non pitching day jerseys "may" have the tags in the tail, "unless it was a pitching day jersey". I also have been to the Clemens Foundation offices multiple times and seen hangers and hangers of Blue Jays, Yankees, and Astros jerseys, some with tail tags with heavy use, some with no tail tags and light use, etc.

There is also the writing of the "22" in the tail or collar. The Clemens jersey listed on my site does NOT have the 22 in the collar, but I do have over 70 photo matches. I was alos told he "always" writes 22 in the tail or collar. I have talked with Keith Vari about this very issue.

In addition, I have a photo that I took of the recent Baseball as America exhibit at the Houston Museum of Fine Arts showing Clemens "first" Astros jersey that was used in the beginning of 2004. See the bottom of page here:

http://www.egameused.com/clemens_2004_jersey.html

The jersey clearly shows no tail tag. I can not say either way if "22" is written in the collar.

I do feel that Team LOAs offer a nice attribute for a jersey; however, teams can slap those things with anything. I had a Larry Walker Rockies jersey that was game used that still had the fold lines. I have purchased mutliple Blue Jays jerseys with game used designationg that didn't have the "secret" blue jays indicator for game use and were brand new. I also have received blue jays jerseys that were game issued that clealy were used. How can Yankee-Steiner authenticate a jersey 3 years after it would have been worn, or even 15 years and know if it was used or not? I guess I don't have much faith in Team LOAs and I would prefer an opinion from someone who knew the use characteristics.

As a note, the Clemens jersey on my site does come with Astros documentation as of its use, and was purchased directly from an Astros auction. As of today, I have 17 Astros Home Pinstripe jerseys that have been 100% photo matched. I have also been able to use imagrey analysis to determine that Red, grey, and white Astros jerseys were likely, or not, a photo match based on letter spacing, number spacing, letter/number orientation.

Howard, if you would like to refer the individual to me that is requesting an opinion, I would love to help out. I would do the same for Phillies jerseys to you as that is not my expertise. A rock solid, photo matched Clemens 2004 jersey with significant use should bring $10,000 easy, or at least I will pay that in a heart beat.

The red one on eBay currently with BIN for $2700 has more problems then just a "6200" tag an no source. First, Lou Lampson authenticated it at a time when he didn't even look for the inside tag. Second, there are issues with some of the lettering and numbering I don't want to get into.

E-mail me with any questions!

Thanks,

Chris Boyd
www.eGameUsed.com
ccboyd@houston.rr.com

[JETEFAN]

If This Helps, I Beleive In A Conversation I Once Had With Keith Vari, He Explained To Me That Clemens Only Started To Remove The Tags From His Jersey's After He Reached 3000 Strike Out Mark, Which Would Probably Explain His Earlier Jersey's With Tags And Mainly His Astros Jersey's Without. I Will Try To Verify With Keith.

George

[JETEFAN]

I Belive It Was 4000 Strikeouts And 300 Win Mark, Not 3000 Strikeouts As I Mentioned Before, Sorry.

George

[hblakewolf]

George-
Thanks for this information. I have one basic questions, however:
WHY??????

Why would the Rocket suddenly start this practice now?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[kingjammy24]

Oddly enough, I managed to find several photos of Clemens in 2004 and 2005 with his jersey untucked. Unfortunately, none of the pictures managed to completely show the bottom left tail/tagging area.
After winning the 2005 National League Division Series against the Braves, Clemens was running around the locker room with his jersey completely untucked. If anyone can dig up photos from that moment, I believe it'll be the best bet to see a Clemens Astros jersey untucked right after a game.

At any rate, there are a few things in this thread I'd like to comment on that are mostly unrelated to Clemens and his tags. (Personally I have no knowledge whatsoever about Clemens' tagging preferences).

Howard - "Why is it that Steiner is selling Clemens game worn Yankees jerseys that have the tagging in the tail?"

I believe there have been examples of Steiner selling game-issued jerseys as game-worn (and vice-versa?). For those genuinely interested in solving this mystery, I'd offer that the first step would be to confirm that Clemens did indeed differentiate between pitching jerseys and non-pitching jerseys. Chris Boyd says Clemens told him personally that he does. If that's the case, then I imagine there are a slew of otherwise legit, Clemens non-pitching jerseys out there being sold as 'game used'. I guess they technically are game-used, but of course they're different than the jerseys he actually wears on pitching days. The non-pitching jerseys would show wear, but not use. I'm wondering if some of the Steiner Clemens jerseys are either game-issued or non-pitching, 'game worn'. I suppose you could also apply this theory to his Jays jerseys.

Chris - "Definitive proof doesn't exist in this hobby!"

Without getting into semantics, I'd say definitive proof does exist and it's what enables us to discern legit from fake. I can say, conclusively, that the Red Sox wore Russell jerseys in 1992. There is not a sliver of doubt about this nor the slightest chance it is incorrect. It is in fact definitive in that it cannot be argued. What there isn't in this hobby is all-encompassing proof. That is, proof that something has occured in every single instance. In this case, if there were 1 photo taken of Clemens during or immediately after a game with his jersey untucked showing no tagging, then that is definitive proof that Clemens has worn jerseys with the tags removed. It is not all-encompassing proof that he wore such jerseys in every single game, but it is definitive proof that he did engage in the practice.
Unfortunately, it's this inherant lack of all-encompassing proof that many dealers seem to rely on when defending questionable items. Every time you call into question that size 44 Canseco jersey or the Clemens jersey with a #32 on the back, they shoot back with "you can't prove he didn't wear it", knowing full well it's almost impossible to prove something doesn't exist. I envy the NFL collector whose 16-game season actually means they can have all-encompassing proof.

Chris - "I do feel that Team LOAs offer a nice attribute for a jersey; however, teams can slap those things with anything... I have purchased mutliple Blue Jays jerseys with game used designation that didn't have the "secret" blue jays indicator for game use and were brand new. I also have received blue jays jerseys that were game issued that clealy were used."

Personally I think team LOA's supercede any other kind of LOA, including an athlete LOA. I say this simply because I've seen dealers, authenticators, and athletes make huge errors and at times, deliberately fake jerseys. I have yet to see a team sell a 'fake'. The worst they'll do is sell a game-issue as a game-worn.
Chris, regarding your Blue Jays jerseys: The Jays only started using the 'secret indicator' in 2000 or 2001. I've had relatively extensive discussions with the Jays regarding their jerseys. Long story short, they basically said that on jerseys prior to 2000/2001, they take a cursory look to determine whether it was game-used or game-issued. Specifically, they simply look for fading in the tagging, fading in the sleeve trim, & number puckering. They aren't authenticators or collectors. They fully admitted to me that they genuinely try to make their best guess but being that they aren't overly skilled or educated in discerning wear and use, some mistakes may be made. They also admitted that sometimes typos are made and it's possible for some jerseys to be 'mis-coded'. I would say if it has the 'secret indicator' then there's a 99.9% chance it was game-used. There's a very slim chance to mis-code the secret indicator. I believe that's a better guarantee or likelihood than you'll get from anywhere else.
Prior to purchasing from them, ask them specifically what use the jersey shows.

Chris - "I guess I don't have much faith in Team LOAs and I would prefer an opinion from someone who knew the use characteristics."

Chris, in my experience, dealers/authenticators who focus solely on 1 or 2 teams during specific eras and as a result have acquired in-depth team knowledge and higher accuracy rates than the teams themselves are extremely hard to find. I can count on 1 hand the number I've encountered. In the absence of such a dealer/authenticator, the team is the next best thing. I have more faith in team LOA's than any other sort.
I know the team isn't back there whipping up fakes, laundering game-issues to show wear, re-stitching fake strip tags, etc.

Chris - "The red one on eBay currently with BIN for $2700 has more problems then just a "6200" tag an no source. First, Lou Lampson authenticated it at a time when he didn't even look for the inside tag. Second, there are issues with some of the lettering and numbering I don't want to get into."

You could've just stopped at 'First, Lou Lampson authenticated it...' Seriously though, I and I'm sure many others would appreciate if you could get into the issues with the numbers and letters. That's why we're all here.


thanks,

Rudy.

[cjosefy]

Here's a screen cap from MLB streaming video of the 2005 NLDS Game 4 press conference. It's a shot of Clemens getting up from the table, and you can clearly see he doesn't have a size tag on the jersey.

[cjosefy]

The video can be seen here: http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/ps...p?view=hou_atl

Under 'Commentary' click on 'NLDS Game 4 press conference'

Clemens gets up from the table around the 26:00 mark.

[JETEFAN]

George-
Thanks for this information. I have one basic questions, however:
WHY??????

Why would the Rocket suddenly start this practice now?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

HOWARD, I AGREE WITH YOU 100% WHY ??? I WAS JUST BRINGING INFORMATION I RECEIVED ON THE SUBJECT.

GEORGE

[hblakewolf]

George-
I appreciate you bringing this info to the Forum.

For the life of me, I can't conclude why Clemens would remove the tags in the tail. I have heard everything from "the tags rub against his Junk" to "superstition".

Enquiring minds want to know!

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@pqatmedia.net