A Tale of Two Fisks

[kingjammy24]

byergo: I've seen up to set 6. If you're saying that it's common to see multiple versions of the same set and same style (home/road), then all I can say is that my experience is completely different than yours. I am aware that multiple set 1's homes happen. However, I would not call it common. Are you saying you're regularly running into multiple versions from the same set/same year/same style? (In the late 80's/early 90's era of MLB jerseys?)

joel: Technically, set 1 is "supposed to" mean 1 road, 1 home, 1 alternate. That's "the set". Technically, additional jerseys "should be" labeled as subsequent set 2, 3, etc. You know that this is what is ideally supposed to occur. I'm fully aware it doesn't always occur. Perhaps it's simply because my experience is different, but I haven't run into many 80's/early 90's same year/set/style jerseys at all. If you have, I'd love to see pics.

"Often a player will have multiple of the same set jersey, this is common knowledge."

Enough about "common knowledge". There's so much "common knowledge" purported in this hobby that I sometimes wonder how it is we're not all experts given the sheer amount of "common knowledge" that's constantly passed off as fact and expected to be known by everyone.

The "logic" or point of this thread is that, solely from my personal experience, multiple copies of same set/year/style jerseys are not common. It does happen but not consistantly or regularly. If other members' personal experiences have indicated that this is indeed a common or consistent occurance, then let's hear some stories, see some pics, and maybe a few of us can be enlightened. Let's hear some actual, firsthand experiences though; don't just regurgitate "common knowledge" that's been passed down the grapevine for years.

Rudy.

[trsent]

Rudy, what you are missing is that no one cared back in the day like we do now. When are you coming to Vegas? Dinner is on me.

[trsent]

More insight can be found on the MEARS forums at:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/42715...%27s%26quot%3B

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A Week For Numbers: Baseball Uniforms and "Set #'s"

February 11 2006 at 11:19 AM Dave Grob Dave Grob (Login davegrob1)One of the issues that seems to come up as a topic of conversation from time to time deals with the number of jerseys a player was issued. While it is a long held belief by many that only one or two sets where issued of either a home or road jersey, I have never subscribed to this as an absolute. I am not simply referring to star caliber players in the post flannel era who may have received special treatment.

One of the things I focused on when adding flannels to my collection for research purposes involved buying common player jerseys. I did this for two reasons. First it is simply more affordable. Secondly I felt that these jerseys where more likely to represent the average or the norm for a team during any relative time frame.

Today, in my collection I have examples of “SET 3” jerseys from both the 1950s and 1960s:

NY Giants 1952 Road Jersey of Wes Westrum tagged “3-52”. The shirt is all original so that this “3” is not any indication of a previous number.

Minnesota Twins 1967 Home Jersey of Ron Clark. Jersey is strip tagged “67 Set 3”.

I have seen this same thing with a number of Cincinnati Reds 1972-1976 road jerseys manufactured by Wilson. These jerseys have featured the numbers “2” and “3” written in black laundry pen over the Wilson tag.

In discussing this with a person who worked in major league clubhouse, he informed me that the “SET 1” and “SET 2” referred the set within an order. This means that depending on how many orders where made, there could in fact be more than one “SET 1” or “SET 2” for a player during the same given year. While the total number of jerseys would remain a function of a teams particular ordering practices, it does provide some valuable insight.


I began looking into this in some detail when I was asked to offer an opinion on a jersey purportedly worn by a Hall of Fame player during an event of some historical significance. A position being offered at that time by some was that the shirt had to be the same one as the team in question only got one home and one road during that season and they brought one forward from the previous season. It was also the position that this was the team’s typical practice through the 1950s. (I did in fact point to examples of this team having jerseys from the 1950s as being tagged "SET 2)

What this caused me to do was look for examples of what else might be out there to support either position. For the time period in question, I found:


1929 Tigers Home of Richard Nolan. Halper Auction Lot #774. This jersey predates Tiger's using numbers (began in 1931). This jersey has "3-29" chain stitched in the tail. MFG is Spalding.

1931 Chicago Cubs Home of Ed Baect. Masto Net June of 2003., Lot # 1236. This uniform has "3-31" chain stitched in the tail. Cubs did not begin wearing numbers until 1932. MFG is Spalding.

1932 St. Louis Browns Home Jerseys of Rick Ferrell (Hunt Actions Lot # 992, FEB 2004), Lou Polli (Hunts Auction Lot # 993 FEB 2004) and George Blaeholder (Hunts Auction Lot # 995 FEB 2004). All three of these jerseys manufactured by Spalding have the annotation of “ 3 32” chain stitched in them. In this offering are two other home uniforms from the same period (1931-1933) without any sort of numerical annotations. Lot # 994 is placed to 1933 because that is the only year Lin Storti wore that style with that number. Lot # 997 is placed to the 1931-1932 period for the same reasons. This shows examples from the same team and years when none of these players wore # 3 (Goose Goslin wore # 3 that season). It also shows a sampling of both tagged and untagged uniforms within the same period.

1932 Chicago Cubs Home Jersey of Rogers Hornsby ( Richard Wolfers Auctions November 1991, Lot 861 and then later in Robert Edwards Auction as Lot 5 June of 1996). This jersey is manufactured by Spalding and has “3 32” chain stitched in the back rear tail.

1934 Cincinnati Reds Road of Ray Kolp. Leland's Auction June of 1998, Lot # 729. Jersey has “4 21” or “B 21” Chain stitched in the tail. Kolp wore #21. MFG is Gold Smith.

What these jerseys had in common was that they either preceded the use of numbers or the player in question did not wear the number 3. To me, this suggests is that these annotations have nothing to do with uniform number. Since we are dealing with the numbers 3 and 4, I feel it is reasonable to assume they relate to uniform quantity. I don't think this suggest that this these are the third or fourth home or third or fourth road necessarily, rather they reflect relative number in respect to a total. If not, then what do they reasonably mean? What would be the rational for tagging the one home jersey as “3” and one road jersey as “4”? It might be more logical to suggest that the first home untagged (uniform #1), first road untagged (uniform #2) second home uniform tagged # 3 and forth road uniform tagged #4.

I think this all ties back to something Dave Bushing said in a recent post. That being “while it might be more convenient to deal in absolutes, historical and current data does not afford us this luxury”.

The advice I would offer any collector on this and similar topics that have been talked about for years is what I try to adhere to myself…Keep and open mind and keep looking.

Dave Grob

[suave1477]

Hello Guys well I see everyone is stuck on the set thing. Now I seemost people base there information on the tagging of sets, but it is not uncommon for jerseys to be made with out the set taggings. The reason why I say this is bcuz I know this for a fact, I personally own / Darryl Strawberrys Game Issued 1999 Season Home Jersey and his Game Used 1999 World Series Home Jersey ( mind you the world series jersey is also his regular season game used jersey and they added the patches for the Wolrd Series ) and neither one have tags of a set and they are both authentic. So for him to have a Game Issued for that year and a Game Used means players do get more then 1 Jersey. This is not common knowdlege pr Hearing through the grape vine this is PERSONAL OWNERSHIP!!!!

[Mike Grueber]

The Detroit Red Wings, they generally make two jerseys in each color in each set for their star players. For example, there are two Pavel Datsyuk white jerseys and two Pavel Datsyuk red jerseys in set one.

The Red Wings game-worn jerseys have the season and set number are stamped in the hem of the jersey. In the case of players who wear multiple jerseys in a given set, there is also have a tag in the collar with the number 1 or 2, indicating whether the jersey was the first jersey in the set for that player or the second jersey in the set for that player.

The Red Wings have been doing this for several years and this information is readily available through their Hockeytown Authentics store.


Mike Grueber

Mike Grueber

[kingjammy24]

After reading Dave Grob's post, here is where I believe the "crucial point" lay: “SET 1” and “SET 2” referred the set within an order. This means that depending on how many orders where made, there could in fact be more than one “SET 1” or “SET 2” for a player during the same given year.

I had never thought of sets in that specific way before. That is, a set pertain to a specific purchase order and that multiple purchase orders can be made. Under that scenario, 3 different purchase orders during the course of a year, for example, would mean 3 different "Set 1"'s. For some reason, I had previously assumed that only 1 purchase order is made each season. (The rest of Grob's post wasn't all that enlightening. I was aware of the existence of multiple sets (set 3's, 4's, etc) and his theory that jerseys marked with a "3", for example, or "4" may not refer to actual "sets" but rather simply a specific jersey's order within an entire purchase/inventory only seems to make sense when the jerseys are not specifically tagged or referred to as "sets". If the team is calling it a set (as many do) and/or it's clearly tagged with the word "set" (as these Fisks are), then it most likely is part of a set rather than part of an entire inventory).

Additionally, I think this entire "multiple set 1's" issue hinges on what constitutes a set. Previously, I had accepted "common knowledge" that a set was specifically 1 home, 1 road, 1 alternate. As Mike's post alluded to, a set can be anything the team wants it to be. What's to say that the Oakland A's, for example, didn't decide that a set, for them, would consist of 2 homes and 2 roads. Therefore it'd be normal to find 2 Oakland A's set 1 home jerseys. I suppose the logical followup question is who determines what a set will consist of: the team or the manufacturer? I don't know the answer to that.

All of that said, I think in the context of these Fisks, and similar era Rawlings jerseys with specific "set" tagging, I think one valid explanation for the existence of multiple same set/same year/same style jerseys is, as Dave Grob suggested, multiple purchase orders during the course of a season. I think another valid reason may be that in some cases the team determines what constitutes a set and order jerseys with set tagging that reflects their own proprietary definition/system.

Rudy.