Historic Auctions - '05 Matsui - Steiner issues

[kingjammy24]

Frank,

re: legal recourse:

If a jersey is re-sold, it retains the Steiner hologram. Steiner certs don't disappear if a jersey is re-sold. I don't believe we're talking about a jersey that did indeed come from Steiner and was simply re-sold amongst private parties a few times. If we are, did the Steiner hologram fall off? Did all of the Steiner docs disappear amongst the transactions, to the point where no mention is made of them at all in the description?

By the way, there may be the assumption that the Yankees own these jerseys. I would offer that it's possible that past a certain point, Steiner may be the entity that is granted ownership.

Rudy.

[Frank]

Frank,

re: legal recourse:

If a jersey is re-sold, it retains the Steiner hologram. Steiner certs don't disappear if a jersey is re-sold. I don't believe we're talking about a jersey that did indeed come from Steiner and was simply re-sold amongst private parties a few times. If we are, did the Steiner hologram fall off? Did all of the Steiner docs disappear amongst the transactions, to the point where no mention is made of them at all in the description?

By the way, there may be the assumption that the Yankees own these jerseys. I would offer that it's possible that past a certain point, Steiner may be the entity that is granted ownership.

Rudy.

Rudy,

While it may not be clear why someone would remove a Steiner hologram or destroy the cert, that doesn't mean that someone won't or hasn't. I'm not at all defending Historic Auctions because I've never dealt with them and I've never seen the Matsui jersey but just because the jersey they sold doesn't carry Steiner's hologram doesn't automatically make the jersey a fake.

I agree that once the Yankee's sell the jerseys to Steiner, Steiner becomes the owner. However once Steiner sells them to an individual or company and that individual or company resells it, there isn't anything to prevent the purchasing 3rd party from removing the hologram and reselling it.

I actually spoke with two attorneys regarding this matter and they said the only recourse Steiner may have is if a company or individual was buying stolen property from an equipment manager and they had knowledge they were stolen. However, if that company or individual resells the jerseys as real and the purchaser resells again, as long as the purchaser has no knowledge they were stolen, the purchaser can resell the jersey as they so please.

There are enough rumors and know-it-alls in the industry as it is. Let’s all try to get our facts together straight before we just automatically claim something is fake or claim that a jersey is required to carry a hologram.

Rudy, thanks for your discussion on all of this. Any thoughts?

Frank

[suave1477]

Frank on behalf of the other members, no one claimed it was fake or not real, that was you. Not anyone else. Frank you made a good point about getting facts straight. Please try to read posts thoroughly!!!

[kingjammy24]

Frank,

"..it may not be clear why someone would remove a Steiner hologram or destroy the cert, that doesn't mean that someone won't or hasn't."

It seems extremely unlikely, if not ludicrous, to think that someone would pay a substantial premium in order to obtain a piece with great provenance, and then intentionally remove the hologram and "destroy the cert". It's almost beyond the realm of any sort of logical behavior. While anything is technically possible, is this in the least bit likely?

Frank, the overwhelming likelihood is that this jersey bears no Steiner hologram or certs because it did not originate from Steiner, not because someone decided to destroy solid provenance.

".. there isn't anything to prevent the purchasing 3rd party from removing the hologram and reselling it."

There also isn't anything to prevent me from emptying my savings and literally flushing them down the toilet except that it seems highly improbable and borderline insane. You're seriously suggesting that someone legitimately bought the Matsui from Steiner, paid the substantial premium to obtain a "Steiner Yankees" jersey (Steiner's places a rough value on such a jersey at approx. $15k), deliberately removed the hologram, consigned it to Historic, and due partially to the consequent lack of Steiner provenance which they intentionally destroyed, they took a financial loss of thousands of dollars? I think this is slightly less likely than me winning next year's Cy Young.

".. as long as the purchaser has no knowledge they were stolen, the purchaser can resell the jersey as they so please."

Here you imply the jersey might be stolen. Regardless of who becomes legally liable for a stolen jersey, what buyer in their right mind wants to purchase a jersey that was possibly stolen from the Yankees? Perhaps a buyer naive enough to think they'll be able to keep the jersey after the Yankees find out.

"Let’s all try to get our facts together straight before we just automatically claim something is fake.."

Frank, so far you've proposed 2 "alternatives" to my theory:
1) the jersey was purchased from Steiner but the buyer intentionally destroyed all the Steiner certs. A theory about as plausible as the ice cream in my freezer coming alive and singing a medley of mariachi tunes.

2) the jersey was stolen from the locker room. While much more plausible than the first theory, I still don't believe this is the most likely scenario. If it turns out to be correct though, I feel sorry for the buyer.

Frank, you wanted to concentrate on "facts". Here are a few:

fact: Steiner entered into a formal business contract to acquire all of the '05 Yankees gamers
fact: Steiner confirms they received all of the '05 Matsui's
fact: Steiner placed holograms on all of the Yankee gamers they sold in 2005/06. As well, each came with Steiner certs.
fact: The odds of someone buying a Steiner jersey and intentionally removing the hologram and certs are extremely slim.

If these facts seem "arbitrary" or insignificant to some, then I'd love to know what they'd consider to be some genuine warning flags.

While I agree that facts are paramount, I think think that highly unlikely scenarios don't do much to help validate a "highly unlikely" jersey (which is all I ever referred to it as). At a minimum, we may just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Rudy.

[Frank]

Frank,

"..it may not be clear why someone would remove a Steiner hologram or destroy the cert, that doesn't mean that someone won't or hasn't."

It seems extremely unlikely, if not ludicrous, to think that someone would pay a substantial premium in order to obtain a piece with great provenance, and then intentionally remove the hologram and "destroy the cert". It's almost beyond the realm of any sort of logical behavior. While anything is technically possible, is this in the least bit likely?

Frank, the overwhelming likelihood is that this jersey bears no Steiner hologram or certs because it did not originate from Steiner, not because someone decided to destroy solid provenance.

".. there isn't anything to prevent the purchasing 3rd party from removing the hologram and reselling it."

There also isn't anything to prevent me from emptying my savings and literally flushing them down the toilet except that it seems highly improbable and borderline insane. You're seriously suggesting that someone legitimately bought the Matsui from Steiner, paid the substantial premium to obtain a "Steiner Yankees" jersey (Steiner's places a rough value on such a jersey at approx. $15k), deliberately removed the hologram, consigned it to Historic, and due partially to the consequent lack of Steiner provenance which they intentionally destroyed, they took a financial loss of thousands of dollars? I think this is slightly less likely than me winning next year's Cy Young.

You totally missed my point here. I wasn't saying that it is likely that someone would remove a cert from a jersey for which they paid a considerable amount of money. I was more speaking on the legality of someone removing the hologram once it has been purchased. It is not illegal to remove a hologram or destroy a cert once the jersey has been purchased. Because of this, you cannot assume that a jersey without a hologram or cert is automatically a fake.

".. as long as the purchaser has no knowledge they were stolen, the purchaser can resell the jersey as they so please."

Here you imply the jersey might be stolen. Regardless of who becomes legally liable for a stolen jersey, what buyer in their right mind wants to purchase a jersey that was possibly stolen from the Yankees? Perhaps a buyer naive enough to think they'll be able to keep the jersey after the Yankees find out.

Again, you are missing my point. I'm not implying that this specific jersey is stolen. I know nothing of this specific jersey and where it came from. Again, I was speaking about the legality of a 3rd party purchaser.

"Let’s all try to get our facts together straight before we just automatically claim something is fake.."

Frank, so far you've proposed 2 "alternatives" to my theory:
1) the jersey was purchased from Steiner but the buyer intentionally destroyed all the Steiner certs. A theory about as plausible as the ice cream in my freezer coming alive and singing a medley of mariachi tunes.

2) the jersey was stolen from the locker room. While much more plausible than the first theory, I still don't believe this is the most likely scenario. If it turns out to be correct though, I feel sorry for the buyer.

Although your attempt at humor was inane and while unlikely that the certs were destroyed, it doesn't negate the fact that it is entirely possible they were. Regardless of someone's intention or your singing ice cream, the fact of the matter is that Steiner has no recourse or civil action in regards to a jersey that doesn't bear their certs. You are entirely misunderstanding what I meant by my post.

Frank, you wanted to concentrate on "facts". Here are a few:

fact: Steiner entered into a formal business contract to acquire all of the '05 Yankees gamers
fact: Steiner confirms they received all of the '05 Matsui's
fact: Steiner placed holograms on all of the Yankee gamers they sold in 2005/06. As well, each came with Steiner certs.
fact: The odds of someone buying a Steiner jersey and intentionally removing the hologram and certs are extremely slim.

While I agree with three of the four of your facts, has someone other than Steiner confirmed the second? Regardless of that fact, if there is a single real jersey on the market without Steiner certs, either from them being destroyed or stolen, one of your facts is invalid and for you to claim that every single Yankee's jersey on the market that doesn't bear a cert is fake reminds me of an anecdote about some singing ice cream.

If these facts seem "arbitrary" or insignificant to some, then I'd love to know what they'd consider to be some genuine warning flags.

While I agree that facts are paramount, I think think that highly unlikely scenarios don't do much to help validate a "highly unlikely" jersey (which is all I ever referred to it as). At a minimum, we may just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Rudy.

I’m not even sure we have to agree to disagree, but please understand I was more talking about the legality of the matter and more specifically what recourse Steiner would have if a jersey is being sold without their certs. I think it is very important for buyers to know their rights and to know if they are allowed to purchase a jersey that doesn't bear a Steiner cert; regardless if Steiner would have you think otherwise. I also think it is very important for a buyer to research the authenticity extensively before they make any sort of purchase; be it from eBay, any of the auction houses, or even Steiner.


Frank

[Frank]

Frank on behalf of the other members, no one claimed it was fake or not real, that was you. Not anyone else. Frank you made a good point about getting facts straight. Please try to read posts thoroughly!!!

I could be missing it, but where did I claim it was real? Or fake?

[suave1477]

frank let it go, you made a mistake and we will all forgive you

[CollectGU]

First, the fact that the Yankees and Steiner are not going after auction houses that are now selling these jerseys speaks volumes about the legality issue.. Do not be so naive as to think that the players on the Yankees cannot/will not give away any of their jerseys to family friends, or agents because of an exclusive yankee/steiner relationship. Of course, Steiner is going to tell you that they have all the Matsui, Jeter, Arod, etc., jerseys because they want you to buy from them! That being said, I would be more comfortable buying game worn from Steiner, but that doesn't mean that ALL game used yankees jerseys that aren't from Steiner are fake....

[suave1477]

Collectgu they are not saying they are fake, all they are saying is it seems strange, But to give you some advice on something your are actuall very wrong. The players do not own the jerseys, they are property of the Yankees. So they do not or shall I say are not supposed to give them out to anyone. If they did they would not only be in violation of Steiner but they would be in Violation of the Yankees, since the jerseys are not there property to give away. You mentioned Matsui that is actually very interesting - bcuz I just recently found out Matsui purchases all his own bats personally and keeps everyone of them. He himself may give those out to who he pleases but he doesn't give out many. If you find a Game Used Matsui bat on the market GRAB IT!!!!

[Frank]

frank let it go, you made a mistake and we will all forgive you

Show me the post that I claimed it was real or fake and I'll ask for forgiveness.