1994 Bills Throwback Question

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

At this point, I think that everyone can agree that the jersey Kelly wore in the game does not match the sleeve stripes on WOODFERN's jersey. However, everything else looks to be correct on WOODFERN's jersey - number font, name-on-back, tail tagging, etc. With everything else appearing to be correct, perhaps the sleeves on the Kelly jersey (and other Bills players such as #81 in the photo) may have been shortened and tailored below the first group of stripes.

Marcus, since you were able to come up with some photos of Kelly from that game, can you or your friend provide some additional sideline shots or other action photos from the game that show numerous other Bills players. I am curious to see if anyone is wearing the full sleeves that include both sets of stripes (as seen on WOODFERN's jersey).

Thanks!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[mchmaj]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

At this point, I think that everyone can agree that the jersey Kelly wore in the game does not match the sleeve stripes on WOODFERN's jersey. However, everything else looks to be correct on WOODFERN's jersey - number font, name-on-back, tail tagging, etc. With everything else appearing to be correct, perhaps the sleeves on the Kelly jersey (and other Bills players such as #81 in the photo) may have been shortened and tailored below the first group of stripes.

Marcus, since you were able to come up with some photos of Kelly from that game, can you or your friend provide some additional sideline shots or other action photos from the game that show numerous other Bills players. I am curious to see if anyone is wearing the full sleeves that include both sets of stripes (as seen on WOODFERN's jersey).

Thanks!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

the sleeves are NOT TAILORED ... that is what they worn during MNF against broncos, you still can see if the sleeves have been tailored, it still DOES NOT MATCH THE SLEEVES stripes with woodfern kelly jersey. you also can see the #81 left sleeve are tucked in while right sleeve is open and its regular sleeve as its not tailored....
i can ask for more pictures to give more proofs
thanks

[mchmaj]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

i forgot to add that my friend told me that the 1994 MNF game the bills worn darker blue jersey as throwback , its darker blue than the jersey that woodfern have.. he has kelly jersey in ROYAL BLUE while the bills worn close to navy blue jersey. you can see the pictures in the game and the pictures of woodfery(his pictures are bad but you can see royal blue color jersey very clear...) now the stripes, the red line is more thicker on woodfern jersey while the red line is more slim on the sleeves in the game photos. so if tailored, it makes no different
thanks again

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Marcus,

Maybe it's just me, but I am not seeing any difference in the thickness of the red stripes between WOODFERN's jersey and the game photos. In my humble opinion, the only difference in the jerseys is that WOODFERN's has two sets of the 3-stripe pattern while Kelly and #81 in the game photos only have one set of the 3-stripe pattern on their jerseys. That is the reason I was curious if perhaps some of the Bills had their sleeves tailored, and if any other Bills player can be seen wearing a jersey with both sets of the 3-stripe pattern.

Regarding the concern with the shade of blue, trying to match an exact color shade in various photographs can be deceiving depending on the lighting (day game vs night game, cloudy day vs sunny day, etc.), whether a flash was used, camera settings, method of developing the photos, printing methodology, etc. WOODFERN's photos are at least third generation photos, and the original photos were taken in a room where a flash was most likely used. That is an extremely different lighting setting as compared to a night game under lights bright enough for a color television broadcast.

Having spent many hours in a dark room developing photographs, I can state as fact that shades will not always look exactly the same depending on a variety of the above mentioned factors. Anyone who has taken a photo indoors with a flash understands that colors can be distorted. There are examples seen in newspapers and on the internet every day where the jerseys of a team can appear to be a different shade based on the lighting, angle of the photo, and other variable conditions as previously mentioned. Below is a classic example of two photos of the same jersey where it appears to be a different color shade because of lighting and other factors. This is extremely important to know when researching jerseys.

But enough of that as I don't think that explaining the science of photography is answering my question. Again, please see if your friend has any other photos where we can see the entire Bills sideline. I am curious to know from an educational standpoint if any Bills player can be seen wearing a jersey with both sets of sleeve stripes.

Thanks!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[mchmaj]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

the answer is right there in the pictures....
you can see the guy next to kelly, and he was wearing sideline proline bills jacket. I am sure you can see its ROYAL BLUE ! and the jersey doesnt show any hint of royal blue color. whats more, study kellys game socks and you will see the different colors of blue. G1X, i am sorry your point is not valid...you need to study the this pictures more ...the redskins retro 70th anniv jersey pictures is FAR DIFFERENT than what i am trying to bring the point about kelly darker jersey VS woodfern royal blue kelly jersey. your two redskins pictures are MUCH THE SAME colors !
YES, i am working on getting more scans of diff players wearing same sleeves pictures....sidenote, he went to the game himself and he explained how much different between darker blue kelly jersey vs woodfern royal blue kelly jersey. i did sent him pictures of woodern kelly jersey and he was hoping i DIDNT buy it ...
thanks
marcus

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Marcus,

To say that my point is not valid is puzzling, especially after I gave a brief explanation of the many various reasons why shading can look different in photos. Are you saying that the two 'Skins photos are much the same color? A lot of folks, including myself, would not agree with you on that point.

Look closely at this photo from the Bills 1994 throwback game. It looks very close to the color of WOODFERN's jersey in my humble opinion. The jersey in this picture appears to be a lighter shade than the photos you provided.



We can agree to disagree about color hues all night long. I felt that I gave a very logical explanation of color variations in photos based on my experiences in the world of photography, plus I provided a valid photo example from my jersey collection. I think that I have further validated my point with the above photo from the 1994 throwback game. To even further substantiate my point, observe the below example of a Bills game-worn jersey of Jake Arians that is in my collection. Quite amazing how it appears to be an entirely different shade of blue based on the lighting used to photograph the jersey. I won't continue to belabor the point as I am confident that most readers understand this concept and realize that colors can be somewhat deceiving in photographs

I continue to believe that WOODFERN's jersey is correct other than for the second section of sleeve stripes, and if I see one Bills player from that game wearing both sections of the 3-stripe design, then I will feel comfortable that WOODFERN's jersey has a strong possibility of being a team-issued jersey. Most important to note is the way the stripe pattern seems to closely match on the underside of the sleeves (on the section of stripes closest to the shoulders on the WOODFERN jersey when compared to the above game photo).

But my question still has not been answered at this point. I want to know for educational purposes if any Bills player can be seen with the identical sleeve stripe design that is seen on WOODFERN's jersey. That is why I am requesting additional photos of the game so that I can see as many players as possible.

Any input from other Bills collectors or collectors with knowledge of this particular "throwback" style would be most appreciated.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[nyjetsfan14]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

I continue to believe that WOODFERN's jersey is correct other than for the second section of sleeve stripes, and if I see one Bills player from that game wearing both sections of the 3-stripe design, then I will feel comfortable that WOODFERN's jersey has a strong possibility of being a team-issued jersey. Most important to note is the way the stripe pattern seems to closely match on the underside of the sleeves (on the section of stripes closest to the shoulders on the WOODFERN jersey when compared to the above game photo).

Mark, I have multiple 1994 NY Jets game worn throwbacks in my collection - both the white worn for one game and the green worn for two games. I have an extensive Jets photo data base to include many a 1994 throwback pic and I have a 1994 throwback game on DVD so I think I can speak definitively on the 1994 Jets throwbacks. The NY Jets had MULTIPLE completely disimilar sleeve stripe styles for their 94 throwbacks depending on the player and customization. Some sleeve stripes were screened others were not, some were thick and others were not! With the Jets throwbacks, a backup jersey of a particular could easily have varied in sleeve stripe design from the game jersey of the same player. And as it applies to color hue, the 1994 Jets green throwbacks vary slightly as well. If you would like photographic evidence of such feel free to e-mail me Mark and I'll send along some good stuff for you. God Bless America!

Matthew

[toddhead]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Give it up guys... he'll never admit that he might be wrong... even a little bit.

[nyjetsfan14]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Give it up guys... he'll never admit that he might be wrong... even a little bit.

Huh? I am not trying to prove anybody wrong on anything. I have no idea about Bills jerseys nor do I care about Bills jerseys...I specialize in Jets. I was only providing Mark (or any other football collector in general) with specifics that he might find useful in the future as it pertains to 1994 NY Jets throwbacks. My previous post has nothing to do with any of the other posters or their information, questions, or comments.

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Matthew,
Thanks so much for the information. Your point about the Jets jerseys is precisely the point that I am trying to relate as being a possibility with the Bills throwback jerseys worn in 1994.

One-game styles can be very difficult to research and authenticate when they don't end up in the collecting community, so it is best to dig out as many documented facts as possible, especially while the discussion is "fresh" on the table in this Forum.

My apologies to all if the science of photography, color, and lighting (and other side issues) seem to have derailed the discussion, but I felt that it was imperative to delve into those issues as they are very relevant due to some of the claims being made in this post.

At this point, I am appealing to anyone in the Forum to provide photos or review video of the Bills-Broncos 1994 throwback game (Monday Night Game of 9/26/94) to see if the Bills had variations in their sleeve stripes.

Thanks to everyone who has assisted thus far.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[nyjetsfan14]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

At this point, I am appealing to anyone in the Forum to provide photos or review video of the Bills-Broncos 1994 throwback game (Monday Night Game of 9/26/94) to see if the Bills had variations in their sleeve stripes.

No prob Mark. Was that the only game the Bills wore the dark throwbacks? The Jets wore their green throwbacks twice - once at Miami and then later in the season at home vs. the Pats. They wore their white throwbacks only once, a week 4 Sunday nite home loss to the Bears. The anamolies/differences amongst the Jets throwbacks are vast. Some of the taller players (mostly lineman) had hybrid jerseys...the throwbacks with regular 1994 jersey bottoms sewn to the tail for extra length! Shoulder yolks differed, sleeve stripe style differed (as discussed earlier), color variations existed, etc...and that isn't taking into consideration backup jerseys which could have had different traits/customizations than the game jersey for a particular player (possibly for anticipation of different weather conditions, etc...). Of course, I am a Jets junkie and as mentioned have the throwback games on DVD and many photos from the games.

On the topic of anomolies, we are often quick to dismiss a jersey/helmet that doesn't match our immediate knowledge base. In my experience with Jets items I have seen vintage game photos of a player without a helmet logo, a Jets player (from the 1994 season ironically) with a helmet logo upside down, I have a photo of Al Woodall wearing a funky jersey that was a number 16 turned into his number 18 using pieces of other numbers, I have a photo of a 1960's Jets player wearing a Jets jersey with black trim which every Jets collector/fan knows wasn't done until the 90's, I have a photo of Jets players in the same game with different number AND font styles, and lastly I once told a collector the Jets never ever used Rawlings as a equipment supplier. Then one day I was going through my extensive Jets video library and found one singal game in which Ken O'Brien was sporting a Rawlings helmet - go figure! The point is back in the day things were less "sterile" than they are today. When an equipment manager lacked something he'd make a trip to the local sporting goods store or even borrow something from a local HS or college. A lot of these anamolies are extremely difficult/impossible to photo match because the amount of photos from those past eras are not as plentiful as they are now. Now if we are talking about authentic game issued items (which I believe are much more rare from past eras as they are today as I believe if a player from the 60's or 70's had a jersey there is a high likelihood he wore that jersey at some point) it is even more impossible. If I see an anamoly with a Jets jersey that I am not familiar with I don't automatically rule it out. This is where networking withing your specific aspect of the hobby help - having friends and fellow longtime Jets fans/collectors to bounce things off of is imperative as is an extensive resource base. Now if I could ever have a sit down with Bill and Clay Hampton I'd be set :-)

Sorry to take a very entertaining and humorous thread and ruin but just thought maybe my experiences might assist or relate to others.

God Bless America,
Matthew

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Matthew,

Thanks for the input. My understanding is that the Bills wore their blue throwback jerseys only in the Monday Night Game against Denver.

As a Falcons, WFL, and durene collector, and having made a few bulk buys from teams over the years, I can relate well to the anomalies. The things that come out of a team's equipment room can be simply amazing. Sometimes there will be a few items that are so out of the norm that I will not list them for sale unless I can match them in photos or film.

One of my all-time favorite photos is a Sports Illustrated shot of the Miami Dolphins' defense during the Super Bowl of their undefeated season. Some players are wearing jerseys with sleeve stripes, some are wearing jerseys with no stripes. Some players are wearing orange belts, and some are wearing aqua belts. Everyone in the photo is wearing black shoes except for Nick Buoniconti who is wearing white shoes.

Things tend to be more consistent in the current era, but anomalies can still be found. For example, Jim Yackel recently had for sale a 2005 black Falcons jersey of Rod Coleman that did not have the NFL equipment shield in the neck. Some collectors will quickly run from a jersey without the shield. The Falcons only wore the black jerseys twice in 2005, and if any naysayer would have spent a few minutes searching Getty Images, they would have matched a photo of Coleman wearing a black jersey without the shield. They would have also found other photos of Coleman from 2005 in both his white and red jerseys where no shield can be seen.

Please send me an email when you have a moment as I have some Jets questions that you can probably answer.

Thanks!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[lund6771]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

if you guys want answers to every question concerning this game I would suggest to get a video of it

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

lund6771,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have made that appeal in this thread and asked a few folks offline without any success at this point. I was hoping that a Bills collector or fan in this Forum could help out.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[lund6771]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

I'm not a Bills fan or collector, but I'll check at work tomorrow if that one is available and get back to you