1994 Bills Throwback Question

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Mark, you were quite active in the 1st incarnation of this thread.
Have you since learned anything about this 94 throwbacks between now & then?
Have you seen anything similar with other teams?
Thanks for the help and time!

I did not pursue this issue any further to save my sanity

In all seriousness, I never received the video of the game, so my interest died on the vine at that point.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

ALWAYS LOOKING FOR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Gotcha lol!!!
Ya, things looked pretty intense. Not to start anything, but its scary how much incorrect Bills info there is on this site. When 1st starting 7 or 8 years ago I used the few threads where you guys got into it pretty religiously in regard to basing rules for purchases etc. Through all the nonsense, there was some good info that served as a good starting point. Over the years there have been many times I've encountered something that was just incorrect though. From the great recycling debate to this, to even finding pics of a 1987 game where a few players actually wore the overlapping style of the Giants. I'd have bet $$ Bills game collars from that era all came to a V rather than overlap. Not the case.

Anywho, any idea as to why some teams are pretty easy to obtain throwbacks for? Conversely, why are some so hard? He may very well be a member here, but I ran into a collector whos long game was obtaining a home and away from each team from the 94 throwbacks. The Bills was the 1 team he couldnt seem to find. As i mentioned, I've only ever owned 3 and none were obtained through traditional channels, but rather someone who was hooked up from the locker room.

Which, brings me full circle to wondering if these Kellys were just made in house with extras to give people or if they made XX amount of these for various purposes. I've never run into anyone who knows sadly, so it may remain a mystery forever

[genius]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

My understanding is that many teams let their players keep their throwback jerseys from 1994 and being so long ago I doubt many would have looked at them as investment opportunities. Some likely have them displayed but my guess would also be that many would either be in storage somewhere or were discarded long ago. You might eventually see them start trickling out in player consignments to auction houses.

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

My understanding is that many teams let their players keep their throwback jerseys from 1994 and being so long ago I doubt many would have looked at them as investment opportunities. Some likely have them displayed but my guess would also be that many would either be in storage somewhere or were discarded long ago. You might eventually see them start trickling out in player consignments to auction houses.

That would make sense! Thanks for the thoughts. Its a shame other teams dont do what the Pats do. I know many 96-01 Bills jerseys are in tubs in storage that the a person associated with their alumni sells to make a few $$ here and there but I have no idea where the earlier ones are. They cant think very much of them though as 'something' was cleaned out last month and as a result a thrift store down the st (who seems to also get the dump when a coach or staff leaves) ended up with a bunch from the 80s ( had since been turned into practice jerseys so by no means the cream of the crop).

That said, I'm curious if each player was issued a gamer and a backup. There are multiple Kellys but the blue Fina I once owned was very clean and I had heard he had his in his collection. I get making multiples of a star player, but with respect to Fina... I cant see them running the presses with #70s. Interesting and probably correct reasoning why they dont tend to pop up.
Anyone noticed other teams whos throwbacks are incredibly hard to obtain?

[genius]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Steelers 1994 throwbacks are extremely rare, have only seen two game worn. Have seen five or six backups/extras though. I did hear the players got both. Rod Woodson's gamer sold at auction if I'm not mistaken and his backup was at one time displayed in the Hall of Fame.

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

I am not a Bills collector and don't really have a whole lot of knowledge in general about their jerseys. With regards to the 1994 throwback jerseys, the only teams that I can speak clearly about are Atlanta, San Diego, New York Giants, San Francisco, and Detroit.

ATLANTA - I had a huge Falcons collection at one point before liquidating most of it a few years ago. Back in the spring of 1995, I was invited to visit the equipment room. I asked about the 1994 throwbacks, and the equipment manager told me that they were given to the players. The Falcons played the Chargers in the Hall of Fame game that summer, and both teams wore their throwbacks (Falcons wore red, the Chargers wore white).

Many years later, I obtained a red throwback jersey of an offensive lineman (#76-Zeno) who played in that game but was cut before the regular season. I still have that jersey in my collection. Other than the red throwback of running back Erric Pegram (#33) that has been on eBay for an eternity, I have never seen another Falcons throwback in the hobby other than a few team-issued white Jeff George jerseys. I had a white George at one point, but I knew it wasn't game worn as the end of the sleeves did not match the one he wore at Washington (the only game where they wore the white throwbacks). This leads me to the assumption that the Falcons probably had some extras made up for charity purposes. Interestingly, when I was on my visit in the locker room, I was shown a rack of white 1995 jerseys for the upcoming season. There was quite a few Jeff George jerseys on the rack.

SAN DIEGO - A few of San Diego's jerseys ended up with Football Heaven which was a game-used helmet and jersey dealer in the 1990s and 2000s. He mainly specialized in helmets, and he had a connection with the Chargers to obtain helmets and jerseys. I ended up with a white throwback of defensive back Darrien Gordon (#21) that I no longer have in my collection. Other than the ones that Football Heaven obtained, I have not seen any in the hobby other than the many Junior Seau jerseys and a few Natrone Means back in the day when he was a star (similar to all of the Brett Favre Packers and John Elway Broncos throwbacks floating around out there.)

NEW YORK GIANTS - A number of these got out into the hobby. They are fairly easy to find as I currently have 5 in my collection.

SAN FRANCISCO 49ers - A company called Man of Steal had a deal with the 49ers and made these available to collectors. (Others in this Forum can probably provide more information on this than me.) I went to the Super Bowl in Miami where the 49ers trounced the Chargers. There was a memorabilia show that weekend in conjunction with the game, and Man of Steal was set up at the show with racks of 49ers throwback jerseys. I never purchased one from them, but I later ended up with a few over the years (both colors) but they have long since departed from my collection.

DETROIT LIONS - The Lions jerseys were auctioned off BEFORE the Monday Night Game where they wore the jerseys for the first time. I believe that it was Jim Hawkins, a major memorabilia dealer in that era who had also been a sport writer covering the Tigers for the Detroit Free Pres, who ran that auction. It was kind of a strange way to conduct an auction, especially not knowing who would be dressed out for the game. Whoever won the Anthony Carter jersey (big star at the time) had the misfortune of ending up with a team-issued jersey as Carter was injured and did not play in the game. The Lions ended up suiting up in throwbacks later in the season (maybe on Thanksgiving - can't remember for sure) and it was always my understanding that they had to obtain a new set since the first set had been auctioned off. The Lions had team sales several times back in those days, and my understanding is that some of the throwbacks ended up in those sales. Mabe a Lions collector or someone from Detroit can chime in with the facts as I am working on fuzzy memories and hearsay at this point. I had a nice throwback of #83-Aubrey Mathews that I really liked but is long gone from my hands.

Other 1994 throwbacks I've had over the years include a red Chiefs, white Saints, and a white Jets. The Chiefs jersey is especially interesting. Wayne Otto of Pro-Am Sports made a huge bulk buy from the Chiefs around 10 years ago. In that batch was some throwback jerseys. I am not sure if Wayne was attuned to this as the throwbacks were only slightly different than the style worn in 1994 (throwbacks did not have the sleeve stripes/cuffs).

This was probably way more information than most of you care to know. If you got this far, see below for photos of a few of the throwbacks I've owned over the years (Falcons, 49ers, Giants, Saints, and Chiefs).

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

PLEASE SELL ME YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!

[Samets]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Mark,

Excellent post as always. This is what's great about this forum, we can all come together and share our knowledge.

As always, I can only speak for the Chicago Bears game used jerseys, so here's some info I wanted to share...

Chicago Bears must have been one of the more creative teams for the 1994 season as far as the throwbacks go... The team sold t-shirts with the throwback design, low, mid and high grade retail jerseys which ranged from screen printed numbers and going all the way to nice tackle twill sewn numbers. You could also walk into the team store and purchase a team issued jersey that looked 100% correct except some minor differences. Numbers and the name plate were created and applied at the store and for some reason they used different elements. You were literally purchasing a correctly tagged 1994 throwback with both tags, elastic sides and cuffed sleeves!!! I'm not sure what the price was but this was the ultimate level and priced accordingly I'm sure. See the last attachment for different styles sold. You can see in one of the pictures that high end store model butler had the name sewn directly on the back but when stepping up to the pro shop model, you got the name plate. As you can imagine, there are multiples of star players floating around in multiple sizes... I almost bought kickers jersey thinking it was the real deal but was proven wrong right on this forum...

I've been collecting Bears jerseys for a few years now and only was able to add a gamer in 2015 and it was not of a star player. Tory Epps (DT) only played one game in the jersey before being traded. It does exhibit all the traits of a real gamer. The 2nd throwback I purchased the night my 2nd child was born in 2016. This one is of a more famous player and it came directly from players family. It is also photomatched and shows use (all 3 games) with team repairs.

I have not seen photos of another game used 1994 Bears gamer before or since. People claim to have one and when pressed for photos, they flake out or are sitting on a nice team issued/pro shop model.

Bears gave the throwbacks to the players at the conclusion of the season.

Here's some eye candy of the two that I own:

[Samets]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Forgot to add...

Bears also wore special style pants in gold! The team still has all of them and I've been trying to get a pair for my jerseys...

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

WOW!!!! GREAT POSTS GUYS!!!!!

Thank you, I really enjoyed reading those - VERY informative.
Those throwback pics from Mark and Samets are pretty amazing as well. Fantastic looking jerseys!

Mark, one thing i didnt follow was the Falcons used their throwbacks again for the hall of fame game the following season in 95? Was this an all new set then? Obviously the roster wouldnt be the same and it would be heavily expanded if that game took place in the spring back then as it does now. That seems like a LOT of extra Falcons throwbacks out there so that makes me think I misunderstood you.
The rack of whites you saw, were they all throwback George? or if a year later, just all regular white George that were made for charity/sale etc.
I think I read here some teams had to have a different supplier for the throwback sets? Was there ever a reason or theory as to why this took place?
Also, I've always kinda wondered about the non M&N 'issued/game cut' Favre and Elways out there. Were these just mass produced retail versions or at the time did the team just make a bunch that were sold similar to the Bears story?

Speaking of the Bears story... man- that AWESOME!!! I WISH the Bills did something similar. I was 10 in 94 and was just awestruck with these throwbacks. I thought jerseys in general were cool (as evidenced by my drawings from back then. They always had the the NFL shield at the neck and Champion C logos on the sleeves lol) but I remember my parents inquiring to local stores selling jerseys as well as the Bills store itself trying to find SOMETHING throwback to no avail.

Its REALLY neat that the Bears offered T shirts and different level replica/authentic for purchase. That said, I'm surprised you dont come across these more often if they were avbl for public/retail purchase. What were the small differences between the store and the game jerseys? were the lower level Champion jerseys as well? Very cool the Bears had the foresight to offer something like that as now its a given (and maybe even done FOR the prospect of sales) but back then it obv wasnt taken advantage to its fullest potential for a marketing/sales standpoint. Oddly, that 6 on the kicker jersey looks like an upside-down 9. That was the one you said was a retail, right?

Champion really knew how to make a jersey. The detail and how that appears to be made is REALLY cool. As was the double tagging - tagging done right! Bills jerseys from these years didnt seem to have double tags if it was a mid season order, were Bears done that way too?

Over all, really cool stuff!!! I love talking and learning about these 94 jerseys as they really were ahead of their time as this was kind of the beginning of the 'throwback' trend - and for us jersey heads- thats kinda special.

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

So, i wanted to break up these posts as the last one was responding to prior responses. This is a new batch of questions (not pertaining specifically to the Bills, but used as an example because Im familiar)...

This talk of the Bears pro Shop making the top of the line ones for sale....
I always guessed the jerseys (like back in the day) came to the team blank and they applied #'s on site. When I think about it though, since ALL/MOST legit Champions have that 'Champion Font' - were they numbered/plated during manufacturing and sent out to the team? I ask bc when the Bills had preseason or quick roster adds, the name plates dont have the Champion font but rather the same style/font from back when they were wearing Sand Knit - which makes me think they were only capable of making that style on site.
So, if they DIDNT make jerseys on site, how do things like THIS exist?



This particular shirt came from Fleer when they went bankrupt. It was a jersey they bought as game worn and would have been sliced and diced for cards - but obviously wasnt due to them ceasing operations. Font is right, name plate font and length is right, and heck - even the micro mesh and cuffs are right for the Bills BUT dont jive with Kelly as he never wore micromesh, nor did he wear this cut furnishing the cuffed sleeves. I'm sure it was just a charity shirt as there were a ton (different from the 'authentics' sold in the Bills store) but I was always curious if it came from Champion or this was a blank made up in house (again needing correct font etc). If by chance it was, then why the funky sand knit font for newbies as I mentioned earlier. Hopefully someone with another Champion wearing team cane shed some light on this - I'd REALLY appreciate it lol.


Lastly, when I got my white throwback Kelly in hand I was amazed at the sleeves. Normal Bills/Kelly gamers were streamlined as the need to cut the bottom stripe to open flexability ended in the 1990 season (prior to champion redesign with nfl shield and making things a bit more 'uniform'). You still saw double stripes rocked by players after this, but they were just old/recycled jerseys.
I wondered if the game jerseys had this issue as well and after finding a pic of Kelly in action, it is apparent that they did indeed had these HUGE shoulder/sleeves. Infact, it may be the reason they only played with 1 stripe.
No matter if they were just tucked and hemmed, chopped off ( I STILL cant tell and it drives me nuts) or were manufactured with 1 stripe (in which case Champion would have had to manufacture something TOTALLY different as all the Kellys in this thread have 2 stripes - those long sleeves and 2nd stripe were/would have been quite restrictive. I TOTALLY see why they wore only the 1 stripe (however the stripe subtraction took place) and I'm starting to lean towards cut or hemmed because the reason the shoulder/sleeve parachutes like that almost seems to be the 2nd stripe!!!!

Normal Bills jerseys only had 1 and didnt have this issue. The following pics show the extra piece of fabric added in the armpit area so the sleeve could be this way and have an extra stripe. Its ironic then it was eliminated bc it appears the entire pattern of the jersey construct was altered to adjust to this. To me, the close up looks like the 2nd stripe might be folded under and sewn/hemmed on the inside rather than cut but it looks like it might exist rather than manufactured w 1. Anyone else see that?






Lastly, I'm not sure if it was all teams, but another reason i think these look great is because they didnt do the dazzle shoulders and went back to the old way of the double later mesh, the same material of the rest of the jersey- just doubled up.

Good stuff, and any thoughts on the above are appreciated!

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Mark, one thing i didnt follow was the Falcons used their throwbacks again for the hall of fame game the following season in 95? Was this an all new set then? Obviously the roster wouldnt be the same and it would be heavily expanded if that game took place in the spring back then as it does now. That seems like a LOT of extra Falcons throwbacks out there so that makes me think I misunderstood you.

The rack of whites you saw, were they all throwback George? or if a year later, just all regular white George that were made for charity/sale etc.

I think I read here some teams had to have a different supplier for the throwback sets? Was there ever a reason or theory as to why this took place?

Sorry for the confusion. I was about as clear as mud in that explanation. That's what happens when I start writing essays after midnight!

To clarify, the Hall of Fame Game I was referencing was played in 1994 (July 30). The Falcons wore their red throwback jerseys in that game and again on September 18 in a regular season game at home against the Chiefs. They wore their white throwbacks in Washington the following week (September 25).

As for the rack of Jeff George jerseys that I saw in the Falcons equipment room in the spring of 1995, those were regular season white road jerseys intended for use in the 1995 season. The main reason the equipment manager was showing me the jerseys is that the Falcons had made a slight change to their white jerseys for the upcoming 1995 season (added a black trim to the collar).

As for different suppliers providing the throwbacks, the only team that I am aware of that used a different supplier for its throwbacks was San Diego. The regular season jerseys were Starter and the throwbacks were Russell. Here are the teams I am familiar with and can positively identify the suppliers:

Atlanta - Russell
Buffalo - Champion
Chicago - Champion
Dallas - Apex
Denver - Wilson
Detroit - Apex (their non-throwback jerseys worn in the first part of the season were Wilson as they didn't start wearing the Apex jerseys until later.)
Green Bay - Starter
Kansas City - Wilson
Los Angeles Rams - Russell
Miami - Wilson
Oakland - Starter
Philadelphia - Russell
Pittsburgh - Starter
New Orleans - Champion
New York Giants - Apex
New York Jets - Champion
San Diego - Russell on throwbacks and Starter for non-throwbacks
San Francisco - Wilson
Seattle - Wilson
Washington - Starter

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

[Samets]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Also, I've always kinda wondered about the non M&N 'issued/game cut' Favre and Elways out there. Were these just mass produced retail versions or at the time did the team just make a bunch that were sold similar to the Bears story?

As far as the Favre throwbacks are concerned...
There are about three dozen known out there in the hobby. Top-notch forgeries which had been introduced to the market by... the Green Bay Packers.
In 1998, Grey Flannel Auctions contracted with the Packers for the club to provide custom jerseys for an auction. The Packers took thirty-six unused jerseys supplied to the team by Ripon Athletic, but not actually issued by the team to any player, and "re-purposed" them with Favre numbers and nameplates.
I borrowed that from the Green Bay Packers Uniform Database. Read the whole story here!

Its REALLY neat that the Bears offered T shirts and different level replica/authentic for purchase. That said, I'm surprised you dont come across these more often if they were avbl for public/retail purchase. What were the small differences between the store and the game jerseys? were the lower level Champion jerseys as well? Very cool the Bears had the foresight to offer something like that as now its a given (and maybe even done FOR the prospect of sales) but back then it obv wasnt taken advantage to its fullest potential for a marketing/sales standpoint. Oddly, that 6 on the kicker jersey looks like an upside-down 9. That was the one you said was a retail, right?

Champion really knew how to make a jersey. The detail and how that appears to be made is REALLY cool. As was the double tagging - tagging done right! Bills jerseys from these years didnt seem to have double tags if it was a mid season order, were Bears done that way too?

From what I've gathered myself and other collectors...

Logo Athletic seemed to have made the t-shirts and low end jerseys. Some even had the 1994 75th anniversary patch. Then you stepped up to the Nike's offerings. I've seen a few variations of them. On the higher end ones, Nike had the players name sewn directly to the back of the Jersey. You can see it in the Butler I showed above and the Zorich below.

Champion jerseys were only available through mail order or teams pro shop. I'm not sure how this whole thing worked but there are jerseys of players with straight sleeves (more retail and casual wear or QB cut at the time) and some that are cuffed correctly (game wear for most players). Maybe they had multiple tiers? Maybe these were team blank leftovers and you bought based on size you wanted and received whatever they had left? I don't know...

As you can imagine, the devil is in the detail. For whatever reason, the numbers done by the pro shop (mail order/retail) seem to be slightly off sized and placed differently then what the team seamstress did... I bet the seamstress had a template that was followed and the ones doing the retail side were done with close enough mentality... I've also included some side by sides of Pro shop versions next to the actual gamer.

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Amazing pics!!
Crazy LA AND Nike got involved on the throwback train.
IMO, neither look even close to as nice as the Champion ones though.
It looks like a lot went into making those as well w all the pieces etc.
So, maybe this was done differently bc the Bears had sewn numbers but for reg season stuff, do you know what the normal protocol was for jerseys getting numbered? We're the already done upon arrival? Or blank and then numbered by the team?
I think the Jets had gone to sewn numbers by then... maybe the Bengals too? Off the top of my head I can't recall another team using screened number champion jerseys at the time. If there was, maybe an expert from THAT team would know if the screened ones showed up already done to maintain the Champion font.
I know the Bills were one of the last if not THE last to use screened numbers. After the Champion 87 port hole mesh set, all remaining champion and the sprinkled in Apex were screened until 97 when they went to WILSON, followed by logo athletic, puma and finally Reebok. After a few years of red white and blue screen print jerseys they changed to those hideous dark blue ones and brought in sewn numbers. The fact that each of the brand changes prior to that and after champion had different fonts as each company had a different style would lead me to guess they came to the team already #d... but again. I have no idea.

Anywho, thanks again for sharing those cool pics. I'm not a Bears guy but it's really fun and pretty neat to learn about stuff I had no idea about. Again, just amazes me the Bears were so far ahead of their time with this!

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Sorry for the confusion. I was about as clear as mud in that explanation. That's what happens when I start writing essays after midnight!

To clarify, the Hall of Fame Game I was referencing was played in 1994 (July 30). The Falcons wore their red throwback jerseys in that game and again on September 18 in a regular season game at home against the Chiefs. They wore their white throwbacks in Washington the following week (September 25).

As for the rack of Jeff George jerseys that I saw in the Falcons equipment room in the spring of 1995, those were regular season white road jerseys intended for use in the 1995 season. The main reason the equipment manager was showing me the jerseys is that the Falcons had made a slight change to their white jerseys for the upcoming 1995 season (added a black trim to the collar).

As for different suppliers providing the throwbacks, the only team that I am aware of that used a different supplier for its throwbacks was San Diego. The regular season jerseys were Starter and the throwbacks were Russell. Here are the teams I am familiar with and can positively identify the suppliers:

Atlanta - Russell
Buffalo - Champion
Chicago - Champion
Dallas - Apex
Denver - Wilson
Detroit - Apex (their non-throwback jerseys worn in the first part of the season were Wilson as they didn't start wearing the Apex jerseys until later.)
Green Bay - Starter
Kansas City - Wilson
Los Angeles Rams - Russell
Miami - Wilson
Oakland - Starter
Philadelphia - Russell
Pittsburgh - Starter
New Orleans - Champion
New York Giants - Apex
New York Jets - Champion
San Diego - Russell on throwbacks and Starter for non-throwbacks
San Francisco - Wilson
Seattle - Wilson
Washington - Starter

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

as always, great info...

I wonder why SD had to go w/Russell, especially as your list shows that (and we had discussed GB) starter was willing make throwbacks!

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

as always, great info...

I wonder why SD had to go w/Russell, especially as your list shows that (and we had discussed GB) starter was willing make throwbacks!

The Chargers used Russell in 1993, so perhaps they had already made arrangements to have Russell make the throwbacks before deciding to switch to Starter. Maybe a Chargers collector on here can shed more light on this.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!