1994 Bills Throwback Question

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

As far as the Favre throwbacks are concerned...
There are about three dozen known out there in the hobby. Top-notch forgeries which had been introduced to the market by... the Green Bay Packers.
In 1998, Grey Flannel Auctions contracted with the Packers for the club to provide custom jerseys for an auction. The Packers took thirty-six unused jerseys supplied to the team by Ripon Athletic, but not actually issued by the team to any player, and "re-purposed" them with Favre numbers and nameplates.
I borrowed that from the Green Bay Packers Uniform Database. Read the whole story here!

From what I've gathered myself and other collectors...

Logo Athletic seemed to have made the t-shirts and low end jerseys. Some even had the 1994 75th anniversary patch. Then you stepped up to the Nike's offerings. I've seen a few variations of them. On the higher end ones, Nike had the players name sewn directly to the back of the Jersey. You can see it in the Butler I showed above and the Zorich below.

Champion jerseys were only available through mail order or teams pro shop. I'm not sure how this whole thing worked but there are jerseys of players with straight sleeves (more retail and casual wear or QB cut at the time) and some that are cuffed correctly (game wear for most players). Maybe they had multiple tiers? Maybe these were team blank leftovers and you bought based on size you wanted and received whatever they had left? I don't know...

As you can imagine, the devil is in the detail. For whatever reason, the numbers done by the pro shop (mail order/retail) seem to be slightly off sized and placed differently then what the team seamstress did... I bet the seamstress had a template that was followed and the ones doing the retail side were done with close enough mentality... I've also included some side by sides of Pro shop versions next to the actual gamer.

Thanks for sharing all of the great information about the Bears throwbacks and the photos. It's really scary to see how close the high end team shop jerseys are to the game-worn jerseys. The information you provided about the Favre throwbacks is also very valuable as it explains how so many got out into the hobby.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

[Samets]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Thanks for sharing all of the great information about the Bears throwbacks and the photos. It's really scary to see how close the high end team shop jerseys are to the game-worn jerseys. The information you provided about the Favre throwbacks is also very valuable as it explains how so many got out into the hobby.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

Anytime!.

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

ya, seriously great stuff guys - both of you!

I've found some really interesting stuff via search (the young 94 for a boat trade was my favorite) where some of this was mentioned in bits and pieces.
Sorry for anything you guys had to repeat - but even though this shied away from Bills stuff its still GREAT info and very good to know.

The very last thing I'd like to ask you guys (and i assume it just got lost in my barrage of questions)....


Were numbers done in house for your respective teams? I know the bears used champion and I think the Falcons did too (91ish?)
Bears were sewn so it might be different. But I'd think to keep the 'champion font' correct and consistent the jerseys would come already numbered.


depending on what you guys think - either way it explains things and opens more questions at the same time.


Thanks again for the help!!!

[Samets]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

My understanding is that all Bears jerseys even now are purchased as blanks in requested sizes.

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Ok, makes sense.
I know the Bills are blanks now as well.
To me, that's interesting for screen printed teams....
I wonder how champion made sure all the numbers were uniform and the correct font. It didn't occur to me (but it's painfully obvious) that the Bears never partook in that don't as they have always had their unique number thing going on - which is the coolest font going imo.

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

ya, seriously great stuff guys - both of you!

The very last thing I'd like to ask you guys (and i assume it just got lost in my barrage of questions)....


Were numbers done in house for your respective teams? I know the bears used champion and I think the Falcons did too (91ish?)
Bears were sewn so it might be different. But I'd think to keep the 'champion font' correct and consistent the jerseys would come already numbered.

I don't know if the Falcons did the numbers in-house. They used Russell from 1975 through 1996 with the exception of the 1991 season when they used Champion and the 1990 pre-season when they wore black Champion jerseys before going back to Russell for the regular season. The #81 jersey below is from the 1990 pre-season, and the #85 jersey is from the 1991 regular season (tail was hemmed, so the tags are missing).

To confuse matters a bit, in the 1990 pre-season, several players wore the same number in the early preseason due to the size of the roster. Where players wore the same number, it appears that one wore Champion and the other wore Russell. I stumbled onto this when I wound up with a Russell jersey of #73-Oliver Barnett that showed game use. He and offensive lineman Reggie Redding both wore #73 in the preseason. Barnett ended up wearing #72 in the regular season while #73 was assigned to Redding who ended up not dressing for a regular season game until the following season. Ironically, at one point I also had a white jersey assigned to Redding for the 1990 regular season.

On a side note, the Falcons names were always sewn onto the plate dating back to 1970 (when names were first placed on the back of their jerseys) except for the above mentioned Champion jerseys.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

[gobills123]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Good looking jerseys!!
Thanks for sharing!
Excellent Falcons info too, and what a great time back then. Just all these little things like you mentioned keep you on your toes and provide other things to hunt and learn. There isnt much of that now days with Nike and all lol.

If you dont know, I'm not sure I'll ever find out. At some point I'd imagine things went away from the local sports store as it was back in the day.

As I said, coming pre #'d would make sense and explain some things but conversely, if thats the case, then it would also greatly expand whats considered 'team' issued.

Regardless, your falcons post provides the icing on the cake to this thread and i appreciate it.
There is very little to none as far as info on Bills throwbacks are concerned and googling brings one here. Hopefully the info you guys posted will help the next person trying to learn and understand how it worked with the Bills and other teams. Weird stuff.... but SUPER fun!!!

[sixburgh]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Hello, for quite a few years now I have been admiring many of you guys' collections and soaking up info when I can but other than a handful of exceptions, I mostly stick to retail authentics and team issued jerseys so I can rarely contribute.

However, in this case, I thought some of you may be interested in seeing my '94 Bears jersey after reading Samets' very informative posts early in this thread.
This is a Shaun Gayle I acquired from the parents of Shaun's long term girlfriend, Rhoni, (you may be familiar with that unfortunate story) that he had given to them.
Although the sleeves suggest it was not meant for use on field, the extra length and correct font seem to also rule it out as being the kind sold at retail according to the 2nd page of the thread.




Although the Steelers '94 TBTC is a grail of mine (seemingly unattainable, please help), I always loved the look and construction of the Bears jerseys from that season.
That, combined with the fact that Walter Payton and the '85 team made me fall in love with football and Gayle being the only member of that defense still in CHI in '94 makes this one of my favorites.
I'm already excited to see what teams pull out of the archives for the 2019 100th ann. season.

I also had a question regarding the '91 Falcons Champion jerseys.
Were the identifiers screen printed or heat pressed?
I thought screened but saw a Favre rookie (GF auction, I believe) that said vinyl was used.

Mark? Anyone?

[Samets]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

sixburgh,

You have the Pro Shop model. As you pointed out, the sleeves do not have the elastic band added and the chest numbers look too small for a gamer.

Never-the-less, it's the first Gale throwback I've personally seen!
It's still a nice jersey and cost more than any other retail out there.

I hope you don't mind me stealing your pic for my personal files...

[sixburgh]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Thanks, Samets

Sure, feel free to copy the pics, happy to contribute.

At first, I believed the font to be the same as a gamer but now that I review the pics again I suppose they are not.

However, it has the 'EXTRA LENGTH '+4"' tag inside that I've never seen on any of my retail Champions.
The 'C' on the sleeves are also the larger gamer version too, embroidered in I believe, rather than the smaller logo with the royal border and sewn on that is seen on retails.

Obviously, you are far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am but my theory is, because of those details and considering it came directly from Gayle, that the jersey itself may have been sourced from the locker room and the customization done at the Pro Shop, making it a hybrid of sorts?

Btw, did you see the Conway on eBay listed for 40K?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1994-CHAMPION-CHICAGO-BEARS-80-CURTIS-CONWAY-AUTHENTIC-GAME-JERSEY-SIZE-44-/222751112203?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

[Samets]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

sixburgh,

Here's my take on these jerseys from a previous post:

...Champion jerseys were only available through mail order or teams pro shop. I'm not sure how this whole thing worked but there are jerseys of players with straight sleeves (more retail and casual wear or QB cut at the time) and some that are cuffed correctly (game wear for most players). Maybe they had multiple tiers? Maybe these were team blank leftovers and you bought based on size you wanted and received whatever they had left? I don't know...

As you can imagine, the devil is in the detail. For whatever reason, the numbers done by the pro shop (mail order/retail) seem to be slightly off sized and placed differently then what the team seamstress did...

You own a team issued jersey owned by the team that was a blank. Pro Shop customized it within 98% of what the team seamstress would have made.

The differences are minor but consistent. Can you actually do me a favor...
Can you take a nice photo of the 75th anniversary patch and post it...

I don't own any issued throwbacks but want to see something... I'll share my conclusion obviously...

[sixburgh]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Here you go, the biggest size I could attach...


Here is the inside tag, I was actually mistaken about the extra length, there is just what looks like a 'B' written.
I think the small number and vertical stripes make it look longer and I must have seen the '+4"' on one of my NBA Champion jerseys.
This is one of the first jerseys I bought when I started truly collecting about 10 years ago and forgot/confused some details.


So if the only difference is the "C" on the sleeve maybe it is just a Pro Shop jersey, my apologies.

Also, just to be clear I wasn't challenging your knowledge at all. I'm only trying to learn. I'd hate to think my first posts were rubbing a long time member the wrong way.

[G1X]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

I also had a question regarding the '91 Falcons Champion jerseys.
Were the identifiers screen printed or heat pressed?
I thought screened but saw a Favre rookie (GF auction, I believe) that said vinyl was used.

Mark? Anyone?

I am not quite clear on the description that "vinyl was used". The Falcons numbers and lettering on the Champion jerseys they wore in 1991 (also wore black Champion jerseys in the 1990 preseason) are what I typically describe as being screened-on like most Champion jerseys of that era. Hope that helps.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

[sixburgh]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Thanks

Most jerseys are screen printed, a process where actual ink and a stencil is used like in the pic below...


Depending on the technique, this can result in small holes left in numbers or not, even before use, sometimes only in certain areas as I'm sure you have noticed on jerseys before.

The ink will also bleed through the mesh and can be seen from the inside of the jersey.

Heat pressed vinyl identifiers are just that, cut out vinyl numbers/letters applied with heat, basically ironed on.
The '80s & '90s Rams, as well as the early '80s 49er jerseys, appear to have done this, often resulting in a glossy look.




Here is actually a perfect example on this Bears jersey (not an original Wilson but a '90s reproduction made at the Sand-Knit/Ripon factory btw) as it shows both methods, with the stripes being screen printed and the letters vinyl pressed.

You can see here from the inside only the screen printing is visible due to it having been applied in a liquid form and seeping through the holes in the mesh.

[Samets]

Re: 1994 Bills Throwback Question

Thanks for the pics.

As I suspected it's a 100% legit jersey. The reason I asked to see the patch is because there's a hidden message on it. Many of the non team issued jerseys are missing the hidden feature.

If you look at the base of the 7 you will see 3 letters: HAY That's a nod to Ralph Hay who is credited with the creation of NFL.