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  1. #31
    Senior Member kingjammy24's Avatar
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    Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

    robert, i think you did a fantastic job on this.

    "imho heritage did not simply and blindly list a rare helmet without so much as lifting a finger or taking a close look at it - they were furnished with what appeared to be sound written and verbal documentation, a sworn deposition and an autograph from namath that clearly implied that the helmet in question was his sb3 lid - they also reviewed scores of photos that showed namath wearing an almost identical helmet during the super bowl. given this, their mistake is more than understandable imho."

    the documentation was impressive. ultimately though, everyone knows an item must stand on its own and not simply coast on "iron-clad" provenance. we've all seen items with great provenance crash and burn. the real issue is the extent of heritage's effort. while they obviously did more than blindly list it without lifting a finger, did they go to the full extent that they should've for the profit they stood to reap? obviously noone had the expectation that they'd blindly list it and not do any work so the fact that they did more than that is a given. this was, in heritage's words, "arguably the most significant football artifact ever to reach the auction block". if chris nerat's estimate was correct, then it was possible for this helmet to have sold for $100k. at $100k, the buyer's premium alone would've been almost $20k. what are the expectations for a $20k payment? while it's difficult to quantify, i don't think it'd be unrealistic to expect 140 man-hours of work for $20k. how much time did heritage spend reviewing photos? they reviewed scores of them and noone at all noticed the holes? i know less than nothing about football helmets but i know the difference between 2 holes and 1 hole and if i spent even 20 hours looking at photos then i'd have to be completely inept not to eventually notice the holes. imagine staring at a single helmet and photos for 20 solid hours. the holes would eventually pop out like a sore thumb. if, after 20 hrs, i still didn't notice them, then do i honestly deserve to charge thousands of dollars for my services?

    point blank, whatever heritage did, it wasn't good enough in light of the profit they stood to reap. some lone collector, who wasn't being paid at all, came along and pointed it out. they're the ones who ought to have serious resources at their disposal. this is their profession. i certainly can't pay thousands for magnified getty images nor can i afford to devote an entire week to staring at photos but they can and they should've. when you walk into a place that charges $100 for an entree, then you expect a $100 entree. when the chef comes out with a $6 burger, then it's hardly an excuse if he says "hey it's not like i didn't do anything. a $100 entree is hard!". that's really my beef against many of these shops; they're not good enough for what they charge. you'll find expertise on this forum that's as good if not better and costs nothing. you alone outperformed an entire crew whose job it was to suss this helmet out! they charged $20k and failed. you charged $0 and got it right. the auction houses are filled with self-annointed experts who are more skilled at writing press releases and collecting premiums than running clean auctions. the 20-30% buyers&sellers consignment rates are laughable for the lack of quality work they seem to churn out.

    if they only want to look at photos for 20 min before crowing "hey we tried! noone's perfect!", then they should chop their buyers premiums down to 2% and people wouldn't expect a great job. whatever heritage did on this helmet wasn't worth a 19.5% buyers premium. for $20k, i'd expect them to see the holes.

    "before these photos were posted..was it so obvious? i would say apparently not given that at no time had anyone challenged the helmet's authenticity."

    the holes weren't hard to miss. the fact that noone challenged it isn't, in my opinion, evidence that it was easy to miss. i assume most didn't care to even bother looking that closely. i usually only look closely at items i'm considering purchasing or items that i find really interesting. how many serious buyers were there for a $100k helmet? plus, the auction hadn't even really begun. perhaps some people did notice but simply didn't speak up for various reasons. if you spend 40 hours examining photos and every single inch of the helmet, how blind would someone have to be to miss the 2 holes vs 1 hole? $20k worth of blindness. you don't even have to know a thing about football helmets for petes sake to notice the difference. all you have to do is know the difference between 1 and 2.

    anyway, here's the most interesting issue; heritage stated "This exceptional offering has remained in the possession of Andrew Vanore, Jr. from the days just following Super Bowl III until Tuesday, February 19, 2008, when it was delivered to Heritage consignment directors."

    straight from broadway joe to his friend to andrew vanore to heritage. now look at these photos:



    notice the "namath", "12", and "jwm" inscriptions written in the helmet. now juxtapose those with your comment that "this helmet was never worn by namath...there are several problems relating to the interior of the helmet that, imo, rather easily disqualifies it as a helmet ever worn by namath". the helmet was never worn by namath yet the inside is marked up with his name and number. i don't doubt your evaluation but it certainly makes the inscriptions very puzzling. any thoughts on how or why those inscriptions are there?

    anyway, heritage seems to have made the best of a bad situation by reacting promptly and properly. i can name a few auction houses that would've told you to take a flying leap and would continue to run the helmet because "lou says he likes it".

    rudy.

  2. #32
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    Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

    In the photos just posted , I see a faint number 5 between the 1 and 2 ....

    There is also another number after the 5 , but I cannot tell what it is .

    Has anyone pointed this out ?
    Thank you,
    David

    This is my email address here!
    dzscope at gmail dot com

    Email is best for personal messages...


  3. #33
    Senior Member kingjammy24's Avatar
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    Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

    "couldn't the same be said for guu auctions?..."

    robert, you're correct. while i think there are some inherant flaws in GUU's Auction system, i suppose the big difference in your example is that GUU explicitly requests and depends on the community to examine their items as part of their authentication process whereas most auction houses, like HA, charge far more substantial premiums to "get it right" with their own crew. with HA there's the expectation that they got it right in-house whereas with GUU i suppose there's the expectation that the community got it right. If this helmet had come up in a GUU auction and sold, i guess we could all blame ourselves

    "is it possible to bring helpful information to forum members without compromising the reputation and integrity of a seller that freely and promptly removes an item that is found to be not as described? further, is it unethical to share the details of the problem with the forum even though the seller has done everything in his power to right the situation?"

    obviously, everyone's made mistakes. the issue is the number and nature of errors. some people make very few mistakes and even fewer are stupid mistakes. others seem to make stupid mistakes every 5 minutes. i don't think people simply see the error without regarding the context. i've made errors and many people i respect have made errors but noone holds anything against them because the errors have been so few and far between and they weren't stupid errors. there's also the increased expectations when someone's paid to be an "expert" and they go around beating your chest proclaiming themselves to be the greatest ever, like many auction houses do.

    i don't think there's anything unethical about sharing info. you're assuming their reps will necessarily suffer and i don't think that's the case. kim stigall's made some errors and his rep is stellar. people can barely remember the mistakes he's made because they were so few and far between and they weren't stupid errors.

    with this namath helmet, i was simply floored that for $20k they couldn't spot 2 holes vs 1. $20k! if i pay someone $30, then i don't expect them to spend 2 solid days working on something. however, if i pay $20 grand, i want chris ivy's head buried in SB3 books for at least 2 solid weeks, day and night. it's all about expectations. for me, heritage failed to live up to them. errors aren't just errors. there's the context that determines how they'll be regarded.

    "at the end of the day, the seller's integrity and motives will always be contemplated."

    i don't really agree that they'll always be contemplated. again, it depends on the context of the error.

    rudy.

  4. #34
    Senior Member kingjammy24's Avatar
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    Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by camarokids View Post
    In the photos just posted , I see a faint number 5 between the 1 and 2 ....

    There is also another number after the 5 , but I cannot tell what it is .

    Has anyone pointed this out ?


    rudy.

  5. #35
    Senior Member kingjammy24's Avatar
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    Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

    chris nerat posted this on the scd site on 03/18:

    "Today Lou determined that it is not a game-worn Namath helmet, but is a Jets gamer from an unknown player."

    well this is odd. it went straight from namath to his friend/courier to the consigner. it has "namath", "12", and "jwn" written inside it. why was an unknown player running around the field with joe's name, number and initials written in his helmet??

    rudy.

  6. #36
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    Wink Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjammy24 View Post
    anyway, heritage seems to have made the best of a bad situation by reacting promptly and properly. i can name a few auction houses that would've told you to take a flying leap and would continue to run the helmet because "lou says he likes it".rudy.
    and that's all i've been trying to point out, especially given my experiences with other auctions houses. as i mentioned months ago, i once came across a "game used" butkus helmet at auction that didn't look right - so i contacted butkus, pointed him to the auction and he replied to my email the following day that the interior of the helmet "bothered" him, that he didn't recall his number ever being applied to the inside of the helmet in the same manner. the auction houses response? in a nutshell - butkus didn't know what he was talking about, the lid rides. beautiful.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjammy24"
    notice the "namath", "12", and "jwm" inscriptions written in the helmet. now juxtapose those with your comment that "this helmet was never worn by namath...there are several problems relating to the interior of the helmet that, imo, rather easily disqualifies it as a helmet ever worn by namath". the helmet was never worn by namath yet the inside is marked up with his name and number. i don't doubt your evaluation but it certainly makes the inscriptions very puzzling.
    imo no more puzzling than the sig on the exterior of the helmet that reads "hope you have as much luck with this as i have...", no more puzzling than a 1975 vintage cowboys' tk helmet that will soon hit auction houses with a letter from staubach stating that it was his game used lid even though staubach stopped wearing tk lids after the '72 season, no more puzzling than a 1973 vintage tk packers' lid inscribed by bart "1971 my final season".

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjammy24
    any thoughts on how or why those inscriptions are there?
    sure - just as i have thoughts as to why the size "7" appearing on the crown webbing has been carefully darkened. but, again, the helmet is clearly not namath's sb3 lid as advertised so getting into that or the several other problems with the lid seems to be beating a dead horse - or an attempt to further embarrass heritage by piling it on.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjammy24
    i don't think there's anything unethical about sharing info. you're assuming their reps will necessarily suffer and i don't think that's the case. kim stigall's made some errors and his rep is stellar. people can barely remember the mistakes he's made because they were so few and far between and they weren't stupid errors.
    i think we'll have to agree to disagree - imo auction houses suffer when they drop the ball and their mistakes are rehashed in the public domain.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjammy24
    point blank, whatever heritage did, it wasn't good enough in light of the profit they stood to reap.... if they only want to look at photos for 20 min before crowing "hey we tried! noone's perfect!", then they should chop their buyers premiums down to 2% and people wouldn't expect a great job. whatever heritage did on this helmet wasn't worth a 19.5% buyers premium. for $20k, i'd expect them to see the holes.
    and therein lies the rub - further, it's a point that's impossible to argue and imho you are 100% correct. collectors pay a steep premium to auction houses because they are supposed to offer what ebay doesn't - a safe haven where one can be confident and secure that what they are purchasing is indeed the authentic item that has been described. but, then again, just do a forum search on coas and it's pretty clear that auction houses are what they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjammy24
    chris nerat posted this on the scd site on 03/18:

    "Today Lou determined that it is not a game-worn Namath helmet, but is a Jets gamer from an unknown player."
    well lou and i agree - as i mentioned in my first post, not only did i believe that the lid wasn't namath's game used sb3 helmet, but i didn't believe that it ever belonged to namath. who says lou is a bad guy? better yet, i wonder if heritage paid lou for his input!

    btw rudy, thanks for your posts on the topic - they were a great read and i'm sure 99.9% of the forum feels exactly as you, as well they should!

  7. #37
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    Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjammy24 View Post
    chris nerat posted this on the scd site on 03/18:

    "Today Lou determined that it is not a game-worn Namath helmet, but is a Jets gamer from an unknown player."

    well this is odd. it went straight from namath to his friend/courier to the consigner. it has "namath", "12", and "jwn" written inside it. why was an unknown player running around the field with joe's name, number and initials written in his helmet??

    rudy.
    i just went over to scd and read chris's blog - i found his following comment interesting:

    "Many board members crucified Heritage for promoting the piece as something it was not, but what they didn’t realize is that Lou never authenticated it and caught all the things wrong with it and many more things that the message board member didn’t even catch."

    hmmm....

    i thought i was careful to state throughout my posts that i found many other problems with the helmet but considering the two major issues i pointed to, i felt that discussing the other issues was pointless - so i didn't. as a matter of fact i stated the following:

    "...as i told chris at heritage, the problems with this helmet are numerous - there are significant inconsistencies that encompass both the interior and exterior of the lid. but two inconsistencies are so major that they make discussing the others in detail moot - in fact, they're so major that they simply rule out the possibility of this helmet being namath's sb3 game worn lid. as a matter of fact, in my opinion this helmet was never worn by namath."

    so i'm a little confused - why would chris nerat feel compelled to state that lou discovered problems with the helmet that i "didn't even catch" given that i clearly didn't share my other findings with the forum? chris?


  8. #38
    Senior Member otismalibu's Avatar
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    Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

    i thought i was careful to state throughout my posts that i found many other problems with the helmet but considering the two major issues i pointed to, i felt that discussing the other issues was pointless - so i didn't.
    Yep.

    It's sad, really. After the fact, it's "look, look...Lou found something that the board members did not!!!" Hats off to you Lou - you're a credit to the hobby.

    Lou Lampson couldn't hold aeneas01's jock, when it comes to helmet knowledge. And if he did ever get his hands on it, he'd surely attribute it to Joe Montana.

  9. #39
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    Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

    It seems that fellow board member and Sports Collectors Digest columnist Chris Nerat is a little disgusted with some of the fellow posters on this site. You can read it on his blog here: www.sportscollectorsdigest.com

    Well, I decided to email a response to his blog and here is what I emailed him.

    Chris, I just finished reading your blog about some of the cowardly talk on the gamusedforum.com website. I'm not going to trash Heritage for jumping the gun and advertising an item that appeared to have rock solid provenance but Heritage probably should have done a little fact checking themselves before promoting an item like this before the collecting community. By taking a little amount of time and cross checking the helmet it would have saved them from this embarrassing situation. Mistakes happen, but with an item such as the Namath helmet they should have realized that it would have been scrutinized.

    My problem with your column is that you state that some posters on the forum are way out of line, some are cowards and some are instigators and are bad for the hobby. Yes, there are some overzealous posters on there but with the many fake items that have been sold at auction through supposedly reputable auction houses after being authenticated by supposedly reputable authenticators I believe the collecting public has grown tired of seeing collectors being ripped off for the sake of pure profit for certain auction houses and authenticators.

    How can someone such as yourself actually call someone out as a coward and bad for the hobby when the company you work for continues to business withCoach's Corner Sports Auctions? I'm sure you have heard all the complaints about authenticity with Coach's Corners items. It seems Coach's Corner has a never ending supply of Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Cy Young and even Josh Gibson signed items. Some of the most knowledgeable and experienced autograph and memorabilia collectors in the collecting community have never even seen a genuine Josh Gibson signed item but Coach's Corner seems to find one to auction every other month. When Coach's Corner does sell these items why do they always sell at just a fraction of what the same item would sell for in say a Robert Edwards auction?

    I know you frequent the message boards such as as the one for the basis of your column as well as the Net 54 Vintage Baseball Card Forum where posters have continued to ask for a response to this but no one from SCD has ever been man enough to step up and respond. In fact there was an outstanding thread that has received over 700 post that questions SCD and their relationship with Coach's Corner. I'm sure you have seen it but in case you haven't here is a link to it. http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1201896466/last-1205088768/Open+letter+to+STAT+and+Christopher+Morales This is just one of the many threads where posters have questions SCD's motives.

    Why hasn't there been a response from someone associated with Sports Collectors Digest? It is the "voice of the hobby" isn't it? I can tell you, it's money. If it wasn't for the monthly 20-25 pages of advertising that SCD gets from Coach's Corner I highly doubt that publication would continue to be in business. I am a current subscriber for now but I find it embarrassing that you can call someone out for being a coward and being bad for the hobby when the publication that you write for has done so much damage and continues to further damage the hobby each and every month.

    I look forward to your response.

    We will see if Chris Nerat isn't the coward that he claims some on here to be and responds to this very important question.

  10. #40
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    Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by otismalibu View Post
    Yep. It's sad, really. After the fact, it's "look, look...Lou found something that the board members did not!!!"
    i have to say greg, nerat's comments left me with the same impression - with a little pouting and sour grapes thrown in as well. frankly, and not to put too fine of a point on it, imo nerat was pretty much saying that the "pros" are now on the job, they now have it covered, and that the armchair authenticators and hobbyists can get back to comparing bottle caps.

    also, given that nerat felt compelled to pursue this topic in his blog, i'm equally curious about his following comment as well:

    "Keep in mind, Lou Lampson, its (Heritage's) game-used equipment authenticator wasn’t scheduled to come in to their Dallas offices until this week, when he will look at all lots for the May Signature sale.... Was it bad judgment to run with the ads before Lou looked at the helmet? Maybe so, but they did and that was a business decision, but given the strong provenance, I believe it was a calculated risk and the majority of other auction houses probably would have done the same thing."

    so let let's see if i've got this straight - lampson is actually heritage's game-used equipment authenticator (which i didn't know), the guy does work for them? yet heritage doesn't run the namath helmet by him before his scheduled trip to dallas, before they publicize the lid as ""arguably the most significant football artifact ever to reach the auction block"? lampson is in the dark as far as this item is concerned? is this what i'm hearing from nerat?

    seriously, how does this work? seriously, how does one square this? obviously lampson had access to the same photos heritage included in their publicity ad - obviously lampson could have received more photos from heritage if needed. and obviously getting on a plane to dallas was not needed to determine that this "monumental piece" was not namath's authentic sb3 helmet.

    but apparently, according to nerat, that's not how things work in the world of top-tier auction houses, in the world of well-known authenticators. apparently an auction house can't pick up the phone and call it's authenticator to say "hey, we know you will be here in two weeks to do your work on the lots, but how about taking a quick look at some photos of this namath helmet we got our hands on - we think it could be the biggest find of the last twenty years, could bring a boat load at auction and we want to get the word out as soon as possible."

    no, apparently things just don't work like that - after all, what could be determined by just looking at some pics....

 

 

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