Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

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  • kingjammy24
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2005
    • 3119

    #46
    Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

    "imo auction houses suffer when they drop the ball and their mistakes are rehashed in the public domain"

    my point wasn't that their reps don't suffer per se but rather that, if all else is good, then their reps don't suffer long-term effects. i agree that any entity will suffer an immediate, short-term hit when they drop the ball. relatively speaking though, a short-term hit is negligible. people forgive and forget. for proof of that all you need to do is consider the fact that everyone has made errors yet many reps have remained stellar. clearly the errors they made didn't have long-term repercussions. the real, long-term
    effects, i believe, only come when the mistakes are constant and egregious.

    "why would chris nerat feel compelled to state that lou discovered problems with the helmet that i "didn't even catch" given that i clearly didn't share my other findings with the forum?"

    robert, in your post you explicitly stated that you had found a myriad of other issues but given the profundity of the 2 main ones, it was pointless to discuss the others. when i read chris nerat's post that lou had found issues that you hadn't, i naturally assumed that you privately conveyed to him the totality of issues you had found and that's what enabled him to know that lou had found issues you hadn't. after all, if chris didn't know all of the issues you found, then how could he possibly know that lou had found ones you hadn't? are you saying you had no such conversation with chris nerat?

    personally, i found nerat's calls of "walking the walk" and discussions of what's bad for the hobby to be the height of hypocrisy. how is it he has time to lambast members of this forum yet he apparently has no time to ever write about any of lampson's or coachs corner's massive errors? if someone wants to be a sycophant or is too gutless to bite the hand that feeds them, that's fine and understandable but don't then come out talking about "walking the walk" and pointing the finger at what's bad for the hobby as if you're unbiased or haven't made your name by turning a blind eye to the hobby's biggest ills. you'd have a hard time showing that anyone on this forum has singlehandedly caused more damage than lampson so i find nerat's choice of targets ludicrous.

    "he's in a tough position". i can't imagine that column pays the bills so he's free to walk. doesn't seem so tough to me. either play the shill and live with it or walk away but don't intentionally fail to report about any of lampson's egregious errors and then turn around and lecture people about what's bad for the hobby. michael o'keeffe's column has bigger balls but maybe it's because o'keeffe doesn't waste his efforts trying misdirect blame away from friends and advertisers. SCD doesn't seem to have many fans and i can't help but think it's articles like that that are partially responsible. reading nerat's article was like listening to spitzer talk about how prostitution rings should be shut down. of lampson, he writes that the "knowledge that this guy has in his head, some of you would never be able to comprehend." lampson has been incomprehensible for some time now. personally, i couldn't be more tired of hearing the same old line that gets trotted out by lampson's sycophants: "but he's a football genius!"
    then tell him to stick to football! unfortunately for the hobby, this football genius sticks his paws into everything from baseball to ladies undergarments (i'm sure it has nothing to do with trying to cash in as much as possible regardless of expertise) and every time he does, it results in a mess.

    rudy.

    Comment

    • aeneas01
      Senior Member
      • May 2007
      • 1128

      #47
      Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

      Originally posted by kingjammy24
      robert, in your post you explicitly stated that you had found a myriad of other issues but given the profundity of the 2 main ones, it was pointless to discuss the others. when i read chris nerat's post that lou had found issues that you hadn't, i naturally assumed that you privately conveyed to him the totality of issues you had found and that's what enabled him to know that lou had found issues you hadn't. after all, if chris didn't know all of the issues you found, then how could he possibly know that lou had found ones you hadn't? are you saying you had no such conversation with chris nerat?
      i don't know nerat from adam and have never exchanged one word with the guy - chris ivy of heritage did call me about my findings and to let me know that heritage was going to pull the auction as a result - but i told ivy what i told the forum; that there were a lot of things wrong with the helmet, that imo the lid never belonged to namath and that there was no need to go into detail about these problems given what i had already brought to his attention. did ivy tell nerat about our phone call - did ivy give nerat some bad info - did he misquote me or offer nerat something that he thought i said? who knows.

      and, fwiw, there was a very good reason that i didn't offer ivy more details about the lid - because, frankly, i didn't trust auction houses and didn't want to give heritage something to work with. but after hanging up with ivy, after seeing that he not only took what i had to say seriously but also promptly yanked the auction, i couldn't help but feel that i shouldn't group heritage in with some of the others i've dealt with...
      robert

      Comment

      • aeneas01
        Senior Member
        • May 2007
        • 1128

        #48
        Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

        i forgot to add....

        since nerat didn't respond to my forum question regarding why he would make such a presumptuous claim given that i have not shared my finding with anyone, i decided to post the same question to his blog earlier today - maybe i'll get an answer there:



        regardless if nerat responds or not, i think it's clear that his comments were intended to diminish my opinions while at the same time elevating those of lampson's. poor form imo - especially considering that nerat never bothered to take the time to ask me what it was that i had found...
        robert

        Comment

        • kneerat
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2005
          • 143

          #49
          Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

          aeneas01,
          In response to your question about why I stated that Lou caught things wrong with the helmet that you didn't even catch (he may or may not have)... I am sorry for the mistake and have amended my original blog entry to reflect what actually took place.

          Rudy,
          I will answer any of your questions you posted via a phone call, tomorrow. I would type them out right now, but it is past midnight and I have to get some sleep so I can be ready for my Badgers tomorrow night, Friday's games and March Madness round two weekend.

          Look forward to talking with you.
          chris
          Thank you,
          Chris Nerat

          Comment

          • aeneas01
            Senior Member
            • May 2007
            • 1128

            #50
            Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

            Originally posted by kneerat
            Many board members crucified Heritage for promoting the piece as something it was not, but what they didn’t realize is that Lou never authenticated it and caught all the things wrong with it and many more things that the message board member didn’t even comment on in his original thread.
            that's your amended and improved version chris? that sets the record straight? good grief - no offense, but you are a piece of work my friend. how about this for setting the record straight chris:

            "i intentionally and falsely implied in my blog that i was privy to information that allowed me to confidently state that lampson discovered the same inconsistencies as the guu member and that lampson also discovered many more inconsistencies that the guu member didn't even catch. i intentionally and falsely implied this, even though i had no such knowledge, in an effort to lend more credence to my argument. one could even say that i'm guilty of the same thing heritage is guilty of - jumping the gun in an effort to better position that which i was selling - my argument and point of view. but unlike heritage i didn't act promptly and responsibly by correcting the problem once my errors were brought to my attention - instead i chose to continue to float my sale."

            also chris, at the risk of sounding ungrateful, what up with your "apology"? out of one side of your mouth you apologize for your presumptuous comments yet, in the same breath, you quickly amend your apology by adding that lampson "may or may not have" found many things about the helmet that i didn't "even catch". speaking of presumptions, i presume that you won't take it personally if i just go ahead and pass on your "apology".

            and about your blog today - more specifically, about your following comment in your blog today: "For the original man who photomatched the Namath helmet, I never meant to note that you didn't do a good job on what you discovered."

            no, what you meant to note was that you were privy to all of my findings and were therefore able to recognize that lampson identified each and every one of them and many more to boot. that's what you meant to note chris. and it's perfectly clear why you meant to note this, isn't it?

            speaking of lampson chris - when you made all of those phone calls in order to get to the bottom of this namath thing, did you happen to ask anyone why lampson, heritage's go-to equipment guy, couldn't form a preliminary opinion on the helmet based on the photos alone? why heritage had to wait for him to arrive in dallas before he weighed in on the topic? you wrote in your blog:

            "Keep in mind, Lou Lampson, its game-used equipment authenticator wasn’t scheduled to come in to their Dallas offices until this week, when he will look at all lots for the May Signature sale."

            given heritage's apparent relationship with lampson i find it incomprehensible that heritage wouldn't have contacted him weeks ago about the helmet. any thoughts on this?
            robert

            Comment

            • mvandor
              Banned
              • Apr 2007
              • 1032

              #51
              Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

              Floating the idea that "Green Light" Lou would have kaboshed a $50,000+ sale by refusing authentication on his own on the Namath helmet - if aeneas hadn't documented the basic issues with this helmet so publicly beforehand - is preposterous on its face for anyone that's watched this hobby for more than a week.

              Everything since is simply spin by those that benefit financially from their relationships with the auction house. Personally, I think aeneas put Heritage in a position they had no choice but to pull the item. It speaks volumes about them that they'd promote such a supposed major piece without having it first "authenticated" by Sweet Lou. Frankly, I think auction houses have gotten too cocky about their ability to move millions in bad merchandise and now operate with a "list first, support or pull if challenged later" policy.

              Comment

              • ChrisCavalier
                Paid Users
                • Jan 1970
                • 1967

                #52
                Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

                Hello Robert,

                I have been watching the threads related to the Namath helmet and I will post some more detailed thoughts a bit later today. In the meantime, I wanted to quickly post two thoughts right away:

                1) I, like so many others on the forum, am consistently impressed by your knowledge of game used helmets as well as the value you add to the collecting community through your posts;

                2) I sent that comment, as well as a few other thoughts, to you in an email last Friday. Could you please let me know if you received that email. I haven't heard back from you and I'm wondering if I have your most up-to-date email address.

                Thanks in advance,
                Chris
                Christopher Cavalier
                Consignment Director - Heritage Auctions

                Comment

                • chakes89
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2006
                  • 1706

                  #53
                  Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

                  The main thing I saw from the pictures provided were the 2 little holes beneath the ear hole on each side in the pics from the Super Bowl

                  There was only one hole on each side in the pics of the helmet from the auctions

                  I doubt that helps anyone in anyway but I thought I would throw my cents into this
                  I collect Jay Bruce and Cincinnati Reds Minor League stuff


                  My email address: hakes89@gmail.com

                  Comment

                  • both-teams-played-hard
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2005
                    • 2712

                    #54
                    Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

                    Originally posted by chakes89
                    The main thing I saw from the pictures provided were the 2 little holes beneath the ear hole on each side in the pics from the Super Bowl

                    There was only one hole on each side in the pics of the helmet from the auctions

                    I doubt that helps anyone in anyway but I thought I would throw my cents into this
                    Yes, chakes, that was the initial issue with the helmet. You spotted this by just viewing the pictures. Wouldn't you think a football historian would have noticed this also, without a trip to Dallas?
                    For the record: I am NOT an expert on anything, nor have I ever claimed to be. Folks who claim to be "experts" are flirting with disaster.

                    Comment

                    • CollectGU
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2005
                      • 917

                      #55
                      Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

                      Originally posted by both-teams-played-hard
                      Yes, chakes, that was the initial issue with the helmet. You spotted this by just viewing the pictures. Wouldn't you think a football historian would have noticed this also, without a trip to Dallas?
                      For the record: I am NOT an expert on anything, nor have I ever claimed to be. Folks who claim to be "experts" are flirting with disaster.

                      Why doesn't someone simply ask Chris Ivy if Lou looked at any pictures or did any premilinary work before they put it up in the previews instead of assuming that's what happened or must have happened...Someone should get the proper story from Chris on this and post it..

                      Dave

                      Comment

                      • mvandor
                        Banned
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 1032

                        #56
                        Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

                        Originally posted by CollectGU
                        Why doesn't someone simply ask Chris Ivy if Lou looked at any pictures or did any premilinary work before they put it up in the previews instead of assuming that's what happened or must have happened...Someone should get the proper story from Chris on this and post it..

                        Dave
                        Always the auction houses' #1 advocate here, right Dave? At least you stick up for more than just your fav, AMI, I see.

                        The real question is why SCD chose to spin this story instead of focusing on the huge error by Heritage in so visibly promoting a bad piece - either prematurely before they had it authenticated, or after some preliminary flawed approval by Lou.

                        But then we know why don't we?

                        Comment

                        • CollectGU
                          Senior Member
                          • Nov 2005
                          • 917

                          #57
                          Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

                          Originally posted by mvandor
                          Always the auction houses' #1 advocate here, right Dave? At least you stick up for more than just your fav, AMI, I see.

                          The real question is why SCD chose to spin this story instead of focusing on the huge error by Heritage in so visibly promoting a bad piece - either prematurely before they had it authenticated, or after some preliminary flawed approval by Lou.

                          But then we know why don't we?

                          Mike,

                          Your entire frame of reference for this hobby seems to be the forum, go broaden your horizons a bit.. All I said was somone should get the story of what happened from Chris Ivy...I'm not defending anyone, and personally see it as a big screw up on their part.

                          Comment

                          • mvandor
                            Banned
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 1032

                            #58
                            Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

                            Originally posted by CollectGU
                            Mike,

                            Your entire frame of reference for this hobby seems to be the forum.
                            Not even close, amigo, not even close.

                            Comment

                            • Eric
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 1970
                              • 2848

                              #59
                              Re: Namath's Game Worn Super Bowl Helmet? Nope.

                              Originally posted by kingjammy24


                              rudy.
                              another observation

                              the 6 faded behind the 12 looks to be the same style as the 6 on this roger finnie helmet from american memorabilia which sold in 04. that might support the idea that the "namath helmet" is another jets helmet from that era.
                              Click image for larger version

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                              Always looking for game used San Diego Chargers items...

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