Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

[hblakewolf]

Currently offered on Ebay is a "1983 Pete Rose Spring Training" gamer:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110236994148&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

Authentic Pete Rose Spring Training Baseball Jersey

Nice Piece of Baseball History

Up for auction is an Authentic Pete Rose Spring Training Jersey. This was worn by Pete Rose during the Spring Training Games. This Jersey is a size 42 and was made by Wilson. The stitch on number 83 on the bottom is what shows it’s really worn from him. This was won at the Indiana Sports Charities auction.

So place a bid on this auction and then take a look at our other fantastic baseball auctions that you might be interested in!!!

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Another auction from Auction Bay Online, Consignor965

This shirt has a tremendous amount of issues, especially when compared with other know 1983 Phillies jerseys. When my concerns were noted to the seller, the following response was received:

Dear hblakewolf,

This was given to us personally by Ron Kittle. I trust it is authentic.

- auctionbayonline

Before delving into the problems with this jersey, I'd like to offer an opportunity for other Forum readers to take a stab at identifying the issues.

I've identified 6 major problems!

Have fun!

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[Eric]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

Problem number one as far as I'm concerned- namedropping Ron Kittle.

[Eric]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

I don't know what the Phillies wore in spring training, but in '83 they definitely had names on the back, set tags and a 100 year patch on the left sleeve.

[Eric]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

just saw a shot from spring training and they didn't wear the patch until the regular season

http://pro.corbis.com/popup/Enlargement.aspx?mediauids={4ae3e1cd-b5c0-4fd4-acd6-2665a4261e91}|{ffffffff-ffff-ffff-ffff-ffffffffffff}&qsPageNo=1&fdid=&Area=Search&TotalCount=30&CurrentPos=11&WinID={4ae3e1cd-b5c0-4fd4-acd6-2665a4261e91}

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

"ROSE" should be chain-stitched on a swatch. Right? White zipper issue?

Is there a problem with the lining on the collar and zipper path?

[zonker]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

i'll guess? no name on back white zipper instead of bronze. the label, year tag set# and rose should be in sewm into collar not on tail and possible rose wore goodman jersey's in a larger size?

[karamaxjoe]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

1. No Rose nameplate on back.
2. Wilson tag should be in front tail.
3. Wrong type of zipper.
4. The year tag should have a set with it.
5. Rose wore a size 44
6. Rose shoud be stitched into the collar.

What is Ron Kittle doing with this jersey anyway?

Mike

[33bird]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

I believe Rose wore size 42 and size 44. Depending on the time period, his waistline, and the maker of the jersey. Am I right?
Greg

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

Kittle played in 20 games with the '82 Sox and hit something like .240.

What are the chances that the White Sox played the Phillies in spring training in 1983 and an unknown rookie with a .240 BA was able to get a bp jersey from Pete Rose?

me thinks, the chances are not good.

[Eric]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

I respectfully disagree-

Kittle was a rookie of the year. It's possible he held a charity event and asked teams to donate items and that's what he was given.

Could the Phillies have given some sort of 1983 salesman's sample?

We know from experience here on the forum, that many times star items were given to charity events by legit sources but never saw the field. I don't necessarily discount the story, but the evidence suggests it wasn't actually a gamer.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

I respectfully disagree-

Kittle was a rookie of the year. It's possible he held a charity event and asked teams to donate items and that's what he was given.

Could the Phillies have given some sort of 1983 salesman's sample?

We know from experience here on the forum, that many times star items were given to charity events by legit sources but never saw the field. I don't necessarily discount the story, but the evidence suggests it wasn't actually a gamer.

Kittle has worked to obtain baseball items for charity.
Barry Bonds doesn't like sick children:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2081489

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

Then I guess the question is, did Kittle have an auction in the time frame in which the Phillies may have had an old Rose ST jersey laying around? I'm sure that there must be auction/purchase records if the jersey was bought in that manner.

[hblakewolf]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

Forum Readers-

The Phillies item in question is neither a “spring training” jersey or a jersey that was ever worn on the back of Pete Rose for a single inning.

This particular Rose jersey is one of a number of Wilson salesman's samples that came out in 1983. The samples all had differences from team-issued jerseys, void of NOB with teams that used NOBs (such as here) and consistent chain-stitched "83" box tagging in the tail, but no NIC/NIT or set tagging, even if the team itself used it (a legit Phillies Rose game jersey would have a tail strip tag reading "83 1 or 83 2 (depending on set 1 or set 2). Likewise, ROSE should be embroidered in the collar.

When discussing this with uniform guru Dave Miedema, he mentioned that he has seen others including a Cubs home with 12 on the back, but no collar strip tag, and a Giants road with a number on the back, but NO NOB or tagging other than the boxed 83. According to Dave, he saw these at a card show and upon asking the seller for a history on them, was told they were obtained from a friend at Wilson.

Back in the mid 1980’s, I purchased a similar Rose jersey and also a 1983 Red Sox road with 8 on back. The Rose shirt and tagging was identical to the one currently on Ebay. The Red Sox had the Wilson tag in the collar, the 83 tag in the tail. Both were sold to me as 1983 Wilson salesman samples, and later sold by me as such.

Dave and I are both in agreement, that to the best of our knowledge, 1983 is the only year these year tagged samples were made, and they were limited to teams Wilson supplied at the time.

I’ve taken the liberty of providing a few photos of my 1983 game worn Pete Rose jersey. The differences as compared to the current sample:

• Incorrect size 42. Rose wore size 44 with the Phillies.

• Collar should have a black Swiss embroidered last name ROSE.

• The Wilson tag should be in the tail, directly above the year/set tag, not in separated form in the collar.

• The year tag should also have a set identifier next to it (1 or 2). The only exception to this with modern Wilson brand jerseys was in 1984, when several known gamers only have the year.

• The left sleeve should have the Phillies 100th Anniversary patch.

• The back of the jersey should have ROSE, maroon letters sewn on a white plate.

Thanks to Dave for his insight to this subject.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

Howard - outstanding work as always.....

Jim

[ironmanfan]

Re: Pete Rose 1983 Spring Training Jersey?

there are similar Ripken Jr. salesman sample jersey's from this time period floating around as well (orange alternate version with no NOB).