Hunt Auctions, Huggins & Scott...

[aeneas01]

hunt:

"The attribute that we at Hunt Auctions, Inc. are best known for is our reputation for honesty and integrity. In today's marketplace the old auction adage of "Buyer Beware" has never been more appropriate as the number of unscrupulous dealers and forgers increases daily. We exercise great efforts to secure pieces from reputable sources including former Major League players, estates and private collections."

huggns & scott:

"A Sports Memorabilia Auction Company selling Baseball Cards, Football Cards, Graded Cards, Signed Autographed Vintage Sports, Boxing, Ice Hockey Memorabilia, Non-Sports & Americana Collectibles. WE TAKE IT ALL & WE SELL IT ALL"

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Huggins & Scott - LOT 1288 - 1966-71 Houston Oilers Game-Used #11 Helmet - Starting Bid $200.00
http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...pl?itemid=8891

the two photos on the left show the helmet currently listed at h&s that is said to be an authentic, vintage, oilers gamer - further, h&s claims that it is a riddell helmet. bidding starts at $200. the helmet on the right is a modern nokona youth helmet available today, new, for around $70 or used on ebay for about $40. in short, the helmet h&s claims to be a vintage riddell game used oilers lid is in fact a modern, inexpensive youth helmet made to look like an oilers lid from yesteryear.




fwiw the facemask and chinstrap found on the h&s helmet are reproduction accessories available at helmet hut and the side decals (oil derricks) are modern, thick mil, one piece knockoff vinyl decals readily available on ebay.

here are a couple of links to nokona youth helmets in the event you, or h&s, would like to pick up a few...

http://www.bizrate.com/footballequip...746248669.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nokona-Youth-S-s...3286.m20.l1116

here's a shot of the real deal....




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Hunt Auctions - LOT 581 - University of Michigan game helmet, c.1980s-90s.
http://www.huntauctions.com/phone/im...54&lot_num=581

Description: University of Michigan game helmet, c.1980s-90s. Blue and yellow Riddell VSR-4 helmet as issued for use by U of M. Exhibits extensive usage wear. Player unknown: EX with note to usage wear.



obviously not an authentic michigan gamer - wrong colors, decal wings instead of painted, etc., etc., etc. - you have to wonder if some auction houses don't even realize that high school teams throughout the country mimic college and pro uniforms - or even worse, you have to wonder if some auction houses do realize this but count on the fact that many that are new to collecting don't. god forbid the high school helmets pictured below ever fall into some of their hands...





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[allstarsplus]

Huggins & Scott - LOT 1288 - 1966-71 Houston Oilers Game-Used #11 Helmet - Starting Bid $200.00
http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...pl?itemid=8891


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Robert - The Huggins auction doesn't start until October 5th so all lots are on preview and open for analysis like you did.

I emailed Bill Huggins and I am very confident he will personally look into this and if it doesn't look right will be pulled.

This is how Bill has always handled past issues if you check their history.

Bill is as honest as they come so fear not and expect swift action on this one!

[josh@hugginsandscott.com]

thank you for bringing this to our attention. I will certainly look into it and if, as you say, there is no way that it is a legit Oilers helmet, we will pull it from the auction and return it to the consignor.

thanks again,
Josh Wulkan
VP of Auction Operations
www.hugginsandscott.com

[commando]

One of the main reasons I come to this forum is in hopes of finding a new aeneas01 post. This weekend has kicked off quite well!!!

[aeneas01]

Robert - The Huggins auction doesn't start until October 5th so all lots are on preview and open for analysis like you did. I emailed Bill Huggins and I am very confident he will personally look into this and if it doesn't look right will be pulled. This is how Bill has always handled past issues if you check their history. Bill is as honest as they come so fear not and expect swift action on this one!

i'm very glad to hear that h&s is considered a very reputable and honest auction house - and a vote of confidence from a respected guu member such as yourself goes a very long way in my book.

the thing is i have such a tough time understanding how something like this could possibly happen at a reputable sports memorabilia auction house - and i have a tougher time understanding how something like this could have happened twice before (this helmet previously sold at auction, at least once before at h&s, for $600 & $800).

i mean it's not like this helmet remotely resembles an authentic, vintage riddell helmet from that era - yet h&s clearly states that it is indeed a vintage riddell helmet (presumably because of the riddell logo printed on the reproduction chinstrap). further the h&s lot description states that "extensive research" was performed on the helmet in an effort to determine, among other things, which player from that era wore the number "11" appearing on the helmet.

this would imply that h&s at least noticed the number "11" on the helmet - yet they didn't notice that the oilers never used the type/style of numbering appearing on this helmet?

anyway i'm sure it's just an honest mistake - but when you see something like this that is so obvious you have to question h&s's commitment to detail and/or the scope of their expertise.

...

[allstarsplus]

Robert - I know when I have consigned "Game Used" to them I have been given the option of paying for an authenticator to give a Letter on it which I have done on some more expensive items.

Members of GUF like yourself has done them a great service and you should be commended for that. I am glad Josh jumped on it quickly.

The H&S main office is 20 minutes from my home so I have been able to see many of their pieces. In my opinion, much of their auction is sports cards and their game used items are certainly growing.

It appears to me that you have the most knowledge I have seen in helmets that you ought to think of branching out and do authentications for other auction houses for $$$.

[RKGIBSON]

I agree, the real problem here is that these items made it into the auction. It just tell me that they do not have a clue what they are doing. They may be honest, but not knowledgable.

Roger

[trsent]

I agree, the real problem here is that these items made it into the auction. It just tell me that they do not have a clue what they are doing. They may be honest, but not knowledgable.

Roger

i'm very glad to hear that h&s is considered a very reputable and honest auction house - and a vote of confidence from a respected guu member such as yourself goes a very long way in my book.

the thing is i have such a tough time understanding how something like this could possibly happen at a reputable sports memorabilia auction house - and i have a tougher time understanding how something like this could have happened twice before (this helmet previously sold at auction, at least once before at h&s, for $600 & $800).

i mean it's not like this helmet remotely resembles an authentic, vintage riddell helmet from that era - yet h&s clearly states that it is indeed a vintage riddell helmet (presumably because of the riddell logo printed on the reproduction chinstrap). further the h&s lot description states that "extensive research" was performed on the helmet in an effort to determine, among other things, which player from that era wore the number "11" appearing on the helmet.

this would imply that h&s at least noticed the number "11" on the helmet - yet they didn't notice that the oilers never used the type/style of numbering appearing on this helmet?

anyway i'm sure it's just an honest mistake - but when you see something like this that is so obvious you have to question h&s's commitment to detail and/or the scope of their expertise.

...

I think what is being forgotten here is that the auction houses have a ton of competition trying to find quality items. They are not experts on everything, and some auction houses try hard to be honest and come on here when something is called into question and do the right thing. Then there are some auction houses that read the forum and pull lots when there are issues found. Finally there are the auction houses who do not care what is found to be questionable - They ignore all the facts and pretend Game Used Universe doesn't exist.

This helmet made it through the ropes at Hunt Auctions, this great discussion forum brought it to their attention and they will pull the lot. They were classy enough to come on here and discuss it with us.

Every auction house is going to make an error from time to time, and working with them instead of scaring them away by criticizing them for missing something that may be obvious to some will hurt our reputation.

I have never even remember picking up a Hunt Auctions catalog, but I will tell you I am pleased they joined the discussion about this questionable item and we should keep them in good graces for the next time an error is found in their auction so the work with us unlike many auction houses that prefer to ignore Game Used Universe due to what they feel is unfair abuse (most of it, in the end, is deserved and fair).

[aeneas01]

I think what is being forgotten here is that the auction houses have a ton of competition trying to find quality items. They are not experts on everything, and some auction houses try hard to be honest and come on here when something is called into question and do the right thing. Then there are some auction houses that read the forum and pull lots when there are issues found. Finally there are the auction houses who do not care what is found to be questionable - They ignore all the facts and pretend Game Used Universe doesn't exist.

This helmet made it through the ropes at Hunt Auctions, this great discussion forum brought it to their attention and they will pull the lot. They were classy enough to come on here and discuss it with us.

Every auction house is going to make an error from time to time, and working with them instead of scaring them away by criticizing them for missing something that may be obvious to some will hurt our reputation.

I have never even remember picking up a Hunt Auctions catalog, but I will tell you I am pleased they joined the discussion about this questionable item and we should keep them in good graces for the next time an error is found in their auction so the work with us unlike many auction houses that prefer to ignore Game Used Universe due to what they feel is unfair abuse (most of it, in the end, is deserved and fair).

first, huggins & scott joined this discussion, not hunt. second, both helmets remain listed at their sites. apparently h&s would rather let it ride while they look into it rather than pull it while they do their checking.

also keep in my mind that we're not discussing a vintage memorabilia item that could have easily been misidentified by anyone well versed in vintage sports memorabilia. we're not discussing, for example, an authentic 1960s game used rams suspension helmet made my gladiator that was erroneously listed as an authentic riddell suspension helmet. what we are discussing is a modern, readily available child's helmet, practically a toy, that has been listed by an experienced sports memorabilia auction house as a game used vintage professional model football helmet worn almost 50 years ago - and it was listed as something that was subjected to their "extensive research".

i don't consider this a minor lapse - a harmless oversight resulting from the "ton of competition" they face "trying to find quality items" as you mention. the item of topic is so blatantly and clearly not what h&s claims it to be that i consider it nothing short of a complete and total disregard for the accuracy of their own claims. further, if they are uncertain about the authenticity of an item, they have no business listing it as authentic. this isn't ebay - when a reputable sports memorabilia auction claims that an item is authentic, when it clearly states that "extensive research" has been performed, they better do better than this.

is it admirable that h&s jumped in here to say they would check it out? sure, although it doesn't exactly instill a great deal of confidence in me that something so obviously incorrect requires a fact finding mission. i would have been more impressed if h&s simply took one look at, gasped "how the heck did this toy make it to auction", and removed it immediately.

and, fwiw, i could really care less if an auction house feels alienated by critical posts, feels reluctant to participate in this forum because of what they deem to be harsh treatment. i'm only concerned about the collector - that he/she gets a fair and honest shake and receives what was described, what was advertised. but if i were you i wouldn't spend too much time worrying about auction houses - they are big boys, smart business folks and know how to make money. and that's why they do in fact visit guu.

...

[trsent]

first, huggins & scott joined this discussion, not hunt. second, both helmets remain listed at their sites. apparently h&s would rather let it ride while they look into it rather than pull it while they do their checking.

also keep in my mind that we're not discussing a vintage memorabilia item that could have easily been misidentified by anyone well versed in vintage sports memorabilia. we're not discussing, for example, an authentic 1960s game used rams suspension helmet made my gladiator that was erroneously listed as an authentic riddell suspension helmet. what we are discussing is a modern, readily available child's helmet, practically a toy, that has been listed by an experienced sports memorabilia auction house as a game used vintage professional model football helmet worn almost 50 years ago - and it was listed as something that was subjected to their "extensive research".

i don't consider this a minor lapse - a harmless oversight resulting from the "ton of competition" they face "trying to find quality items" as you mention. the item of topic is so blatantly and clearly not what h&s claims it to be that i consider it nothing short of a complete and total disregard for the accuracy of their own claims. further, if they are uncertain about the authenticity of an item, they have no business listing it as authentic. this isn't ebay - when a reputable sports memorabilia auction claims that an item is authentic, when it clearly states that "extensive research" has been performed, they better do better than this.

is it admirable that h&s jumped in here to say they would check it out? sure, although it doesn't exactly instill a great deal of confidence in me that something so obviously incorrect requires a fact finding mission. i would have been more impressed if h&s simply took one look at, gasped "how the heck did this toy make it to auction", and removed it immediately.

and, fwiw, i could really care less if an auction house feels alienated by critical posts, feels reluctant to participate in this forum because of what they deem to be harsh treatment. i'm only concerned about the collector - that he/she gets a fair and honest shake and receives what was described, what was advertised. but if i were you i wouldn't spend too much time worrying about auction houses - they are big boys, smart business folks and know how to make money. and that's why they do in fact visit guu.

...

So, you do not blame them for leaving the item listed while they investigate your claim and that is your issue? If it was my auction, I would wait to be sure to verify your allegations before pulling the item - Not that you are wrong, but they have to do some homework before pulling a consignors lot - Good or bad. I do not know what the difference is from Hunt and Huggins and Scott, so I do not know what the issue is there.

I think you should appreciate that you will help a collector not end up with a replica item and not continue to harass the auction house for missing an item. People are trusting, and all the complainers who constantly say I defend the auction houses too much are missing the point here - They said they will pull the item and you continue to preach how it should have never got by their authentication process in the first place.

Life goes on, you did a great job and then you continue to state how this should have never passed and you want to punish an auction house for promising to do the right thing.

No big deal to my life, but you should sleep well knowing you helped save an innocent person from buying a suspect item and let sleeping dogs lie. I think that is how the saying goes.