Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

[mvandor]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Game-Used-Joe-Montana-Helmet_W0QQitemZ300257044696QQihZ020QQcategoryZ86828QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Was able to verify the American flag on the helmet rear in a game 3 days prior to the date of the Montana LOA, but placement was different so not the same lid. Further, Getty research seems to indicate Montana wore a Schutt that season with the two air holes on the top on each side and the toothed rear pad which this lid lacks.

Interested in others thoughts on this one. Seller was communicative until I pointed out that issue. The Montana LOA makes it attractive, but the style doesn't seem to fit.

[Bondsgloves]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

I was intrested in the helmet as well at the buy it now price. Problem- the seller sent me additional photo's and the helmet doesn't match up to any photos I researched through Getty or other photos I had from 1990. I don't feel to confident in this item. Letter is cool, but the problem you never know if the letter is to that particular helmet. Seller also just got a negative feedback for selling a fake briefcase.

[RKGIBSON]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

I ask for a close up of the letter so I could read it and compare it to other 49er letters that I have. He never sent one. From the blurry picture of the letter in the ad, there are a couple of things I did not like.

Roger

[aeneas01]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

montana was definitely a bike/schutt guy when he played for the niners (switched to a riddell when he joined the chiefs). but check out getty image #81885194 - montana is clearly sporting a riddell. it appears to be a wd1 and it also has a vacant high chinstrap snap hole just as the one in the ebay ad. heck, looks like a nice match. email the guy and ask for some better photos because the ones he's included in his ad stink. with better photos an actual photo match might be achieved - i have a few better photos of montana from that game that would assist in a match.

gotta love game-used collecting, eh? never seems to be many absolutes! montana wore a bike/schutt for what appears to be all of his career with the niners and all of the 1990 season - yet in december of 1990 at cincinnati he sported a riddell. go figure. did his schutt miss the flight to cincy? did he decide to give riddell a try because, like steve young, was told that it offered better protection vs concussions? perhaps he got his noggin rocked the week before and thought a riddell would offer better protection against the concrete turf in cincinnati. who knows.

whatever the case montana clearly wore a riddell for at least one game. perhaps he tried it out, didn't like it, and it eventually ended up in the hands of the ebay seller. better photos from the seller would be interesting.

robert

[mvandor]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

Seller sent me better images below. I note similarities in the pic you provided although the high chinstrap snap on the side visible in your photo is missing from this lid. Also, your pic does not show the flag decal and I can't verify that until January 1991 on a Schutt (bottom pic below). If this is the lid in your Dec 90 pic, then it was fitted with the decal and lost the snap somewhere after that game. There were however, three more games in that season between the one in your pic and the playoff game in Jan. 2001 (bottom pic below). Possible this lid was fitted with the flag decal before one of those games, and that the snap came off sometime after it left the locker room. Can you get any pics of the subsequent games to try and ID the flag decal on a Riddell?

[aeneas01]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

the flag decals didn't show up until the 1990 playoffs so montana's helmet in the cincy game would not have been fitted with one. the niners did sport the flag in their two playoff games that year (skins & giants) but montana had returned to his air helmet by then. i don't have any photos of the 3 games between the cincy game & the playoffs so i don't know if montana stuck with the riddell in any of those games. but even if he did it would not have been fitted with a flag.

but here's the rub: given montana apparently wore a riddell only in 1990 and for a very short time, what are the odds a letter would match up so well with the helmet for sale? and what are the odds the chinstrap snap location would happen to jive so well with the sf decal and inverted rivet?

could the ebay helmet be the same one montana can be seen wearing in the cincy game? could bronco hinek have spruced it up a bit with the cool new flag knowing that montana intended to give it a buddy as a gift? one thing is for sure, the ebay helmet combined with the letter and a nice, framed blow-up of montana in the cincy game would make for a pretty persuasive game-used collectible imho. assuming, of course, the letter is legit.

...

[trsent]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

the flag decals didn't show up until the 1990 playoffs so montana's helmet in the cincy game would not have been fitted with one. the niners did sport the flag in their two playoff games that year (skins & giants) but montana had returned to his air helmet by then. i don't have any photos of the 3 games between the cincy game & the playoffs so i don't know if montana stuck with the riddell in any of those games. but even if he did it would not have been fitted with a flag.

but here's the rub: given montana apparently wore a riddell only in 1990 and for a very short time, what are the odds a letter would match up so well with the helmet for sale? and what are the odds the chinstrap snap location would happen to jive so well with the sf decal and inverted rivet?

could the ebay helmet be the same one montana can be seen wearing in the cincy game? could bronco hinek have spruced it up a bit with the cool new flag knowing that montana intended to give it a buddy as a gift? one thing is for sure, the ebay helmet combined with the letter and a nice, framed blow-up of montana in the cincy game would make for a pretty persuasive game-used collectible imho. assuming, of course, the letter is legit.

...

If there are no issues with the helmet, and if it is legit, it could have been sitting in the locker room and the flag was put on it after they wore it in a game as it may have been with other helmets awaiting to be worn, but never worn, in a future game.

A safe assumption would be that when they added the flag stickers, all helmets in the equipment room would have been stickered, as maybe they didn't know which helmets would be worn such day?

[RKGIBSON]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

Here is some pictures of a original 49er letter written in about the same time.

The letterhead is in gold with the San Fran outlined in red. Maybe his picture is deceiving, but looks different.

All the 49er letters that I have had, around 20 from different years, have some type of watermark. Some also have embossing. Here is the watermark from the 91 letter. I guess its possible for there to be a different watermark but it has to have one. Held up to the light, like the photo attached, is the best way to see them.

The #1 is different but the rest of the fonts are similar. Maybe just a different typewriter.

Roger

[mvandor]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

I've asked for additional pics to try and photo match the helmet with your pic Robert, as well as the date stamp. If JM used a Riddell for a game or two and knew he wouldn't be going back to it, then it would be understandable it became a giveaway item. I don't believe the Bartolo organization was cheap, so I doubt it would have made waves like it would have elsewhere.

[aeneas01]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

If JM used a Riddell for a game or two and knew he wouldn't be going back to it, then it would be understandable it became a giveaway item. I don't believe the Bartolo organization was cheap, so I doubt it would have made waves like it would have elsewhere.

my sentiments exactly...

[aeneas01]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

sold - buy it now. did a forum member pick it up?

[commando]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

I am not qualified to give an opinion on the helmet itself... I'll leave that to Robert and the experts. However, I will give my professional opinion based on my level of forensics training. First, you must ignore the fact that the letter is written on 49ers letterhead (blank team letterhead can usually be found if you know where to look). Concentrate on the content of the note itself. Would Joe Montana "say" the words written on this letter? I believe the wording of this letter is somewhat suspicious, and gives me the impression it goes out of the way to tell John Q. Reader a story.

"As you know I grabed (sic) it out of my locker especially for you the other day you were here..."

Anyhow, the helmet has been sold and life goes on. I hope the buyer enjoys his purchase.

[lund6771]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

if a forum member bought this helmet and would like some videos to conclusively match it..lmk

If I had to take a guess, I think that "Paul" might be Paul Gaines...he had a lot of niners stuff in the early 90's...I have no idea if they were good or bad, but he had pictures of himself with Montana at Joe's house...I bought a Rice helmet from him back then with a LOA from Rice on Niners paperwork, and it was very similar to his one....

[FastLane80]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

Did anyone read the seller's most recent feedback?

[David]

Re: Joe Montana Game Used Lid?

As far as the letter itself goes, a busy celebrity or businessman could well have a secretary or assistant composing his letters, which he reads over before signs. Also, you could have PSA or JSA look at the letter to judge if it's authentic.