American Memorabilia: Ethics

[sammy]

Noticed this on the AMI web site, and wondered if the recent FBI investigation of shill bidding at auction houses prompted the following disclosure of a practice AMI has always done?

The auction house reserves the right to place a bid on any lot on behalf of the seller. Auction house will not specifically identify bids placed on behalf of the seller.

The seller, and AMI can shill bid the price up and both make more money, while legitimate bidders get ripped off. This is morally, and ethically wrong.

This is also on top of the 20 percent fee to spend your money with them, if you choose.

[trsent]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

Noticed this on the AMI web site, and wondered if the recent FBI investigation of shill bidding at auction houses prompted the following disclosure of a practice AMI has always done?

The auction house reserves the right to place a bid on any lot on behalf of the seller. Auction house will not specifically identify bids placed on behalf of the seller.

The seller, and AMI can shill bid the price up and both make more money, while legitimate bidders get ripped off. This is morally, and ethically wrong.

This is also on top of the 20 percent fee to spend your money with them, if you choose.

A few observations.

First, is this new or has this always been there and we have never seen it?

I assume this policy is for hidden reserves on items, so say they take a consignment that the seller will not sell for less than $20,000 - They start the bidding at $10,000 and the consignor automatically bids it up until the $20,000 bid is met. I assume many other auction houses have the same policies and hidden reserves.

If this is the reason they offer such terms, it would be nice if items with hidden reserves were disclosed. It would make sense. I doubt AMI would ever agree to such terms, but it would make for a more honest environment where people would not accuse them of not being ethical.

[sammy]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

Joel,

The disclaimer itself is new, as it is on every category page and it would have been noticed and questioned long ago.

The practice itself is not new, and I don't believe it has anything to do with hitting a reserve.

Per your scenario, if the consignor bids it up to the reserve, then they are on the hook for the 20 percent buyer's fee unless someone else bids, as well as the consignment fee.

It is just flat out, dishonest shill bidding, and I would concur that many other auction houses have, or had the same policy.

[buc]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

Actually, ethical auction houses place reserves on items, just like reserves you see on ebay. This is a common practice for auction house like Huggins and Scott, Heritage, and a few others. I'll give you a nice little story about a not so ethical auction house that may or may not be the one listed in the title here. A few years ago, a Babe Ruth single signed ball that was of mediocre grade was placed on auction with this auction house. The ball is/was about a $10,000 ball. The consignor called the auction house with about a week left to go in the auction and the ball was bid up to around $4,000. The consignor spoke with the OWNER of this auction house and complained, saying he could have sold the ball for, and I quote, $14,000 on ebay. The owner said not to worry, it will get that high. The morning the auction was to end, the price was still in the $4,000 range with 3 bidders. The ball sold that night for $14,000 with 4 bidders.

[skipcarayislegend]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

The consignor spoke with the OWNER of this auction house and complained, saying he could have sold the ball for, and I quote, $14,000 on ebay. The owner said not to worry, it will get that high. The morning the auction was to end, the price was still in the $4,000 range with 3 bidders. The ball sold that night for $14,000 with 4 bidders.

AM's Luckman jersey ends tonight. As of 12:30 pm EST today, it's at $31,386 with 13 bids. Long way to go before it hits $100,000 (and then some, according to Moreno). But something tells me we'll see a final number close to Victor's prediction. Good luck, bidders!

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=45086

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

But something tells me we'll see a final number close to Victor's prediction. Good luck, bidders!

I am in my computer office right now. I can see my current AMI catalog on the coffee table in the living room. This makes me an expert on sports memorabilia auction houses. This also gives me expert knowledge on vintage Bears jerseys. Since, I am an expert, I will have to agree with Skip that the final bid price will be determined by whoever is allowed to place the high bid.

[skipcarayislegend]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

I am in my computer office right now. I can see my current AMI catalog on the coffee table in the living room. This makes me an expert on sports memorabilia auction houses. This also gives me expert knowledge on vintage Bears jerseys. Since, I am an expert, I will have to agree with Skip that the final bid price will be determined by whoever is allowed to place the high bid.

Excellent, but how big is your auction house catalog archive? I have 8,000+ in mine, which makes me a more expert expert.

[lund6771]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

Joel,

The disclaimer itself is new, as it is on every category page and it would have been noticed and questioned long ago.

The practice itself is not new, and I don't believe it has anything to do with hitting a reserve.

Per your scenario, if the consignor bids it up to the reserve, then they are on the hook for the 20 percent buyer's fee unless someone else bids, as well as the consignment fee.

It is just flat out, dishonest shill bidding, and I would concur that many other auction houses have, or had the same policy.

I have never seen a bigger pile of shit than this so called "disclaimer"

So collectors are suppossed to trust these same guys who tell you that you will be paid in a month?....and you're lucky to see your money in 6?

At least publish the fucking reserve!!!!...

I can see it later tonight...Victor's consignor buddies (both of them) will call in and decide where to sell their piece at...."let's see if we can get this guy to go up another bid Victor"...."No problem, if they don't bid it again we'll get them on the max bid or call them in a few days and tell them that the high bidder backed out if you want"

I hope the FBI is reading all this!!!!!!!!

[trsent]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

That Michael O'Keeffe article is funny because a "collectibles dealer who works closely with American Memorabilia" was all over my case via private emails when I posted that the jersey has a number change which was never disclosed until I posted in on Game Used Universe's forum.

Since then, the jersey is properly advertised with the number change, but this dealer who "works closely with American Memorabilia" told me he didn't own the jersey but was very concerned that I was trying to sabotage the item, which I never was. He told me he had offered the seller $40,000 for the jersey but it got consigned to AMI.

I was just stating a fact but he took it the wrong way. I guess since he said he had no interest in the jersey it shouldn't have mattered, right?

[trsent]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

Actually, ethical auction houses place reserves on items, just like reserves you see on ebay. This is a common practice for auction house like Huggins and Scott, Heritage, and a few others. I'll give you a nice little story about a not so ethical auction house that may or may not be the one listed in the title here. A few years ago, a Babe Ruth single signed ball that was of mediocre grade was placed on auction with this auction house. The ball is/was about a $10,000 ball. The consignor called the auction house with about a week left to go in the auction and the ball was bid up to around $4,000. The consignor spoke with the OWNER of this auction house and complained, saying he could have sold the ball for, and I quote, $14,000 on ebay. The owner said not to worry, it will get that high. The morning the auction was to end, the price was still in the $4,000 range with 3 bidders. The ball sold that night for $14,000 with 4 bidders.

I think the concern here is shouldn't the auction houses be forced to publish "Reserve Not Met" such as eBay does so all can see it? I believe the issues here are that bidders are bidding against a blind, hidden reserve so they think they are bidding against another high bid and do not realize it may be a reserve.

People assume this new clause means there will be shill bidding. I have no clue about that, I just assumed it meant there were hidden reserves.

Someone should call AMI today to find out for sure and publish their findings here. I am going to bed, so I am not calling them again today!

[mvandor]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

I have never seen a bigger pile of shit than this so called "disclaimer"

Umm, I wouldn't have put it quite that way, but that was generally my reaction. Obviously such an action should simply be ILLEGAL, disclaimer be damned. That's why the entire reserve concept came into being, or just start the bidding at a base minimum as has been done since auctions were run by fast talkin' hillbillies.

[buc]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

I understand the concern. The ethical ones do have Reserve Not Met published on the individual item pages, or allow bidding up until there is one week left. If the reserve is not met by that time, all bids are deleted and a new minimum bid required (say bidding was up to $1400, but the reserve is $2000, they erase all bids and the new minimum bid is $2000.)

[otismalibu]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

People assume this new clause means there will be shill bidding. I have no clue about that, I just assumed it meant there were hidden reserves.

I recently talked to a guy that had an item listed with a major auction house and he said he'd be buying the piece back if it didn't get the price he wanted. That sounds more like he'd be bidding on his own item, rather than having a hidden reserve, IMO.

[trsent]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

I recently talked to a guy that had an item listed with a major auction house and he said he'd be buying the piece back if it didn't get the price he wanted. That sounds more like he'd be bidding on his own item, rather than having a hidden reserve, IMO.

I have been told in some states that a consignor has the right to bid on their own items. I have never looked up the laws myself, but I believe in California and New York State a consignor has the right to bid on their own items if the auction house permits it.

I understand why an auction house would have no problem with a consignor bidding as long as they paid all fees both ways. I know some people will find this wrong, but as an auction house you get your money either way so why would you care as long as no state or federal laws were being broken?

Then again, breaking laws in a whole other story.

[lund6771]

Re: American Memorabilia: Ethics

I have been told in some states that a consignor has the right to bid on their own items. I have never looked up the laws myself, but I believe in California and New York State a consignor has the right to bid on their own items if the auction house permits it.

I understand why an auction house would have no problem with a consignor bidding as long as they paid all fees both ways. I know some people will find this wrong, but as an auction house you get your money either way so why would you care as long as no state or federal laws were being broken?

Then again, breaking laws in a whole other story.

I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with this as long as everything is on the up and up...if I consigned my collection to an auction, and everything was going pretty low, I'd feel that I should have the right to buy back my own stuff as long as I paid the fees both ways...if we, auction house and I, conspired to drive up prices and then sell to the second bidder, that's a whoel different story