Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Here is a link to Tim Grover's Gym:

http://www.attackathletics.com/

I also found this picture of Dwyane Wade working out at Attack Athletics. How did this AP Photo originate if there is a no camera policy?



Miami Heat guard Dwyane Wade works out with personal trainer Tim Grover at Attack Athletics, trying to get his left knee in shape to make the U.S. Olympic basketball team and participate in the upcoming summer Olympics, Friday, May 16, 2008, in Chicago.

5 months ago from AP Photo by M. Spencer Green

I also found this picture taken inside Attack Athletics on April 13, 2008:



Chicago Bulls Jr. NBA/Jr. WNBA Skills Challenge

CHICAGO - APRIL 13: Contestants of a Chicago Bulls sponsored Jr. NBA/Jr. WNBA Skills Challenge competition gather for a group photo at Attack Athletics April 13, 2008 in Chicago, Illinois. NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that, by downloading and/or using this Photograph, user is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement. Mandatory Copyright Notice: Copyright 2008 NBAE (Photo by Randy Belice/NBAE via Getty Images)

So, photos have been taken inside the gym. I never doubted that the gym is used by NBA players but I also doubt they wore custom made jerseys for a Las Vegas trainer (boy, that story changed from the origin of this debate) to take from each player and have them autograph with what is now deemed suspect autographs. So what if players went to the gym after an episode on Oprah? That doesn't mean they went there for a secret, double practice that they all wore specially made jerseys that are different from any other jersey the players have ever worn in organized practices.

You ask us to trust you. I do not know you except from when you were young and used to sell me hockey sticks outside of the Chicago Stadium. I do know the past with David Archibald has issues that led him to be suspended from this forum for promoting items that raise too many questions. You should have let Chris Ivy handle this from the start and the question would have never escalated to this level.

Chris Ivy says no one but him has contacted me to date over these jerseys speaking on behalf of Heritage Auctions.

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

6. Player LOA and photo: Joel, you have declared these two items to be worthless. You say that players do people favors. If you are going to call the player a liar, and say they are wrong, that is your choice. I will bet that the majority of people will trust the player over Joel Alpert, especially since you have shown an inability to accept that maybe you are wrong, and even an inability to read for that matter (see: NO CAMERAS ALLOWED!).

So, please explain the two photos I found in a matter of five minutes searching the web?

Do not call me a lair, I just asked for proof and was abused (never threatened, sorry if there was some confusion, five emails from David Archibald in a short time was threatening) and Heritage Auctions has never proved that I am wrong. They have ignored the questions about PSA/DNA and since David Archibald had similar shoes that were unable to authenticate I am beginning to figure out that Heritage Auctions may list an item that PSA/DNA finds unable to authenticate if JSA - A non Pre-Certified eBay company - will authenticate.

Weakness is when you attack the questioner and do not prove anything except for ranting on and on without proving anything. You keep talking about a no camera policy, but I found a picture from a private workout and from a children's event at the gym that were published on Getty Images and the Associate Press.

[mvandor]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

So, please explain the two photos I found in a matter of five minutes searching the web?

Do not call me a lair, I just asked for proof and was abused (never threatened, sorry if there was some confusion, five emails from David Archibald in a short time was threatening) and Heritage Auctions has never proved that I am wrong. They have ignored the questions about PSA/DNA and since David Archibald had similar shoes that were unable to authenticate I am beginning to figure out that Heritage Auctions may list an item that PSA/DNA finds unable to authenticate if JSA - A non Pre-Certified eBay company - will authenticate.

Weakness is when you attack the questioner and do not prove anything except for ranting on and on without proving anything. You keep talking about a no camera policy, but I found a picture from a private workout and from a children's event at the gym that were published on Getty Images and the Associate Press.

Joel, we all know JSA is as reputable as PSA in the guessing game of third party authentication, so why are you obsessing over that triviality? Frankly, this is starting to look like a personal matter between you and these guys or the auction house. If they produce the photos and LOA they say they will, let the buyer make his own judgement on that basis.

[wjonesIII]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

I want to clear something up. First, Tim Grover's gym does have a no camera policy. Those photos ae the exception, not the rule.

More importantly, Heritage made an error by saying te trainer from the Las Vegas practice facility. The trainer was at the Las Vegas practice facility with the players, but is not a trainer there. He is a trainer at Grover's gym, and is a personal trainer for the NBA players. He was in Vegas at the practice facilities when he got the jerseys in hand, which is why we at first thought they were worn in Vegas.

I am not speaking on behalf of Heritage. I am speaking on behalf of the owners of these jerseys. Your personal vendetta against Heritage brought these jerseys into it, and you couldn't handle another opinion. Obviously, we are going to be able to address your concerns as well as Heritage.

Last, nowhere did I write they wore these jerseys after the Olympics. I just stated the players played and worked out in the gym all week while they were in Chicago, and I don't see any media reports about those workouts. If the media covers LeBron and Kobe "when they cross the street," then according to your logic there should be all kinds of post Olympic coverage of the players being at the gym (and pictures). But where are they. if it wasn't covered post Olympics, then it makes sense they weren't covered pre-Olympics either.

The Wade picture was with a story about Wade, and there was likely special permission from Wade take that picture. Your other image is of kids, not of professional athletes. How many times have the players been in Grover's gym in the last ten years? And how many pictures can you find of those events? It is a small fraction.

[otismalibu]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

What's the Vegas line on this thread still being at the top of the page when the 2012 squad starts scrimmaging?

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Joel, we all know JSA is as reputable as PSA in the guessing game of third party authentication, so why are you obsessing over that triviality? Frankly, this is starting to look like a personal matter between you and these guys or the auction house. If they produce the photos and LOA they say they will, let the buyer make his own judgement on that basis.

Michael Vandor, thanks for your opinion. If PSA/DNA denied authentication of the autographs, and the guy claiming to be the originator and the guy claiming to be the consignor have a history of items with autographs that are unable to authenticate - Why don't you leave my thread alone and worry about your own concerns?

There is no issues here, I emailed Chris Ivy again this morning and I also emailed someone to shed some light on this issue who knows more about any secret, private practices than anyone.

Again, if you do not feel the same concern I do, because if PSA/DNA did deny the authentication and Chris Ivy is ignoring my question because of this, he is hiding information that is not fair to the buyer and to my client who asked me to look into this lot.

You can claim PSA/DNA and JSA are the same thing - That is your view. eBay doesn't accept JSA as an authenticator. That is a concern to me why Chris Ivy has ignored my question about this. If they use both authenticators, and the alleged consignor and originator have a history of items that are unable to authenticate, I still feel there is an issue.

If there is anything else you wish to chime in to help what appears to possibly be a fraudulent $5000 plus transaction in my eyes, please have some evidence and not just you picking on me as it is really annoying to be picked on by the same people each time I am giving an opinion or having a discussion.

My email address is below if you have any further concerns. Understand?

[wjonesIII]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Joel, we all know JSA is as reputable as PSA in the guessing game of third party authentication, so why are you obsessing over that triviality? Frankly, this is starting to look like a personal matter between you and these guys or the auction house. If they produce the photos and LOA they say they will, let the buyer make his own judgement on that basis.

Thank you. He is attacking JSA to prove the signatures wrong. He forgets that these athletes have likely signed a limited amount of signatures in front of JSA or PSA, so they are relying on exemplars to form an opinion, not on if the signatures are or are not real. The way I view this (because I know where the signatures came from), is that JSA has better exemplars of these athletes signatures. Still, JSA not passing the shoes doesn't make them fake! Joel, you sound like a fool because you use JSA as an example for why the shoes are fake in your opinion (because JSA didn't pass them), but then you flip flop and accuse JSA of being wrong on the jerseys? You either trust them or you don't. You can't use them as an example both ways!!!!!!

Last, the attacks that David Archibald about fake autographs now? GUU did not kick David off for having Pujols signatures that were unable t authenticate (but came directly from Albert's first cousin, who was in the same St. Louis Cardinals system). He was banned for baiting and attacking others (including the moderators) who baited and attacked him. You can verify that with the moderators. It had nothing to do with signatures.

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

I want to clear something up. First, Tim Grover's gym does have a no camera policy. Those photos ae the exception, not the rule.

More importantly, Heritage made an error by saying te trainer from the Las Vegas practice facility. The trainer was at the Las Vegas practice facility with the players, but is not a trainer there. He is a trainer at Grover's gym, and is a personal trainer for the NBA players. He was in Vegas at the practice facilities when he got the jerseys in hand, which is why we at first thought they were worn in Vegas.

I am not speaking on behalf of Heritage. I am speaking on behalf of the owners of these jerseys. Your personal vendetta against Heritage brought these jerseys into it, and you couldn't handle another opinion. Obviously, we are going to be able to address your concerns as well as Heritage.

Last, nowhere did I write they wore these jerseys after the Olympics. I just stated the players played and worked out in the gym all week while they were in Chicago, and I don't see any media reports about those workouts. If the media covers LeBron and Kobe "when they cross the street," then according to your logic there should be all kinds of post Olympic coverage of the players being at the gym (and pictures). But where are they. if it wasn't covered post Olympics, then it makes sense they weren't covered pre-Olympics either.

The Wade picture was with a story about Wade, and there was likely special permission from Wade take that picture. Your other image is of kids, not of professional athletes. How many times have the players been in Grover's gym in the last ten years? And how many pictures can you find of those events? It is a small fraction.

Mr. Jones, see the guys who like to abuse me on this forum have chimed in this morning. I hope that makes you happy. They always pick on me when I am having a debate or discussion. No big deal.

All I see are more errors and more stories about this lot. I will continue to peruse the truth as your story has changed from the first post on this forum to the last post. No one doubts Tim Grover's gym as being legitimate. I received an interesting email from an auction house executive this morning that I found interesting. It reads:

They are idiots, WJONESIII was the biggest Jordan crook/forger there was, he was not even good at it. He may have a legtimate source with Derrick Rose, but i personally saw the Jordan shoes he got from Tim Grover and the sigs were fake. He may have gotten the shoes from Tim Grover but they were not signed. You should call Tim Grover.

I found this email very interesting to come from an executive with a major auction house. Maybe it is time you stop your daily story which changes every time you get a chance.

Let me and Chris Ivy figure this out. Maybe if I find the information I am looking for I will forward it to a government office for further investigation as this is getting silly to debate with you anymore as Heritage Auctions is responsible for this lot to be legitimate.

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Thank you. He is attacking JSA to prove the signatures wrong. He forgets that these athletes have likely signed a limited amount of signatures in front of JSA or PSA, so they are relying on exemplars to form an opinion, not on if the signatures are or are not real. The way I view this (because I know where the signatures came from), is that JSA has better exemplars of these athletes signatures. Still, JSA not passing the shoes doesn't make them fake! Joel, you sound like a fool because you use JSA as an example for why the shoes are fake in your opinion (because JSA didn't pass them), but then you flip flop and accuse JSA of being wrong on the jerseys? You either trust them or you don't. You can't use them as an example both ways!!!!!!

Last, the attacks that David Archibald about fake autographs now? GUU did not kick David off for having Pujols signatures that were unable t authenticate (but came directly from Albert's first cousin, who was in the same St. Louis Cardinals system). He was banned for baiting and attacking others (including the moderators) who baited and attacked him. You can verify that with the moderators. It had nothing to do with signatures.

There you go again, when your arguments are weak, call the debator a "fool".

Sir, please, let Heritage Auctions handle this issue - You are really making it clear that you are posting for David Archibald - Like pointing us to his John Elway jersey to give it publicity - and David Archibald is not allowed to post on this forum because he is an abusive person with an alleged history of forged autographs.

That last comment comes from talking to those in the industry who know more than you or I.

Now, do you wish to personally attack my character more or will you let Heritage Auctions handle this situation as I have asked of you over and over again.

JSA is not pre-certified to authenticate autographs on eBay. I do not mind their service, but if a company uses both JSA and PSA/DNA - If PSA/DNA denied the autographs the auction house should not keep this a secret if asked about it and Chris Ivy has ignored the question for days and days now.

[buc]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/auth-overview.html

Joel,
Attached is the link for pre-approved ebay authenticators. If you look under autographs, you will see JSA. To me, and this is my personal opinion, JSA is better than PSA. Again, that is my personal opinion.

[wjonesIII]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

You can claim PSA/DNA and JSA are the same thing - That is your view. eBay doesn't accept JSA as an authenticator. That is a concern to me why Chris Ivy has ignored my question about this.

My email address is below if you have any further concerns. Understand?

Don't email Joel, he will accuse you of making threats!

Again though, Joel makes a dumb statement! Joel, how many lies and errors are you going to make in one thread. eBay approves JSA. Are you just not taking the time to read? SEE BELOW and quit saying things that are so stpid, like how eBay doesn't accept JSA as an authenticator:

"Authentication and grading services can help you evaluate an item. For a small fee, an independent, experienced evaluator can help examine a listing on eBay and point out potential problems.

About authentication and grading services

Buyers can get an item evaluated before purchasing it or get an evaluation of a recently purchased item. Sellers can boost bidder confidence by having items pre-authenticated before listing an item. Sellers can promote the fact that an independent expert has approved the item, which lets bidders know that the item has been examined by an experienced professional who has pledged to provide an unbiased opinion.
Authentication services : Authentication helps determine whether an item is genuine and described appropriately. Experts can often detect counterfeits from subtle details. However, two expert authenticators can have different opinions on the authenticity of the same item.
Grading services: Grading is a way of determining the physical condition of an item. The grading system depends on the type of item being graded.
Authentication companies

The authentication companies listed here are professional, independent evaluators. We’ve obtained a pledge from these evaluators that they will offer their services to both buyers and sellers, and that they will maintain independence from any individual party. The authenticators have pledged not to buy or sell on eBay's core site, keeping them out of competition with the buyers and sellers they are serving. They have also promised to provide eBay users with competitive prices.

List of authentication companies

General

For an online appraiser, contact What's It Worth To You.

For a local appraiser, contact the International Society of Appraisers.

Autographs

Authenticate sports autographs and memorabilia with:
Global Authentication
James Spence Authentication
OnlineAuthentics.com
Authenticate sports autographs with PSA/DNA."


RIGHT THERE. eBay not only approves JSA, they provide a link to his website and say "authenticate autographs" with them and the other three You spend so much time trying to prove me wrong, that you prove yourself wrong.

[wjonesIII]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Another good one:

"Authentication services : Authentication helps determine whether an item is genuine and described appropriately. Experts can often detect counterfeits from subtle details. However, two expert authenticators can have different opinions on the authenticity of the same item."

Right there from eBay...JSA is accepted and promoted by eBay, and eBay makes it a point to educate people like Joel that the authenticators are experts who can have different opinions on the same item.

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/auth-overview.html

Joel,
Attached is the link for pre-approved ebay authenticators. If you look under autographs, you will see JSA. To me, and this is my personal opinion, JSA is better than PSA. Again, that is my personal opinion.

Ok, I see what you found. Your page is not for the eBay Pre-Certified Catagory - It is for 3rd party authentictors. JSA is not eBay pre-Certified, but eBay offers them a link for authentication.

This is fine - I still wish to know if PSA/DNA denied the autographs as Chris Ivy ignored this question for some suspicious reason.

I personally have no problem with JSA, but I find when I sell similar items with one or the other I always get more money for a PSA/DNA certified item.

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Another good one:

"Authentication services : Authentication helps determine whether an item is genuine and described appropriately. Experts can often detect counterfeits from subtle details. However, two expert authenticators can have different opinions on the authenticity of the same item."

Right there from eBay...JSA is accepted and promoted by eBay, and eBay makes it a point to educate people like Joel that the authenticators are experts who can have different opinions on the same item.

Sir, once again, your facts are wrong, I proved it in the post above.

JSA is not eBay Pre-Certified they are available on a list of 3rd party authenticators, but they are not Pre-Certified.

MY QUESTION IS DID PSA/DNA FAIL TO AUTHENTICATE THESE AUTOGRAPHS - IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JSA - THE FACTS ARE SIMPLE AND THE MAIN QUESTION HAS BEEN IGNORED BY CHRIS IVY - WHY?

Mr. Jones, keep posting, but I am not going to play your games anymore. I will wait for evidence to come up because this has now because something that I care very much to show may not be what is advertised as there are some issues that have been ignored about history here.

Your letter from an NBA player or photograph is still worthless to me. It appears you have friends, but also that you do not believe rules of integrity.

Why can't you just let Heritage Auctions handle this already? It is their lot - Not yours. You have nothing to do with it according to an email I received from Heritage Auctions.

[buc]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Not to get to far off topic, but if you list an item under autographs and you have the option to list who it was authenticated by, ebay gives you the options of JSA, PSA, GAI, or other. I think this makes them pre-certified. ebay would not have that option if they were not pre-certified. I've had the exact opposite as far as sales go. I always get more for JSA, so now, even if I buy something that has PSA paperwork, I send it to JSA for duplicate authentication and put JSA in my title!