Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

[wjonesIII]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

I agree that Heritage should have let people know that PSA/DNA did not pass the autographs, for the sake of honesty. At the same time, if PSA/DNA didn't pass the signatures, it does not mean the signatures are fake.

The MJ shoes did not come from Tim Grover. They came from his employee.

Last, the email from the auction house executive was likely from American Memorabila. AMI has a personal issue with both of us, so that is not a good source to go by. Call up Mastro, ask for Bill Mastro, and ask him how many great Michael Jordan items he got in the 1990's from the same source? And ask him who would take him to Bulls games with Jordan's personal tickets, and introduce him to MJ at the game?

[wjonesIII]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

I do not know if PSA/DNA examined the signatures, or not.

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Not to get to far off topic, but if you list an item under autographs and you have the option to list who it was authenticated by, ebay gives you the options of JSA, PSA, GAI, or other. I think this makes them pre-certified. ebay would not have that option if they were not pre-certified. I've had the exact opposite as far as sales go. I always get more for JSA, so now, even if I buy something that has PSA paperwork, I send it to JSA for duplicate authentication and put JSA in my title!

Sorry, eBay doesn't offer JSA as Pre-Certified. You can type in any name you want in the Guaranteed Authentic box. The facts are clear - eBay may offer links to the JSA web site, but as for Authenticator Pre-Certified, JSA doesn't make the list and I have no idea why.

See this link:

http://pages.ebay.com/apc/form.html

If you click the list of authenticators, JSA is not there.

I am not here to debate if JSA is right or wrong - I just wish Chris Ivy answered my question is PSA/DNA was unable to authenticate the autographs.

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

I agree that Heritage should have let people know that PSA/DNA did not pass the autographs, for the sake of honesty. At the same time, if PSA/DNA didn't pass the signatures, it does not mean the signatures are fake.

The MJ shoes did not come from Tim Grover. They came from his employee.

Last, the email from the auction house executive was likely from American Memorabila. AMI has a personal issue with both of us, so that is not a good source to go by. Call up Mastro, ask for Bill Mastro, and ask him how many great Michael Jordan items he got in the 1990's from the same source? And ask him who would take him to Bulls games with Jordan's personal tickets, and introduce him to MJ at the game?

Who? Wes?

[wjonesIII]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Wes? Which comment are you referring to?

[wjonesIII]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

All I see are more errors and more stories about this lot. I will continue to peruse the truth as your story has changed from the first post on this forum to the last post. No one doubts Tim Grover's gym as being legitimate. I received an interesting email from an auction house executive this morning that I found interesting. It reads:

They are idiots, WJONESIII was the biggest Jordan crook/forger there was, he was not even good at it. He may have a legtimate source with Derrick Rose, but i personally saw the Jordan shoes he got from Tim Grover and the sigs were fake. He may have gotten the shoes from Tim Grover but they were not signed. You should call Tim Grover.

I found this email very interesting to come from an executive with a major auction house. Maybe it is time you stop your daily story which changes every time you get a chance.

Was this email from American Memorabilia?

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Wes? Which comment are you referring to?

I am going to bed. It is my bedtime. Have a great day.

By the way, Mr. Jones. I do not know you except for being told that you used to sell my hockey sticks back in the early 1990s. I only know Bill Mastro from poker games in the late 1980s through the early 1990s. He seems like a really nice guy.

I have been emailed about you and your history by several people since you came on here to defend your jerseys that I simply originally only asked for photos to match. This whole situation would have been ignored if you had kept out of it, as Chris Ivy's original reply would have ended the conversation. I am sorry people have contacted me about other items from similar sources with issues.

As usual, when David Archibald is involved there is unnecessary controversy. I am sorry if this got out of hand. I will let you know if I have any further findings.

You can debate your hatred of any autograph authenticators until the end of time. They give an opinion that this industry works with and if they are concerned about autographs authenticity I am also concerned.

[mvandor]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Michael Vandor, thanks for your opinion. If PSA/DNA denied authentication of the autographs, and the guy claiming to be the originator and the guy claiming to be the consignor have a history of items with autographs that are unable to authenticate - Why don't you leave my thread alone and worry about your own concerns?

Because you've reached raving lunatic status in this thread, which I assume is what lead to your long previous hiatus from here before. You don't want input don't post on a message board compadre.

[wjonesIII]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

I never said I hated any authenticator, I just said they all make errors.

Joel, you can keep on using the word integrity, but you are the one going on a public message board, posting anonymous slanderous emails about people for all to see. That is not right, and you are allowing someone making serious accusations to remain anonymous. I could write on here that three people emailed me and said Joel forges Tiger Woods autographs, but it wouldn't make it true.

Does anyone else find it unfair that Joel is accusing two people here of dealing in forged autographs, and not citing any sources? It's pretty easy to come onto a board and say that people emailed you this and that. You want proof of the USA jerseys, but where is your proof?

The MJ shoes were already signed when the trainer gave us the shoes. He said he had just worked out MJ, and that MJ gave him the shoes he wore and signed them. Therefore, I think the shoes and the autographs are real.

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

I never said I hated any authenticator, I just said they all make errors.

Joel, you can keep on using the word integrity, but you are the one going on a public message board, posting anonymous slanderous emails about people for all to see. That is not right, and you are allowing someone making serious accusations to remain anonymous. I could write on here that three people emailed me and said Joel forges Tiger Woods autographs, but it wouldn't make it true.

Does anyone else find it unfair that Joel is accusing two people here of dealing in forged autographs, and not citing any sources? It's pretty easy to come onto a board and say that people emailed you this and that. You want proof of the USA jerseys, but where is your proof?

The MJ shoes were already signed when the trainer gave us the shoes. He said he had just worked out MJ, and that MJ gave him the shoes he wore and signed them. Therefore, I think the shoes and the autographs are real.

Sir, I quoted an email I received that I will not be posting who emailed me. Please drop it or get a court order. No one can email you, your email is hidden and you have never posted it on this forum.

I have never been accused of intentionally doctoring any item in this industry. I am sorry your name has come up but you should have never become involved with this thread if you cannot take the heat.

I am sorry your shoes have an autograph that 3rd party authenticators have been unable to authenticate. This is not my problem, it just leads to more questions that I really do not care to answer.

I just got off the phone with another industry insider who praised David Archibald and said he may be too trusting of others in this industry and that Mr. Archibald does not appear to be causing any trouble intentionally. I found that really interesting, because I respect the person who told me this. I have emailed David Archibald about this and I hope him and I can come to a mature resolution.

I wish when David Archibald emailed me he had not sent four emails in a matter of minutes to make me think he is insane. Maybe Heritage Auctions is to blame for not doing enough research to properly describe this lot from the very start.

I can tell you this - The more and more you post the more and more questions that arise.

I am going to bed, I just turned off the ringer on my phone and I am taking Michael Vandor's advice and cooling it. I already asked GUU to review this thread and lock it if they find no reason for it to continue in this never-ending circle.

I will gladly post any new findings down the road.

[lund6771]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Was this email from American Memorabilia?

Are they still in business?

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Below are the four emails between myself and Tim Grover, the man who owns the gym at allegedly the Team USA practiced at where all 12 members of the team wore special USA jerseys during practices. Please note - William Jones III has told us that the jerseys that originally came from a Las Vegas trainer, then came from privative full practices at Tim Grover's gym. If Tim Grover states that the entire USA Men's Basketball Team never was at the gym at one time - What will a letter from a player add to this debate? Nothing, because there is something wrong with these jerseys. I have notified Chris Ivy of my email correspondence found below, but since he has ignored my emails asking if PSA/DNA examined the signatures I figure he will ignore my latest evidence.

The emails:

From: Joel Alpert [mailto:joel@alpert.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 7:59 AM
To: info@attackathletics.com
Subject: Attn: Tim Grover

Mr. Grover, please forgive me for bothering you, but I have had some concerns about some alleged practice worn shoes and jerseys that a gentleman, William Jones III, has clamed were worn by the last USA Olympic Basketball Team at workouts in your gym in 2007. The jerseys can be found in the just completed Heritage Auctions listing found in this link: http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo

Now, after asking questions of Heritage Auctions Galleries and on a well known sports memorabilia forum, Game Used Universe, I have been approached by David Archibald and William Jones III. Mr. Archibald is the consignor and Mr. Jones claims to be the originator. They tell me that these jerseys were worn and autographed at private practices attended by all twelve members of the 2008 USA Olympic Men’s Basketball Team at your gym.

Since there is no media relating to these private practices attended by the whole team, I bring it to your attention to ask to help us verify the authenticity of these alleged practice used, autographed jerseys. If you could confirm that the entire USA Dream Team practiced at your gym and they wore custom made jerseys at these practices, it would really help identity these jerseys as being authentic or not.

The main issue I have is that William Jones III and David Archibald has recently had several items being sold on the marketplace with autographs that do not pass third party authentication and the autographs on these jerseys are being questioned. Your reply will not make you liable for the authenticity, but it may help clear up an issue in the sports memorabilia hobby.

If you need a reference on me, I have worked with Jackie Banks and William Wesley over the years. I also am a close friend of Billy Whitney, one of Michael Jordan’s close golfing associates.

I appreciate your reply and time.

Peace.

Joel Alpert
joel@alpert.net


From: Tim Grover [mailto:info@attackathletics.com]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:00 AM
To: 'Joel Alpert'
Subject: RE: Attn: Tim Grover

Joel:
I do not have a facility in Vegas. My facility is in Chicago


From: Joel Alpert [mailto:joel@alpert.net]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 2:46 PM
To: 'Tim Grover'
Subject: RE: Attn: Tim Grover

Tim, I understand that your gym is in Chicago. The auction house changed their story to have nothing to do with Las Vegas. I’ll make my question brief:

Did the entire Dream Team have closed practices at your gym in 2007-2008 where they would have worn Dream Team jerseys found in the link in this auction that the auction house claims were worn at your gym during private practices attended by all 12 Dream Team Members: http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo

The auction ended at over $5000.00 for these jerseys but no one can verify that they were worn and the autographs have been questioned.

Did all 12 members of the Dream Team practice in your gym at the same time with Team USA custom practice jersey?

I appreciate your time!

Peace.

Joel Alpert


From: Tim Grover [mailto:info@attackathletics.com]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 6:34 PM
To: 'Joel Alpert'
Subject: RE: Attn: Tim Grover

No we never had the entire USA Men’s basketball team at our gym at one time

[allstarsplus]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Joel - Good work on getting Tim Grover to respond. It will be interesting what Heritage does with this information.

[wjonesIII]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

Below are the four emails between myself and Tim Grover, the man who owns the gym at allegedly the Team USA practiced at where all 12 members of the team wore special USA jerseys during practices. Please note - William Jones III has told us that the jerseys that originally came from a Las Vegas trainer, then came from privative full practices at Tim Grover's gym. If Tim Grover states that the entire USA Men's Basketball Team never was at the gym at one time - What will a letter from a player add to this debate? Nothing, because there is something wrong with these jerseys. I have notified Chris Ivy of my email correspondence found below, but since he has ignored my emails asking if PSA/DNA examined the signatures I figure he will ignore my latest evidence.

The emails:

From: Joel Alpert [mailto:joel@alpert.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 7:59 AM
To: info@attackathletics.com
Subject: Attn: Tim Grover

Mr. Grover, please forgive me for bothering you, but I have had some concerns about some alleged practice worn shoes and jerseys that a gentleman, William Jones III, has clamed were worn by the last USA Olympic Basketball Team at workouts in your gym in 2007. The jerseys can be found in the just completed Heritage Auctions listing found in this link: http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo

Now, after asking questions of Heritage Auctions Galleries and on a well known sports memorabilia forum, Game Used Universe, I have been approached by David Archibald and William Jones III. Mr. Archibald is the consignor and Mr. Jones claims to be the originator. They tell me that these jerseys were worn and autographed at private practices attended by all twelve members of the 2008 USA Olympic Men’s Basketball Team at your gym.

Since there is no media relating to these private practices attended by the whole team, I bring it to your attention to ask to help us verify the authenticity of these alleged practice used, autographed jerseys. If you could confirm that the entire USA Dream Team practiced at your gym and they wore custom made jerseys at these practices, it would really help identity these jerseys as being authentic or not.

The main issue I have is that William Jones III and David Archibald has recently had several items being sold on the marketplace with autographs that do not pass third party authentication and the autographs on these jerseys are being questioned. Your reply will not make you liable for the authenticity, but it may help clear up an issue in the sports memorabilia hobby.

If you need a reference on me, I have worked with Jackie Banks and William Wesley over the years. I also am a close friend of Billy Whitney, one of Michael Jordan’s close golfing associates.

I appreciate your reply and time.

Peace.

Joel Alpert
joel@alpert.net


From: Tim Grover [mailto:info@attackathletics.com]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:00 AM
To: 'Joel Alpert'
Subject: RE: Attn: Tim Grover

Joel:
I do not have a facility in Vegas. My facility is in Chicago


From: Joel Alpert [mailto:joel@alpert.net]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 2:46 PM
To: 'Tim Grover'
Subject: RE: Attn: Tim Grover

Tim, I understand that your gym is in Chicago. The auction house changed their story to have nothing to do with Las Vegas. I’ll make my question brief:

Did the entire Dream Team have closed practices at your gym in 2007-2008 where they would have worn Dream Team jerseys found in the link in this auction that the auction house claims were worn at your gym during private practices attended by all 12 Dream Team Members: http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=710&Lot_No=20034#Photo

The auction ended at over $5000.00 for these jerseys but no one can verify that they were worn and the autographs have been questioned.

Did all 12 members of the Dream Team practice in your gym at the same time with Team USA custom practice jersey?

I appreciate your time!

Peace.

Joel Alpert


From: Tim Grover [mailto:info@attackathletics.com]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 6:34 PM
To: 'Joel Alpert'
Subject: RE: Attn: Tim Grover

No we never had the entire USA Men’s basketball team at our gym at one time

First off, nowhere in this thread does it say that the jerseys came from a Las Vegas trainer. I am not sure where you came you with that. Heritage incorrectly posted that. Heritage was told that a trainer who was at the las Vegas practices got the jerseys, so I would appreciate you refraining from incorrectly accusing me of ever saying that.

I also do not know why you keep saying the jerseys were said to have been from 2007. I don't know when they were ordered, but I was told they were worn when the players came to practice with D-Wade. I don't recall writing that I was told they were all worn "together at one time." I did say that the trainer told us that these jerseys were worn by the players at Tim Grover's gym. Tim Grover doesn't dispute that the jerseys were worn there by the players, he just said they weren't all there at one time. His own trainer is the one who said the players wore and signed these custom jerseys.

To make this matter more confusing, Dwyane Wade signed his jersey on the blue side of the jersey while a photo was taken of him doing so. Additionally, he read and signed a letter with the wording shown.

"Letter of Authenticity
The pictured Nike USA Basketball jerseys were worn and signed by the 12 members of the 2008 United States of America Men’s National Basketball Team. The jerseys were custom ordered for the team to wear while they practiced at Tim Grover’s gym during the summer of 2008 in preparation for the Olympics. The workouts and scrimmage games helped Dwyane Wade determine that his injury was healed, and that he was ready for the Olympics. These autographed, practice worn jerseys were given to his personal trainer before the team left for China.

Dwyane Wade"

This letter was drafted based on what the trainer told us, and as you can see does not state all the players were there at one time. Tim Grover has not disputed the jerseys and Dwyane Wade has personally verified them via his signature on this letter. I have nothing more to offer. I wish Tim Grover would have offered up more information. I have done all I could do and asked the source for every bit of information I could. Dwyane Wade verified he gave these jerseys to his trainer. I am not sure what else to do at this point? I will await your reply Joel.

I am also aware Joel says NBA players have often signed game used on items that were not game used. I have seen very few NBA items ever with a game used inscription. Care to share any details Joel?

[trsent]

Re: Heritage Lot 710 - 2008 USA Olympic Basketball Team Practice Worn Jerseys Lot of 12, Signed

First off, nowhere in this thread does it say that the jerseys came from a Las Vegas trainer. I am not sure where you came you with that. Heritage incorrectly posted that. Heritage was told that a trainer who was at the las Vegas practices got the jerseys, so I would appreciate you refraining from incorrectly accusing me of ever saying that.

I also do not know why you keep saying the jerseys were said to have been from 2007. I don't know when they were ordered, but I was told they were worn when the players came to practice with D-Wade. I don't recall writing that I was told they were all worn "together at one time." I did say that the trainer told us that these jerseys were worn by the players at Tim Grover's gym. Tim Grover doesn't dispute that the jerseys were worn there by the players, he just said they weren't all there at one time. His own trainer is the one who said the players wore and signed these custom jerseys.

To make this matter more confusing, Dwyane Wade signed his jersey on the blue side of the jersey while a photo was taken of him doing so. Additionally, he read and signed a letter with the wording shown.

"Letter of Authenticity
The pictured Nike USA Basketball jerseys were worn and signed by the 12 members of the 2008 United States of America Men’s National Basketball Team. The jerseys were custom ordered for the team to wear while they practiced at Tim Grover’s gym during the summer of 2008 in preparation for the Olympics. The workouts and scrimmage games helped Dwyane Wade determine that his injury was healed, and that he was ready for the Olympics. These autographed, practice worn jerseys were given to his personal trainer before the team left for China.

Dwyane Wade"

This letter was drafted based on what the trainer told us, and as you can see does not state all the players were there at one time. Tim Grover has not disputed the jerseys and Dwyane Wade has personally verified them via his signature on this letter. I have nothing more to offer. I wish Tim Grover would have offered up more information. I have done all I could do and asked the source for every bit of information I could. Dwyane Wade verified he gave these jerseys to his trainer. I am not sure what else to do at this point? I will await your reply Joel.

I am also aware Joel says NBA players have often signed game used on items that were not game used. I have seen very few NBA items ever with a game used inscription. Care to share any details Joel?

Mr. Jones, you have a million excuses for your items and a lot of stories that change every day.

So, now the players didn't all practice at the same time with Dwayne Wade, but they wore jerseys with their numbers on it when they did? Wow - I could have sworn you told us the jerseys were worn at private practices attended by the USA Team members. They came in small groups now?

The original auction description is clearly an error - Where did that error come from? Don't answer - Let Heritage Auctions answer because as Chris Ivy stated - You do not work for Heritage Auction or answer on their behalf.

Next time a questionable item you have is consigned to an auction house I would recommend letting the auction house answering the questions because your answers have led the public to understand that these jerseys are suspect.

I do not have examples of jerseys of NBA players to show you - I just can tell you have I been at autograph sessions and seen players autograph items as "Game Used" or other similar inscriptions that either were not game used or were not even game jerseys. Many players are numb to inscriptions - They sign whatever and don't ask questions because they don't care.

I know you have contact with Dwayne Wade and Derrick Rose, good for you. In the meantime, more evidence points to these USA jerseys not being what they were advertised. Time and time again, your story changes, Heritage Auctions had an error listing the item from a Las Vegas trainer - Oh they just made that up incorrectly and then the story changed when no photos matched that practice? Now Tim Glover emailed me that the whole team didn't practice there at one time so you have a new story that they came in shifts?

I asked if they were there from 2007-2008 - I gave plenty of time. The first email I only mentioned 2007, the second I asked form 2007-2008. What is the issue? We both know what the issue is - Please let Heritage Auctions handle the issue already as they appear not to be concerned with genuine concerns. Go back and read page one of this thread. Look at your posts then and look at them now - You are a great player of games, sir.

Also, attacking me about the Las Vegas trainer is a joke. I don't care if you said such in your posts here or your emails with David Archibald - The fact is clear - It still states such on the Heritage Auctions web site - "A trainer at the Las Vegas practice facilities for the US Olympic basketball team is the source for this incredible collection of worn and autographed shirts from the Team Redeem, which properly reclaimed the Gold Medal for the Americans in Beijing". It is silly that you accuse me of anything here - Your usual method of debate is to attack me over my comments.

If I were you I would stop while you have a chance and let the auction house handle the concerns like you should have from the start. Attacking the questioner - As always - A strong sign of weakness.