American Memorabilia-whoops!!!!

[Eric]

Re: American Memorabilia-whoops!!!!

I think the idea of kick backs seems a bit far fetched. There is nothing to gain for the auction house or the authenticator.

If an authenticator "looked the other way" on a bad item, then his name loses value, and the more bad items an auction house carries, the worse their reputation is.

There are many more auction houses than ever before and so the competition for the consumer's dollar is cutthroat. If an auction house knowingly offered bad items, they risk losing customers to the auction houses who don't have issues.

Think about it, the auction houses known to have questionable items get lower prices.

Without naming names, think of what you consider to be the "lower end" auction house- Now think of why they are the "lower end." Poor customer service? Questionable items? Difficult for a comsumer to get questions answered? A documented shady history? Misleading auction descriptions?

Now think about the "higher end" ones. What makes them different? The ability to get questions answered on products? More thorough analysis of the items offered? Better photos? Catalog descriptions that match the authenticator's findings?

My point here is- there is nothing to gain from this kickback scenario. If an auction house is foolish enough to ask an authenticator to "look the other way" they will find themselves out of the auction game soon enough. The best way to make money as an auction house in this industry is to provide quality items and good customer service.

What I think is a more likely explanation of mistakes made is- because of the higher number of auction houses, there needs to be more and more product out there. It can also mean auction houses want to offer more auctions to keep their name out there. Which means tighter deadlines. Which means authenticators sometimes have only a few days to examine hundreds of items. Mistakes then have to happen. It's not an excuse- it's the realiy of the hobby today.

As a consumer, I would rather have an auction house that does only 2 auctions a year, and takes the time (I know it would cost more more for the auction house to pay the authenticator) to examine the details of each item thoroughly and write a more detailed report- even providing photos of the style of the item being used. I think a house like that would command higher prices per item because of the research that goes into it.

There are my thoughts. Take them for what they're worth.
Eric
moderator

[suave1477]

Re: American Memorabilia-whoops!!!!

Eric before i make my statement i want you to truly know i agree with what your saying BUT!!!! AND THERE IS A BIG BUT!!! with that being said this is america and our country is founded on one companie or another trying to rip off the american public to make a quick buck. Again I am not saying your wrong but i cant believe that an authenticator passing off fake items is where ripping off the puclic draws its line in any form of business where you can make money there will be someone out there trying to make it quicker, in any industry cars, radios, video games, sneakers, jeans, your local retail stores and YES authenticators!!!

I am not saying thats whats happening here but you can never rule it out because authenticating is a business just like any other!!!

[Eric]

Re: American Memorabilia-whoops!!!!

Eric before i make my statement i want you to truly know i agree with what your saying BUT!!!! AND THERE IS A BIG BUT!!! with that being said this is america and our country is founded on one companie or another trying to rip off the american public to make a quick buck. Again I am not saying your wrong but i cant believe that an authenticator passing off fake items is where ripping off the puclic draws its line in any form of business where you can make money there will be someone out there trying to make it quicker, in any industry cars, radios, video games, sneakers, jeans, your local retail stores and YES authenticators!!!

I am not saying thats whats happening here but you can never rule it out because authenticating is a business just like any other!!!

You are completely entitled to that opinion. I just feel that these auction houses would be making a mistake if they think it's about a quick buck. On ebay you make a quick buck- auction houses and authenticators are in it for the long haul, so they have to rely on the reputations they are building.

If I am looking at an auction house, I am going to judge them on how they treat their customers, how they treat their consignors, do they answer questions about items, which authenticators do they use, can they put you in touch with the authenticator, do they offer too many questionable items, how do they respond when an item is shown to be questionable, is there any conflict of interest with their items? It's not about the quick buck, it's about providing a service that works or else they will be working elsewhere.
Eric
moderaotr

[kingjammy24]

Re: American Memorabilia-whoops!!!!

Eric, thanks for your comments.
Given that it's an unproven theory of mine, I don't really think there's too much to discuss on this topic. However, for the sake of discourse, I'll add my 2 bits.

"If an authenticator "looked the other way" on a bad item, then his name loses value, and the more bad items an auction house carries, the worse their reputation is."

There are several flaws with your reasoning here. First, if an authenticator looks the other way, his name loses value only if he's caught and publically exposed. Experience has shown that in most cases, this is not going to happen. That is, in most cases they won't be caught (most collectors aren't savvy experts) and when they are caught, there is no way to immediately inform the mass public. They don't report these things on CNN. This Forum is good but it can in no way inform the millions of collectors across all of North America. The knowledge of any incident pretty much dies quickly with a couple hundred collectors.

Secondly, you assume that an auction house will somehow confess to selling a bad item when the reality is they will issue their standard PR line that we've all heard a million times: "this item was authenticated by BigName Authenticator and we stand by his opinion". End of story. If they're caught outright, then they simply play the blame game. The auction house points the finger at the authenticator and the authenticator comes up with some PR-sounding excuse like "if you'll read the fine print, we never actually said it was game-used". Who's fault was the VA/MEARS Carew glove incident? VA says it's not theirs (and I believe them) and MEARS says its not theirs. Dave Grob put a great spin on it. Looks like the blame goes straight to ol Rod! (Whoever told MEARS to take an athlete at their word, I don't know). Nobody ends up any worse off Eric because nobody ever really accepts the blame. When was the last time you saw Lampson come out and say "Woops, my fault!"? Most collectors are left not really knowing what to think because all the parties are pointing fingers at each other.

Your theory would hold up well if:
a) authenticators were consistently caught
b) either the authenticator or the auction house would actually admit fault
b) these incidents were then broadcast to the mass public
Unfortunately, none of these occur.

"My point here is- there is nothing to gain from this kickback scenario. If an auction house is foolish enough to ask an authenticator to "look the other way" they will find themselves out of the auction game soon enough. The best way to make money as an auction house in this industry is to provide quality items and good customer service."

Eric, I guess we just disagree. Kickbacks have been a part of business around the world since the dawn of time and they wouldn't exist if they didn't benefit the parties involved. Eric it's not quality products that keep a business afloat, it's the appearance of quality products. Johnny Authenticator gets a kickback, says "this item is good!", most collectors don't know better (if they knew better then they wouldn't rely on an authenticator), and so how will the auction house/authenticator rep suffer? Sure, the 2000 people on Game Used Forum won't buy from them but that's a pittance in the sea of the hundreds of thousands of collectors who aren't even aware of this Forum.
It took decades for the American auto industry to start tanking. It took Enron 15 yrs to finally collapse. Both of these received national attention. This is a small, quiet hobby without any real method of mass communication. It takes people a long, long time to catch on.

Rudy.

[suave1477]

Re: American Memorabilia-whoops!!!!

Eric exactly what KingJammy said is what I was talking about. KingJammy was more detailed with what he said and I commend him for that. I would have done the same I just didnt want mine to be too lengthy but KingJammy hit all the points right on the head.

HIS IS ANOTHER GOOD POINT TO ADD TOO KINGJAMMY!!!

Does anyone actually govern the authenticators to make sure they are doing whats right?

Think about it if no one is looking over your shoulder to make sure you doing the right thing whats to stop you from passing off a couple of bad ones.

Steinersports has Deloitte and Touche overlooking what there doing, just to give you an example.

[Eric]

Re: American Memorabilia-whoops!!!!

My point is- you have the freedom to choose the company that you feel has the best safeguards.

If you choose- don't go with the auction houses that don't have people overlooking their work and let that decide who survives in the hobby.

If, as mentioned in your example you feel better about steiner (or mlb.com) products because they use deloitte and touche, then spend your money there, and not with others. If enough people do it, ultimately it could decide the direction of the hobby.

As a sidenote, honestly I'm surprised that MEARS' buyback policy hasn't forced other authenticators to do the same thing.

My two cents.
Eric

[kingjammy24]

Re: American Memorabilia-whoops!!!!

Eric,
I thought your point was that kickbacks are highly unlikely because bad items/authenticators will be caught, reputations will suffer, and as a result such people will be put out of business?
If your point was that people are free to spend their money where they like, then I completely agree. People are indeed free to do so. Personally, I prefer saving my money for actual purchases and coming here for all the free and valuable expertise. There are more niche experts on this board than exist in many "pro" authentication firms. And it's all free!

Regarding your comment on MEARS' buyback policy, before I form an opinion either way about it, I'd like to see the fineprint. How easy is it to get your money back? What do you have to prove exactly and how must it be proven? I'm assuming it's a little more complex than simply saying "I think this jersey is fake" and presto you get a check in the mail. It's one thing to have a policy like that but it's another if it's almost impossible to actually abide by the terms. I don't know the details of it so I can't really comment. Are you aware of the details of exactly how it works? That is, what does one need to do to get their money back? If so, can you please share?

thanks,

Rudy.

[Eric]

Re: American Memorabilia-whoops!!!!

Eric,
I thought your point was that kickbacks are highly unlikely because bad items/authenticators will be caught, reputations will suffer, and as a result such people will be put out of business?
If your point was that people are free to spend their money where they like, then I completely agree. People are indeed free to do so. Personally, I prefer saving my money for actual purchases and coming here for all the free and valuable expertise. There are more niche experts on this board than exist in many "pro" authentication firms. And it's all free!

Regarding your comment on MEARS' buyback policy, before I form an opinion either way about it, I'd like to see the fineprint. How easy is it to get your money back? What do you have to prove exactly and how must it be proven? I'm assuming it's a little more complex than simply saying "I think this jersey is fake" and presto you get a check in the mail. It's one thing to have a policy like that but it's another if it's almost impossible to actually abide by the terms. I don't know the details of it so I can't really comment. Are you aware of the details of exactly how it works? That is, what does one need to do to get their money back? If so, can you please share?

thanks,

Rudy.

My point was that it is highly unlikely that there are kickbacks AND my point is that if you feel that someone is doing shady business then choose to not spend your money with them.

Consumers have a enormous amount of power to decide the direction of the hobby.

Here's how MEARS describes their buyback policy in their FAQ

Q: Is the “buy back” policy just a promotional gimmick? If not how does it work?</SPAN>
A. This policy is as real as the money you paid for the item. If you own an item that we have written a letter on and that item is shown to be other than what we stated, we will arrange for a refund.

[kingjammy24]

Re: American Memorabilia-whoops!!!!

"..item is shown to be other than what we stated"

The beautiful part of that is that MEARS often does not actually state anything subjective beyond an obvious description of the item.

Here's a gem from Bushing himself on the Carew incident in which he attempts to completely absolve MEARS of any responsibility which perfectly illustrates my point:

"MEARS worksheet simply states that the glove is a model A2800 and a correct hand model. We did not date the glove as we have no proof either way and simply refer to the statement by Carew. We offer no opinion on when Carew may have worn this glove as we deal in facts and sans any definite information, we simply give a physical description and list the provanance as is the case in this glove".

Beyond the obvious question of why could Esken roughly date the glove but MEARS couldn't, it illustrates the great unlikelihood of MEARS ever actually being required to buy an item back because all they typically do is describe an item. In order to buy the item back, the item would have to be "other than what they stated". Well what did they state about the Carew glove? Merely that the "MEARS worksheet simply states that the glove is a model A2800 and a correct hand model". Astounding authentication. Now I see why they're the pros. I'm genuinely shocked that they actually charged someone simply for telling them the model number. Literally, anyone over the age of 6 would be able to merely give a description of a glove. If a blind child had felt the glove, he probably would've been able to give a better description.

Eric, one reason why other firms may not offer the "buy back" feature is because other firms tend to render a genuine, subjective opinion as opposed to simply an obvious description. When you're rendering real opinions you take a genuine risk and therefore you might actually be wrong 15% of the time or so. When all you do is describe an item, you're never really going to be wrong so it's impossible for anyone to collect.

Rudy.

[CollectGU]

Re: American Memorabilia-whoops!!!!

I would like to respond to the so called offer. A felloe collector had a bat mistakenly authenticated by MEARS as a rookie bat. They publicly offered the owner the option of taking the bat back and paying him the difference between a rookie bat and a 98' bat. When he asked for option 3- he went and found the price of an Arod rookie bat that had sold at auction at AMI for approx. $4,200 (only one he could find) and found the price of 98' Arod bats that had sold at auction - around $1,500. When asked for the difference between the two as offered, he was told "NO, they wouldn't do that only offer to buy it back as a 98' bat"....So much for your MEARS guarantees:

Here is a copy of their offer on their message board -remeber he chose option 3:

MVP ALEX RODRIGUEZ 93 ROOKIE GAME USED BAT SCD AUTH.

November 15 2005 at 10:45 AM Dave Bushing Dave Bushing (Login DaveBushing1)An SCDA letter was issued for an item currently on Ebay: MVP ALEX RODRIGUEZ 93 ROOKIE GAME USED BAT SCD AUTH., item number 255039

The Ebay item number is: ARODS FIRST LOUISVILLE SLUGGER-A PERFECT MATCH Item number: 8723825728

A MEARS subscriber asked me to review the letter and we found a label period was listed on the letter to be in error.

The actual letter states: 1993 Alex Rodriguez L/S bat A7

In reality, the bat was manufactured during the 1997/98

We have contacted the ebay seller and offered him the following:

1. If you want to keep the bat, please re submit it for a correct letter

2. Please return the bat with proof of purchase and MEARS will purchase the bat back.

3. You may keep the bat and we will pay the difference in value between a 1993 jersey versus a 1997/98

We have double checked A-Rods records and the bat was ordered during the 1997/98 label period.

The corrected information will be updated to the MEARS bat census