NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

[Jake51]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Hi Chris,

My intent was never to point a finger at anyone, just trying to give an answer to the question about why these items showed up in previous auctions and now were all in one place.

Sorry if my comment was misconstrued.

Thanks,

Tom

[ChrisCavalier]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Hi Chris,

My intent was never to point a finger at anyone, just trying to give an answer to the question about why these items showed up in previous auctions and now were all in one place.

Sorry if my comment was misconstrued.

Hello Tom,

Actually I owe you the apology. I guess my post was not clear. My posts contained two parts and the part about the consignor was the only part I intended to reference you (given your previous post).

My reference to mentioning individuals had nothing to do with your post but to posts that were made previous to yours in the thread. I'm sorry for the confusion. I should have made that clearer in my post. In fact, I went back and edited it to try to avoid any further confusion.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

tom: i may be wrong but i think chris was pointing at my post.

re: my post and troy's response

first, i think it's a great thing that MEARS has the character to respond, promptly and in full, to these things. perhaps one day lampson will grow a pair, come out from under his rock and follow their example. so hat's off to troy for not ducking things. to the issues:

"Dave Bushing and I purchased this item at the show at the 2007 National Convention in Cleveland...I authored both the MEARS LOO and the supporting article."

if the actual ownership was joint between troy and bushing then the fact that troy wrote the letter and not dave is irrelevant. if you have ownership in the item, you don't write the letter on it. very simple stuff to grasp, especially for an organization that has long trumpeted the importance of true-third party authentication. if you purchase an item and then you evaluate your own item after you've purchased it, how is that third-party authentication? how is it not a conflict of interest, which MEARS has also long railed against?

"Yes, an A10 grade was given, but the jersey and its merits were carefully chronicled in the detailed MEARS LOO and had nothing to do with Bushings ownership."

the jersey may, or may not, very well merit an A10. that's not the issue in the least. the issue solely centers around the inherit existance of bias in evaluating items you own, regardless of whether the grades are justified.

"What I do feel is that a high majority of active bidders and collectors do not have issues with MEARS members buying and evaluating their own items. This is illustrated by higher prices realized of MEARS evaluated items, even on the items owned and disclosed as being owned by Dave Bushing."

most don't have an issue with it and MEARS items sell for more. all completely irrelevant to the issue. what's right is right regardless of whether people have a problem with it or not. ethical behavior isn't a popularity or profit-making contest.

re: disclosure

i'll say it again: disclosure doesn't eliminate the conflict. it only informs people of the conflict.

"Authenticators John Taube and Lou Lampson are also dealers that have consigned to auction houses in the past. To my knowledge, they have yet to adopt the full disclosure practice mandated by MEARS, yet they never receive criticism."

well this i did not know. i always suspected lampson authenticated and consigned his own items into his buddies' auctions because hey that's just the sort of guy that lou is but with doug allen's dodgy responses and mastro's bizarre refusal to identify their authenticators, i never had any proof. hard to criticize without proof. if taube's consigning and authenticating his own items into auctions, then it's as much a conflict of interest as when bushing does it. taube once told me he didn't authenticate his own items, disclosure or not. i believed him.

"If the current crop of authenticators are still consigning items they own, the collecting public does not know as I know of no formal method of the identification of these items and the disclosure of their owners. Dave received the criticism, as he was the only person disclosing."

ok dave gets kudos for disclosing however holding him up against the current crop of authenticators sets the pretty bar low. who are we talking about here..lampson, coppola, cocchi? i'd name mastro's mystery team but doug keeps them a bigger secret than the colonel's original recipe. MEARS made its name by setting themselves to a higher standard. comparing dave to the current crop of authenticators seems to go against that.

"But, I guess if you do not disclose, how can anybody see the self applied target on your back? Next time you receive an item in auction that was authenticated as real or you get a PSA letter with a high grade, it might have been owned by Taube or Lampson, but you will never really know due to the lack of full disclosure policies for these individuals."

i'd like to see taube address this issue. anyway, troy the inherant problem in what you write above is that, due to various factors, folks have the expectation of the highest ethical standards from MEARS. clearly they don't have that same expectation from lampson. sure, in a way you've done it to yourself but i don't think you'd rather go skulking around the shadows and end up as nothing more than a reviled laughing stock.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

If anyone has a better idea they should share such a concept as maybe MEARS will adopt a new policy based on a different method.

if you own an item, don't grade it. a little complex i know but some may understand it.

the issue is that disclosure doesn't negate the conflict. it's a great start and it's better than what others do but what others do in this industry is so abysmal that it hardly sets the bar. saying you're a good a person because you only stole $5 while everyone else stole $10 isn't much of a case. i agree that disclosure is nice. i agree that MEARS does more than most. neither of these is relevant to the issue.

rudy.

[Danny899]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

As usual, MEARS is upfront and honest about any item they authenticate from their own collection but as usual this is not good enough for some.

I understand, and I believe Troy Kinunen understands, people will always complain or be jealous of their practice and amazing inventory, but the facts are clear. MEARS has set up a policy where all items authenticated by them for items they own will be clearly marked as such on their LOA .

Troy

Joel, your post was accurate and on the money. Especially the two highlighted paragraphs documented above. I also admire your ability not to be lured into a useless debate where you will never get the last word in despite yours and Mears truthfulness. Like anything else in life, no matter what you do or say, someone will have always find a way to complain about it. Good to hear from you again.
Dan

[wjonesIII]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

if you own an item, don't grade it. a little complex i know but some may understand it.

the issue is that disclosure doesn't negate the conflict. it's a great start and it's better than what others do but what others do in this industry is so abysmal that it hardly sets the bar. saying you're a good a person because you only stole $5 while everyone else stole $10 isn't much of a case. i agree that disclosure is nice. i agree that MEARS does more than most. neither of these is relevant to the issue.

rudy.

If I were Lou Lampson, I would submit any item I owned to MEARS before consigning it, because Lou Lampson is not an auction house. he would be allowed to submit the items to MEARS. Then he wouldn't have to ever write a letter on his own jersey again. As far as MEARS goes, who do you want authenticating the items that Troy and Dave consign? Lelands? Mastro? Grey Flannel? The bidder? I am sure the buyer wants a COA. REA did let people know the facts. Do you want REA to write the LOA? Somebody has to write it. Do you just want GUU to authenticate everything. I understand that you don't want the consignor writing the LOA. Many would agree. Again, it was clearly stated by REA though, so what should they have done?

[wjonesIII]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

if you own an item, don't grade it. a little complex i know but some may understand it.


rudy.

Or is the authentication of the Brown jersey by MEARS okay by you, but you feel it should not have received any grade?

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Joel, your post was accurate and on the money. Especially the two highlighted paragraphs documented above. I also admire your ability not to be lured into a useless debate where you will never get the last word in despite yours and Mears truthfulness. Like anything else in life, no matter what you do or say, someone will have always find a way to complain about it. Good to hear from you again.
Dan

danny

good to see you addressing the actual points as usual. i succumb to yours and joel alpert's analysis; it's true that my entire take on this issue is solely because i am "jealous of MEARS practice and amazing inventory".

i also concur that the reason joel's found so much resistance on this forum is because, as he's put it before, people just don't like to hear the truth. much like the reason we've had such a hard time in iraq is because those folks just hate freedom and fun. here's hoping you and joel continue on your truth-espousing mission. maybe one day we'll all see the light.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

If I were Lou Lampson, I would submit any item I owned to MEARS before consigning it, because Lou Lampson is not an auction house. he would be allowed to submit the items to MEARS. Then he wouldn't have to ever write a letter on his own jersey again. As far as MEARS goes, who do you want authenticating the items that Troy and Dave consign? Lelands? Mastro? Grey Flannel? The bidder? I am sure the buyer wants a COA. REA did let people know the facts. Do you want REA to write the LOA? Somebody has to write it. Do you just want GUU to authenticate everything. I understand that you don't want the consignor writing the LOA. Many would agree. Again, it was clearly stated by REA though, so what should they have done?

scintillating to see someone with some genuine comments and questions.
who would authenticate items that belong to troy and/or bushing? perhaps dave grob. really i'm not sure but that's more of a logistical dilemma. i'm simply having an ideological discussion here. if lampson weren't lampson, then the two sides could swap authentications of their personal items back and forth. lou could have his done by MEARS and troy and dave could have theirs done by lou. of course, in reality, that's an abysmal idea solely because lou's "not very good at what he does". troy and dave could submit their items to nick coppola's crew over at GFC or doug allen's mystery band of merrymakers at mastro.

as for what REA should've done, in my opinion, quite simply say they won't run things where the authenticator and consigner are the same person. simple no? if dave bushing loves REA (and let's face it, who doesn't?) and wants to consign all of his items there, then he can simply not grade his items and have another authenticator do it. for his bats, he can get taube or mike specht to do it.

once again, from the bottom of my heart, thanks for actually sticking to the issues.

rudy.

[Danny899]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

danny

good to see you addressing the actual points as usual. i succumb to yours and joel alpert's analysis; it's true that my entire take on this issue is solely because i am "jealous of MEARS practice and amazing inventory".

i also concur that the reason joel's found so much resistance on this forum is because, as he's put it before, people just don't like to hear the truth. much like the reason we've had such a hard time in iraq is because those folks just hate freedom and fun. here's hoping you and joel continue on your truth-espousing mission. maybe one day we'll all see the light.

rudy.

I really don't see how Iraq has anything remotely to do with this topic or this forum for that matter. However maybe if you were less sarcastic and more humble in your writings, some might take you more seriously. Try to realize that members may not always agree with you, and if they don't, there's certainly no reason to become abrasive with them as you have above. It's unfortunate, because I really appreciated your large collection of Rickey Henderson photos in your library. I'm done here.

[David]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I assume that people who are against MEARS issuing an LOA for items they own/consign/market, are also against players or their marketing companies issuing LOAs for the player's game used or autographs. I fail to see much difference between the two.

In the end, what matters is whether or not the item is authentic. If MEARS issues an LOA for an authentic garment, there's little to complain about. If MEARS issues an LOA for a fake garment, then there's something to complain about. If MEARS gives LOAs to a lot of bad stuff, everyone will start dismissing their LOAs-- doesn't matter who owned what. If a collector wants to dismiss altogether the LOAs from MEARS, NFL teams or MLB players because they owned the items and profited directly from their sale, that is their right. However, most collectors will put stock in a Miami Dolphins LOA or Nolan Ryan hologram, even though the entity made significant profit from the sale. If Nolan Ryan starts affixing his hologram to baseballs signed by his neice, then collectors will soon question the legitimacy of his holograms.

[otismalibu]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I assumed KJ24 had an issue with the grading (Mears) of one's own items.

I dunno.

All my collection items have been graded OM10. Just sayin'.

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

A few observations:

Rudy - I do not understand, you want MEARS not to write letters on their own items? Who else can authenticate them? MeiGray, the only other 3rd party authenticator I personally trust, doesn't accept all items and even if they did, why would MEARS pay extra fees to authenticate items that they spent countless hours authenticating themselves?

MEARS has started a policy that is above and beyond what anyone asks for. Do not buy their stuff if you do not like their system. I offered to you a few years ago to start an authentication company with you. We all know you were not interested, as you wish to keep this a hobby for yourself. This is great, but no one else has steeped forward as an authenticator with full disclosure policies in this industry to date.

David Archibald - Nice to see you back in the William Jones III persona. Here is the problem with your concept. If Lou Lampson sent items in to MEARS to have authenticated for the purpose of consigning to any auction house other than Robert Edwards Auctions, MEARS would not be willing to authenticate the item per their Auction House Contract Policy.

Danny - Nice to see your post also. I am glad someone who understands my side of a debate posts it. I find too many people just don't like to get into the debate side of things but love to email, call or when they see me in person tell me how they love my posts and rants.

OM10 - A new grade for you and you only?

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I assume that people who are against MEARS issuing an LOA for items they own/consign/market, are also against players or their marketing companies issuing LOAs for the player's game used or autographs. I fail to see much difference between the two.

the two couldn't be more different. players/marketing companies don't authenticate jerseys. mears does. players/marketing companies are simply saying that "X jersey came from X player/team". mears examines jerseys beyond that point, often without any such provenance. mears is in the business of educated guesswork. when the miami dolphins take a jersey from jason taylor and sell it, they aren't guessing. the pro shop folks aren't even attempting to authenticate. they're just selling what comes off the field. they're not telling people to have faith in their knowledge of game-used items.

In the end, what matters is whether or not the item is authentic. If MEARS issues an LOA for an authentic garment, there's little to complain about.

many things in this hobby matter. conflicts of interest are one of them. however, don't take my word for it. MEARS has spent years railing against conflicts of interest.

david, for the most part, "authenticity" in this hobby requires faith. unless you've personally witnessed an item being used on the field and then put immediately into your own hands without ever taking your eyes off of it, there's a leap of faith required. these leaps are tested or questioned when the person saying it's authentic has an inherant bias in their testimony because they stand to personally profit from it. what is so difficult to understand why conflicts of interest are a bad thing? almost every major commercial endeavor has not only realized this but has formal mechanisms in place to prevent here. meanwhile, we're here in this hobby like a bunch of dinosaurs unable to even comprehend what it all means. i know i've said this a few times but truly i should keep my yap shut about this issue. it seems many have no issue with the consigner and the authenticator being the same person. i suppose i should be thankful these folks don't work in accounting, investment banking, or any other profession that demands a clear understanding of conflicts of interest.

"If MEARS issues an LOA for a fake garment, then there's something to complain about."

i understand what you're saying when you that all that matters is whether the is good or bad but it's substantially more complex and subtle than that. this hobby doesn't operate in such absolute shades. a jersey might be good or might be bad. who's going to tip the scales in favor of good? the person who stands to profit from it and whose opinion people rely on to be objective and unbiased?

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Rudy - I do not understand, you want MEARS not to write letters on their own items? Who else can authenticate them?

grey flannel. john taube. psa/dna. mike specht. GAI. and i'm not suggesting that MEARS, as a whole, not write letters on its items but rather that the specific individuals at MEARS who own a specific item not write letters on that item. if bushing has bought a jersey, he can have grob authenticate it. if grob has purchased a jersey, he can have bushing look at it. would it truly have been such an arduous hassle for dave and troy to have bought the jim brown jersey and given it to dave grob to authenticate? i've been very impressed with much of dave grob's research and i'm sure he could've done a fine job.

why would MEARS pay extra fees to authenticate items that they spent countless hours authenticating themselves?

because it removes the conflict of interest, that's why. does it cost more to be ethical? often yes. joel, when a public company issues its year-end financial statement, there is the requirement that a third-party accounting firm sign off on the results. the company's own in-house accountants can't sign off by themselves. why is that joel? is it because their own in-house accountants have an inherant bias by virtue of being employed by the entity with whom they're supposed to be objective? like i said, the rest of the civilized world has caught up to this issue and this hobby creaks along like it's 1802. someone came up with an auction model 20 yrs ago, inherantly ripe with potential for fraud and exploitation, and we're all still using it and saying "hey, if you don't like it, don't use it".

rudy.