NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I assume that people who are against MEARS issuing an LOA for items they own/consign/market, are also against players or their marketing companies issuing LOAs for the player's game used or autographs. I fail to see much difference between the two.

if dave bushing wants to wear a jersey to play touch football in and then sell that jersey, i have no issue with him attesting to the fact that he personally wore it. dave knows for a fact that he wore it.

if dave wants to purchase a jersey and then authenticate it and determine the degree of authenticity, then i have an issue with it because, unlike his touch football jersey, it's no longer fact, it's simply an opinion. an opinion becomes biased when the person stands to profit from deciding one way or the other.

rudy.

[David]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

As has been said, if a collector wants to dismiss/ignore all MEARS LOAs where they owned and/or consigned the item, that is his right. A collector isn't required to bid on or buy anything.

[David]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I should add that if you feel a company would lie or otherwise materially embellish the authenticity claims because they own the item, that would be a reason not to trust their authenticity opinion about anything.

[wjonesIII]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

scintillating to see someone with some genuine comments and questions.
who would authenticate items that belong to troy and/or bushing? perhaps dave grob. really i'm not sure but that's more of a logistical dilemma. i'm simply having an ideological discussion here. if lampson weren't lampson, then the two sides could swap authentications of their personal items back and forth. lou could have his done by MEARS and troy and dave could have theirs done by lou. of course, in reality, that's an abysmal idea solely because lou's "not very good at what he does". troy and dave could submit their items to nick coppola's crew over at GFC or doug allen's mystery band of merrymakers at mastro.

as for what REA should've done, in my opinion, quite simply say they won't run things where the authenticator and consigner are the same person. simple no? if dave bushing loves REA (and let's face it, who doesn't?) and wants to consign all of his items there, then he can simply not grade his items and have another authenticator do it. for his bats, he can get taube or mike specht to do it.

once again, from the bottom of my heart, thanks for actually sticking to the issues.

rudy.

Grey Flannel my ***. I know for a fact they were sent a Pujols jersey with a GFC letter they wrote, along with a MEARS "unable to authenticate" letter for the same jersey. The Pujols jersey clearly matches the GFC letter and is obviously the same jersey (other than the autograph signed after in GFC's possession). GFC says "it's not the same jersey" and stole the Grey Flannel letter they wrote, calling it their policy to take back such letters. Instead of taking responsibility and explaining why they disagree with MEARS opinion, they stole the letter! That tells me GFC has shady business practices. I would never consign to them, or have them grade any item. Why would Dave Bushing use those people to authenticate his stuff? For the record, it's a bunch of B.S. that GFC stole the letter that they wrote, and charged $ for.

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Rudy, nice theories, but the facts speak for themselves:

If MEARS owns and writes a LOA on an item, they are standing behind it more than anyone else in the industry. Bid with confidence if an issue is found down the road they will still be there to stand behind the item.

You do not have to bid or buy an item with a MEARS LOA that originated from a member of the MEARS staff. That is your choice, but you do not have to go on a debate of how you find it unethical each and every time an item comes up on this forum. We all know you disagree with their policies, but most people find that MEARS has broken new ground for being honest up front so you can be assured their letters for their inventory is fully disclosed.

As similar to what Troy Kinunen stated in his post, how about auction houses that own their own items, authenticate them and sell them? You do not believe this happens with American Memorabilia, Historic Auctions, Grey Flannel and others? Maybe it doesn't, but I believe they all authenticate items in house, and if they own an item, have you ever seen them disclose such information?

MEARS has a policy to give full disclosure of any item they own and authenticate - A positive step in this industry. You do not have to buy anything they have authenticated, but you have to give them credit for honesty and integrity when no one else has stepped forward with such concepts to date.

Ok, don't give them credit, I'll do such for you.

[aeneas01]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

frankly, i don't understand why mears (troy, dave. etc.) would even consider putting themselves in the of position of inviting these sort of debates (which often leave hints of doubt in their wake) simply because they insist on authenticating/grading their own items. nor do i understand why some want to pretend that this sort of practice, autheticating/grading one's own item, is perfectly benign and not frought with potential abuse.

as far as the robert edward "disclaimer" is concerned, imho it falls well short of full disclosure - it assumes that the general public understands the inner workings of mears, how the grading process is determined and who determines the final grade. mears, a sports memorabilia evaluation service and dealer, is the owner and seller of this jersey. they have determined the jersey's authenticity and have awarded it the highest grade available. information regarding mears can be found at mearsonline.com. that's closer to full disclosure imo.

but here's the thing - we're talking about items that fetch tens of thousands of dollars. the fact that mears ponied up to purchase such items alone speaks volumes given their expertise in the field. so why muddy the water? why not seek out a reputable third party authenticator to confirm what mears already knows. call it peer review. now you have a gem offered from the personal colection of one of the most knowledgeable collectors in the world (mears) independently authenticated by xyz. it looks and smells better - and in the long run would be well worth the relatively small layout for the thrid party evaluation imo.

moving on, i was very impressed with troy's detailed and thorough observations regarding the jersey's use. specifically, it strikes me that he's spot on regarding the term "tear away" and its apparent loose definition. i'm with him - i find it hard to beleve that halas, or any owner from that era, would invest in a stockpile of tear away jerseys that would need to be continually replaced throughout a season. further, i doubt the jim brown jersey fabric is consistent with the "true" tear away fabric used in the late 70s, early 80s - a shredded tony dorsett pitt jersey comes to mind.

before i forget, what's up with grading a jim brown gamer an a10? i'm sorry, but that's just laughable. i guess the ark of the covenant would grade out at an a10 as well? as if rare gems can't stand alone on their own painfully obvious merits. here's an idea: confine grading to cards and sigs, to bent corners and smears. but i guess that would mean leaving a few bucks on the table.

as far as the football helmets at mastro are concerned, i would say that at least 75% of them have been sold at auction within the last couple of years. i've only had a chance to take a quick look but i recoginized just about every one i saw, most are in my photo database - i'll post some thoughts as well as what they went for the last time they were auctioned when i get a chance.

to end, here's a shot of a jim brown jersey hanging in canton - there's another photo available that shows the same reinforced elbow stitching.




...

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I should add that if you feel a company would lie or otherwise materially embellish the authenticity claims because they own the item, that would be a reason not to trust their authenticity opinion about anything.

bushing? embellish items he owns? never!

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16205

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16211

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16207

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16206

http://www.network54.com/Forum/427155/message/1208396670/1968+Lew+Krausse+Oakland+A%92s+jersey+%28Lot+%23+1385%29+in+the+current+REA+Auction

anyway, i feel it's unfair to castigate all of mears simply from bushing's actions, especially given that he's already left. i like grob and miedema seems like a good fellow.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

frankly, i don't understand why mears (troy, dave. etc.) would even consider putting themselves in the of position of inviting these sort of debates (which often leave hints of doubt in their wake) simply because they insist on authenticating/grading their own items. nor do i understand why some want to pretend that this sort of practice, autheticating/grading one's own item, is perfectly benign and not frought with potential abuse.

as far as the robert edward "disclaimer" is concerned, imho it falls well short of full disclosure - it assumes that the general public understands the inner workings of mears, how the grading process is determined and who determines the final grade. mears, a sports memorabilia evaluation service and dealer, is the owner and seller of this jersey. they have determined the jersey's authenticity and have awarded it the highest grade available. information regarding mears can be found at mearsonline.com. that's closer to full disclosure imo.

but here's the thing - we're talking about items that fetch tens of thousands of dollars. the fact that mears ponied up to purchase such items alone speaks volumes given their expertise in the field. so why muddy the water? why not seek out a reputable third party authenticator to confirm what mears already knows. call it peer review. now you have a gem offered from the personal colection of one of the most knowledgeable collectors in the world (mears) independently authenticated by xyz. it looks and smells better - and in the long run would be well worth the relatively small layout for the thrid party evaluation imo....

robert, what you say makes such clear, perfect sense that i'm positive you're going to encounter some violent opposition. for convenience and brevity, let me save some their wildly non-sequitur responses to robert's fantastic post:

- "if you don't like the system, don't use it" (my favorite. helps ensure the status quo. castro probably had it tattooed on himself).

- "mears makes lots of money" (if something's profitable then it can't possibly be unethical!).

- "mears is better than everyone else" (and therefore is perfect and can't possibly be improved so stop trying).

- "everyone else consigns and grades their own items". (if a lot of people are doing something they shouldn't then it's ok. not sure why that logic didn't fly at the nuremberg trials).

- "conflict of what? all they're doing is personally purchasing items, using their position as unbiased, objective authenticators to assign grades to their own items and then reselling these items for their own personal profit, which in turn is determined by the grade they've assigned to their items. where's the conflict in any of that? you're crazy".

rudy.

[Moustache Gang]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

The 5th example Rudy provided in the previous post may just be the tip of the iceberg or it could be one of a few incidents that has surrounded Bushing. I am referring to the 1968 Lew Krausse A's jersey that was owned by Bushing and auctioned off in the 2008 REA auction.

Most of us agree that MEARS is the best authentication firm around or would at least agree that the MEARS evaluation process is more comprehensive than most others especially the very subjective Lampson grading scale and evaluation process.

If MEARS takes hours to review a game used jersey and put it through a rigorous audit to come up with a final score based on 30+ identifiers, matching color plates, alterations, etc how then can Bushing miss a stain on the front of 1968 gold flannel jersey that is larger than the size of a quarter and can clearly be seen by a guy with 20/600 vision?

One answer is that in most cases a grade of an A-10 will bring in more money than an A-9 or A-8.

By the way after much consternation and impirical evidence showing it was indeed a stain the jersey was re-evaluated and given a score of an A-10.


Mark

[Moustache Gang]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Forum members...

I apologize for my last email...after much consternation and empirical evidence the Krausse jersey was re-evaluated and given a final score of an A-9 One point was subtracted for the stain.

Mark

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Based on Dave Bushings four posts today on the MEARS forum, I guess it is safe to say people have really gotten under his skin.

It is too bad, Dave Bushing appears to try hard and works with MEARS and their policies and then people always bring up issues that MEARS has fully addressed each and every time.

I guess no one will ever be happy, but MEARS appears to me to be working in a positive direction, just as the GUU Auction House, to work with the public in case there is any reason for discussion.

[wjonesIII]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

why not seek out a reputable third party authenticator to confirm what mears already knows. call it peer review. now you have a gem offered from the personal colection of one of the most knowledgeable collectors in the world (mears) independently authenticated by xyz. it looks and smells better - and in the long run would be well worth the relatively small layout for the thrid party evaluation imo.

Who is that authenticator then? I know Taube and Specht were mentioned for bats, but who will authenticate their jerseys? GFC, Mastro, etc, AMI, and even the GUU auction all have had "suspect/questionable" items in their auctions that their authenticators passed prior to the auction opening for bidding, but then were later proven to have issues. Do you think MEARS wants those auction houses with a history of mistakes to authenticate the MEARS owned items?

Troy has clearly stated that he wants you to show him who else has the MEARS resources, experience, rules, etc? There have been names mentioned for bats that are acceptable, but name one jersey expert or authentication company who hasn't made some high profile mistakes discussed on this board?

[lund6771]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Who is that authenticator then? I know Taube and Specht were mentioned for bats, but who will authenticate their jerseys? GFC, Mastro, etc, AMI, and even the GUU auction all have had "suspect/questionable" items in their auctions that their authenticators passed prior to the auction opening for bidding, but then were later proven to have issues. Do you think MEARS wants those auction houses with a history of mistakes to authenticate the MEARS owned items?

Troy has clearly stated that he wants you to show him who else has the MEARS resources, experience, rules, etc? There have been names mentioned for bats that are acceptable, but name one jersey expert or authentication company who hasn't made some high profile mistakes discussed on this board?

I agree with Rudy....

this is not a small time hobby anymore!...it has gone from local flea markets and card shows to a multi-million dollar industry...Multi-million dollar industries need some sort of regulation....unfortunately, it hasn't caught up yet....So who's going to decide what prcatices are ethical and legal?...the guys behind the tables who originated from these flea markets?

if Bushing wants to authenticate his own items, I don't have a problem with it, but it should not be the ONLY authentication...and it doesn't matter what is disclosed

I agree WJones that the places listed above are not the best authenticators, but there should be at LEAST ONE third party looking at this!....it would help diminsh the "conflict of interest" level

someone still needs to explain to me how this Jim Brown jersey, that is as durable as the t-shirt I'm wearing, would not be destroyed from even a few games....wasn't that the intent of the tear away, so that it would TEAR AWAY!!!!!...maybe the jersey is real, but game worn?...
we're talking common sense, not how many OTHER tear aways I have seen that don't show any wear

this would be an ideal situation for third party discussion or authentication...ecspecially when we are talking about a piece that is worth $50,000

[Nathan]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Thanks to Troy for a fairly detailed response.

That said, the issue is exactly what Rudy and Robert are saying it is. Someone authenticating their own acquisitions and consigning them to an auction house, in spite of how transparent or opaque the various policies may be, creates the appearance of a conflict of interest and of impropriety.

Let's say this wasn't MEARS involved; let's say it was Lampson. Lampson buys a jersey from sources unknown, writes a letter authenticating it, and then consigns it to an auction house. Regardless of how good or bad the item may be (and we'll certainly discuss it here), it creates the impression that he's hacking it for an added buck. I mean, the guy told me to my face that the he had never seen anything that would indicate that the Orioles ever wore green jerseys when I asked him about the green Ripken jersey; really, that's not the point either.

The point is, in spite of any acts of full disclosure and transparency, bidders are supposed to be fine with the fact that a jersey was purchased by someone who then authenticated it and is currently consigning it.

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

So, what does everyone want?

Dave Bushing has sold his shares of MEARS, and he will not be working for them anymore. The MEARS For Sale site is not going away. Troy Kinunen has made it clear that he is going to continue to write LOAs for his own memorabilia and he will fully disclose any item being sold with a MEARS LOA that originated from his collection as being his item with his personal LOA.

If you don't like it, buy elsewhere, but putting MEARS down for offering 100% full disclosure is just sour grapes now.

They are not going to use other authenticators, as for some items they do not feel there is anyone more qualified. They are doing what they feel they have to do to run a business, and I am pretty sure they are doing their best to show their efforts this way.

If you do not like it, do not buy it. If you are like Rudy, genuinely concerned about people buying items that they do not understand the concept, I do not know what to tell you.

There is a gas station around the corner from me that today gas is priced at $2.79 a gallon. Across the street there is gas priced at $2.08 a gallon. I cannot stand there all day and let everyone who is paying .71-cents more a gallon know that they are paying too much. I have to worry about more important things.

I'm sure people will complain about my comparison, but it is the same sour grapes. People want to tell others how to spend their money and run their private businesses.

Now a business has broken ground with full disclosure, and it is still not good enough. Other businesses are buying, selling and authenticating their own items (or having suspect 3rd party authenticators authenticate it) and no one is complaining - Because they do not know it is happening.

Now an industry player has offered 100% full disclosure, and it just isn't good enough.

Sorry, Charlies, they have made a great effort and as usual, the complainers are just SOUR GRAPES as if these complainers would look at similar situations and see 0% ownership disclosure - 0% authentication disclosure they would have something more mature to debate.