NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

[lund6771]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Joel...

I don't think that anyone would disagree with you that Mears is putting everything all out there....by far more than anyone else

But I think the point is not in comparing Mears to other auction house's practices....it's just a simple and basic point that people should not be the ONLY authenticators of their own items...

I have a hard time believeing that Mears feels that they are more knowledgable than EVERYONE else on EVERY item....my point being, I don't think that people are seeking 3rd party authentications from people like 100% Authentic and Lampson...I'm referring to people who specilaize in niches....

like Aeneous on helmets...they should have spcialized collectors look at these items...

Aeneous, I'm not trying to blow up your ego here...but I would consider someone like yourself, an expert in your field of collecting....your opinion ,with any Mears letter, should be more than an acceptable as third party authentication

you can't tell me that Aeneous is the only expert in any niche out there...I'm sure that the guys from Mears have spoken to many known collectors through out the years who specailize in many niches...

why not show these big ticket items to some of these experts?....obviously I think that it would be difficult to get EVERY piece of memorabilia looked at....but if they are going to be selling items for $50,000 +, don't you think it would be ethical to have someone take a 2nd look?

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

my apologies to the original poster of this thread for the way i've caused it to veer off course. i didn't intend to go down this path at all. i simply thought i'd slip in a little quip about being surprised that a $70k jersey owned by troy and dave managed to get an A10 from troy and dave. in the past i swore i'd never bring up conflicts of interest because this discussion always goes down the same predictable path; a scant few get it, most don't and never will, and dave whips himself into a foamy-mouthed frenzy on the mears forum where he comes as close as a human being can come to combusting. that said, it was nice to see a few folks like robert, nathan, and lund really grasp the core issues so it gives me a little hope. i also thought dave grob's response was articulate, logical, and clear. truth is, i agree with almost all of what he says. it's nice to see that grob sees the value in intellectual discourse and can constructively debate things without turning into a petulant child who throws his arms in the air and screams he's quitting, selling all of his shares, and noone can play with his ball again. dave b: i understand you feel forced to reply to these things to defend yourself to your customers but truly, your responses do you far more damage than anything i could possibly write. despite all of that that, i think i'll hook myself up to an electrical device that'll be programmed to shock me when i start to type the words "conflict of..".

wjonesIII: you're talking about the actual feasibility and logistics of all of this. i simply was discussing the theoretical nature of it. if the hobby, as a whole, could see and agree that the consigner and the authenticator being the same person isn't in the best interest of buyers, that would be a massive step. i can't even get people to understand why it's a problem, much less discuss how to handle it. regardless, let me address your question of who could possibly authenticate jerseys for mears employees. the greatest collective knowledge in the hobby is not in the auction houses or "professional authenticators" but amongst hobbyists/niche experts that know more about their niche than any of the "big names". is there anyone who wouldn't gladly accept a letter from aeneas about helmets or howard wolf on vintage phillies jerseys or patrick scoggin on broncos jerseys? patrick has probably forgotten more about broncos shirts than bushing will ever know. furthermore, it's hard to imagine that anyone in the hobby has a bigger rolodex than dave bushing. the man must know how to contact every single dealer, authenticator, and niche expert around. to answer your question, all dave would have to do is find the "aeneas" of vintage browns jerseys. somewhere out there is an individual who's spent his entire collecting tenure doing nothing but studying vintage browns jerseys and, like the niche experts mentioned above, his word would gladly be accepted amongst collectors of that niche. of course, all of this depends on whether you want the letter in order to genuinely suss out an item or if you simply want it to boost the value of an item. no doubt a mears letter adds a financial premium. people love seeing a name that's been heavily marketed as "the foremost expert" even if the reality is that foremost expert (on everything from gloves to football jerseys to baseball bats) doesn't actually know more about a given niche than a niche expert.

nathan & lund: exactly

joel: "putting MEARS down for offering 100% full disclosure is just sour grapes". yes that's exactly what this is all about. we're all pissed that mears offers 100% disclosure. anyway, as for yours and danny's comments about folks never being satisfied and things not being good enough, well i suppose there are some who are perfectly content with the status quo and never improving and others who constantly seek to help things become better. until reading your posts i never realized that striving for constant improvement was a bad thing. thanks for the enlightenment.

rudy.

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

joel: "putting MEARS down for offering 100% full disclosure is just sour grapes". yes that's exactly what this is all about. we're all pissed that mears offers 100% disclosure. anyway, as for yours and danny's comments about folks never being satisfied and things not being good enough, well i suppose there are some who are perfectly content with the status quo and never improving and others who constantly seek to help things become better. until reading your posts i never realized that striving for constant improvement was a bad thing. thanks for the enlightenment.

rudy.

Rudy, as usual, you have to take rebuttals personally and that is not fair. I give my views on the debate, and you have to thank me for the enlightenment.

I believe the MEARS staff actually has 3rd party people they work with who are experts in certain areas and they contact them when they wish to check their work. The speculation sounds as if MEARS doesn't ever go to their friends and associates in the industry who can verify such information when they wish to check/balance or just plain need help identifying an item. I know for a fact they do contact associates for check/balances and when they are stumped.

You got your shots in against Dave Bushing - You can sleep better knowing that your posts had something to do with Dave Bushing selling off his shares of MEARS.

Maybe you should stop speculating what MEARS does or doesn't do in their process of authenticating an item because you are not there and they are not going to use another authenticator for an item they are confident in and will stand behind with full disclosure of ownership.

Yes, SOUR GRAPES.

Rudy, you don't address my concerns, which are why not attack the auction houses that are buying items, in house authenticating these items (or using a suspect 3rd party authenticator), and then selling the items at their own auction house without disclosing that they own the item?

You rather pick on Dave Bushing (and brown nose Dave Grob) for together having a company that fully discloses any item them own and authenticate. This is just too easy for you.

At least when MEARS looks to sell an item that they have fully disclosed ownership of along with authentication - We know you will find their practice wrong, and you have that right - You will have a right to check/balance their work and if you find issues they will address your concerns as few others in the industry will.

In the meantime, did you want the addresses of those gas stations? You could help a lot of innocent people save a lot of money.

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Joel...

I don't think that anyone would disagree with you that Mears is putting everything all out there....by far more than anyone else

But I think the point is not in comparing Mears to other auction house's practices....it's just a simple and basic point that people should not be the ONLY authenticators of their own items...

I have a hard time believeing that Mears feels that they are more knowledgable than EVERYONE else on EVERY item....my point being, I don't think that people are seeking 3rd party authentications from people like 100% Authentic and Lampson...I'm referring to people who specilaize in niches....

like Aeneous on helmets...they should have spcialized collectors look at these items...

Aeneous, I'm not trying to blow up your ego here...but I would consider someone like yourself, an expert in your field of collecting....your opinion ,with any Mears letter, should be more than an acceptable as third party authentication

you can't tell me that Aeneous is the only expert in any niche out there...I'm sure that the guys from Mears have spoken to many known collectors through out the years who specailize in many niches...

why not show these big ticket items to some of these experts?....obviously I think that it would be difficult to get EVERY piece of memorabilia looked at....but if they are going to be selling items for $50,000 +, don't you think it would be ethical to have someone take a 2nd look?

I believe the 2nd look is coming from the collecting community. How many suspect items get brought up on this forum? There is a lot of behind the scenes homework being done.

If you expect MEARS to come to this forum and ask for help, that is not going to happen. Too many people have attacked them when they have really had an open door policy to listening and addressing concerns since I have been involved with MEARS.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

some excellent points from mears' dave grob on all of this:

"I think it is counter productive to address this, at times emotionally charged issue, through the rationale of "look what everyone else is either doing or not doing".

couldn't agree more. reminds me of those folks who get a speeding ticket and spend their entire time pointing out to the cop all of the other folks were speeding too as if it has any relevancy whatsoever.

"MEARS should rightly expect to be the object of scrutiny and attention for any number of reasons. Much of what we have done in terms of process and procedures has been the result of either solicited or unsolicited collector feedback... We are comfortable with who we are as individuals and as an organization. This is not the same thing as being complacent. I would like to think we are always looking for ways to improve what we do and how we do it."

"The other thing is that we (MEARS) can not be afraid to have these issues come to public light and debate. I have always felt that fear of embarrassment and the cost to ones reputation, both personally and professionally, should act as primal motivator to do the best job you can every day and every time."

well you can either have it motivate you to do your best or you can quit, go home, and lament that everyone has it out for you and it's all personal.
i guess it all depends on your mettle.

entire post here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/426247/message/1227150709/Dueling+Message+Boards

rudy.

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

well you can either have it motivate you to do your best or you can quit, go home, and lament that everyone has it out for you and it's all personal.
i guess it all depends on your mettle.

rudy.

Rudy, point blank question:

Do you have issues with Dave Bushing as a collector, dealer and authenticator?

I am not asking if you have issues with his position in the industry, do you have a vendetta against him personally because that is what your attacks, time and time again, begin to look like.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I believe the MEARS staff actually has 3rd party people they work with who are experts in certain areas and they contact them when they wish to check their work. The speculation sounds as if MEARS doesn't ever go to their friends and associates in the industry who can verify such information when they wish to check/balance or just plain need help identifying an item. I know for a fact they do contact associates for check/balances and when they are stumped.

i'm well aware that MEARS has niche experts help them out with nuggets of advice. this is very different than who ends up writing the final LOA and determining the final grade on the item. it's the grade that affects the sales value.

You got your shots in against Dave Bushing - You can sleep better knowing that your posts had something to do with Dave Bushing selling off his shares of MEARS.

it's going to take a lot more than witnessing another one of dave's awkward outbursts to make me sleep well at night.

Rudy, you don't address my concerns, which are why not attack the auction houses that are buying items, in house authenticating these items (or using a suspect 3rd party authenticator), and then selling the items at their own auction house without disclosing that they own the item?

because i had actual proof with the jim brown jersey. show me which other auction houses and authenticators are doing it and i'll be more than happy to discuss them as well. truthfully joel, i mean that. show me and i'll engage them. i need some actual proof though not just a private email saying "i hear so-and-so might possibly have some ownership interest in this item they graded..but i'm not sure so don't quote me".

when doug allen was found to have consigned a kellen winslow helmet that he had a financial interest into his auction without so much as any disclosure, i think i squeezed that one for at least 6 or 7 posts. i publically questioned how it was possible for the head of an auction house to fail to adhere to his own policies and standards. as well, i've constantly wondered aloud on this forum how GFC can be a dealer/
authenticator/auction house without smashing every conflict of interest to the ground. if you and bushing think i haven't discussed the folks at mastro, GFC, AMI and lampson at length then you must've missed the first 1500 of my posts. for some bizarre reason you and bushing think i have something personal against him. i've never even met or spoken to the man so how could it be personal? truth is i rather like his shiny noggin and loud shirts. bushing gets discussed a lot because he's a very big fish who once worked for a firm that touted itself as the new standard of ethical conduct. that's fine to say but it also sets a pretty big expectation. i don't think they'd rather have it any other way though. dave's only other serious competitor is lampson and honestly, i think lampson's been discussed here once or even twice.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

I believe the 2nd look is coming from the collecting community. How many suspect items get brought up on this forum? There is a lot of behind the scenes homework being done.

If you expect MEARS to come to this forum and ask for help, that is not going to happen. Too many people have attacked them when they have really had an open door policy to listening and addressing concerns since I have been involved with MEARS.

it's not about private consultations. it's about who writes the final letter and issues the final grade. that is, it's about who specifically influences the sales price via the authentication.

rudy.

[Nathan]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Rudy, as usual, you have to take rebuttals personally and that is not fair. I give my views on the debate, and you have to thank me for the enlightenment.

I believe the MEARS staff actually has 3rd party people they work with who are experts in certain areas and they contact them when they wish to check their work. The speculation sounds as if MEARS doesn't ever go to their friends and associates in the industry who can verify such information when they wish to check/balance or just plain need help identifying an item. I know for a fact they do contact associates for check/balances and when they are stumped.

Joel,

Maybe it's just me, but if MEARS sent me a bagful of recent Tennessee Vols football jerseys and asked me to look at them, I'd want my name out there. And if it came down to being sent a bagful to look at that was owned by one of the higher-ups, common sense (to me anyway) would dictate that the split between the owner and the authenticator be made absolutely clear. In the interest of full disclosure, this would make sense. I believe it is beyond dispute that Dave purchased a Jim Brown jersey, his company authenticated it, and it is now consigned at auction. I also believe it is beyond dispute that this creates, at best, an enormous perception of impropriety.

Let's consider this. Say someone walks in off the street and offers me a UT Peyton Manning jersey (the ultimate grail) with no documentation. I purchase it with the intention of flipping it for a huge profit; all that I need is the authentication. I'm confident that I would be able to do it, but I would have one of the following two things happen:
1) Have someone else of similar knowledge authenticate it without me being involved, or
2) Have someone closely involved or of similar knowledge authenticate it as a supplement to my own authentication.

Since I don't like being a target for much of anything, I believe that I would go out of my way to emphasize the fact that someone "in the know" who is otherwise uninvolved also believes it to be good, and I certainly wouldn't be drawing up my own authentication letter using my own company. My goal, besides a tidy profit, would be to avoid the slightest appearance of a conflict of interest. If that means tracking down the equipment managers from that time frame and having them look at it and finding Peyton Manning and finding it as well as scouring for a photomatch, that's what it would take.

Joel, this isn't about who else is doing what or what advances MEARS has or hasn't made compared to the largely shady world of authenticating. This is about whether, in this case here, there is a conflict of interest. This is about whether, in this case here, there is the possibility for fraud to have been committed. This is about whether, in this case here, a neutral observer would question the manner in which this is being done.

I commend MEARS for going further than the others are going and certainly for striving toward full disclosure. I don't believe this case helps that cause at all.

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Nathan and Rudy, fine. You don't like the way they run their business but they are not going to change it.

They have revolutionized the industry with full disclosure and if you do not like it, please continue to complain about it but at the end of the day they are doing what they find best for their business and their integrity.

No one has to buy their items, but they have set a standard that others ignore because they wish to play by rules that we wouldn't approve but since we don't know the inside facts and MEARS gladly discloses such facts for public record they get people to insult their full disclosure policy.

[beantown]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

How about if MEARS has an item of their own they authenticate, its fully disclosed and examined/authenticated by an independent 3rd party...

[Nathan]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Nathan and Rudy, fine. You don't like the way they run their business but they are not going to change it.

They have revolutionized the industry with full disclosure and if you do not like it, please continue to complain about it but at the end of the day they are doing what they find best for their business and their integrity.

No one has to buy their items, but they have set a standard that others ignore because they wish to play by rules that we wouldn't approve but since we don't know the inside facts and MEARS gladly discloses such facts for public record they get people to insult their full disclosure policy.

Joel,

You again totally miss the point. I'm not saying that a phony item is being passed off as authentic by someone looking to turn a quick buck on the back of an unsuspecting collector. I'm saying that, to neutral observers or interested uninvolved observers, it would appear that there is either a conflict of interest or impropriety. Were I in the position of someone who is looking to flip a jersey or other item, I would go out of my way to whatever extent possible to ensure that there is ZERO appearance of a conflict of interest or a possible conflict of interest.

I appreciate MEARS; I have yet to use their services, but I believe they've set a standard that no one else seems to have any interest in touching. But a situation like this doesn't help their perception. If this were Lampson who acquired a jersey, then consigned it after a letter from "100% Authentic" were drawn up for it, wouldn't we be all over that and justifiably so? The various MEARS policies are terrific, but this particular situation doesn't look like something to herald.

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Joel,

You again totally miss the point. I'm not saying that a phony item is being passed off as authentic by someone looking to turn a quick buck on the back of an unsuspecting collector. I'm saying that, to neutral observers or interested uninvolved observers, it would appear that there is either a conflict of interest or impropriety. Were I in the position of someone who is looking to flip a jersey or other item, I would go out of my way to whatever extent possible to ensure that there is ZERO appearance of a conflict of interest or a possible conflict of interest.

I appreciate MEARS; I have yet to use their services, but I believe they've set a standard that no one else seems to have any interest in touching. But a situation like this doesn't help their perception. If this were Lampson who acquired a jersey, then consigned it after a letter from "100% Authentic" were drawn up for it, wouldn't we be all over that and justifiably so? The various MEARS policies are terrific, but this particular situation doesn't look like something to herald.

Ok, MEARS fully discloses their items, and that is all there is to it. Rudy can continue to complain about it, but the facts are clear and Troy Kinunen and Dave Grob have made every effort to publicly disclose this information and if people don't like this policy THEY DO NOT HAVE TO BUY IT.

Comparing this to if Lou Lampson consigns an item to AMI and it is authenticated by 100% Authentic, which is his signature, but AMI and Lou Lampson fully discloses they have authenticated the item: WHO CARES?

It is the same concept, and they are telling any potential buyers they owned and authenticated the item.

Then again, you could just deal with Mastro Auctions, who has a panel of secret authenticators who authenticate items and no one knows who owns the items or who authenticates them.

Again - If you do not like this policy, do not buy MEARS For Sale Items.

This debate is getting old. Having Rudy say that he never met Dave Bushing so he is not out to get him, but then he picks on Dave Bushing's taking his attacks personally time and time again shows a pattern.

I will defend any authenticator (and there are not many) who write letters for their own memorabilia and sell it retail or auction.

Oh wait - I just figured it out - Grey Flannel has been doing this since day one and no one whined about it because they do not mention that they own all the items for sale on their web site.

Guys, find better rationale or just do what an educated consumer would do - Buy elsewhere.

MEARS has done what no one else has the guts to do because they want to be honest and show an effort but all they get is people who scream "Conflict of Interest" and you know what it is a conflict of interest that they fully disclose which no one else in the industry has ever done.

Finally, as for "Missing the point" I guess you just want to join the bandwagon that this debate is over a conflict of interest - Which it is and MEARS know this, so they fully disclose such so there is no one who can complain but...

Oh wait, the usual complainers come here.

I already received an email today from a forum reader who says he is tired of the debaters always making it personal and he will no longer post on the forum, and he was a semi-regular contributor.

As usual, the masses think they are going to change the world when the changes for the good are positive and their solutions are not even reasonable.

Like MEARS is going to send their game used items to Lou Lampson for authentication. I hope others are laughing at this also. The solution is simple, MEARS writes LOAs for their own items and the FULLY DISCLOSE THIS CONFLICT OF INTEREST so anal buyers like Rudy do not buy such items since they are losing sleep over such a practice.

[trsent]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Let me make the point totally clear so there is no confusion:

MEARS KNOWS THE CONCEPT IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST SO THEY FULLY DISCLOSE SUCH IN ADVANCE SO ANYONE WHO IS LOOKING AT AN ITEM MEARS OWNS AND AUTHENTICATED IS TOLD SUCH IN ADVANCE SO THEY CAN MAKE THEIR OWN DETERMINATION.

MEARS KNOWS THIS IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST - NO GAMES - THEY DISCLOSE SUCH.

[helmets]

Re: NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction

Wow, I'm not much of an NFL collector, would like to add more to the few I have, but have everyone seen the lots in the next Mastro auction? Has to be the largest offering of old NFL jerseys I have seen. I hate auctions, but if you like looking at football jerseys you have to check this stuff out:


http://live.mastroauctions.com/index...0Search%20List

I bet ol' Number9 had no idea this thread was going to turn into this...

I sure wish I would have been allowed to grade all of my own papers and tests in college. I'd be making a lot more money...