Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Everyone,

I saw a recent interaction of the forum regarding whether or not team LOAs are important when buying modern game used items. While I am certainly not going to make a blanket statement for all current game used items, I would like to address whether or not it is important for a game used item to have team paperwork when it comes from a professional sports football team that has a deal with a memorabilia company.

Although we have yet to formally announced it, Game Used Universe recently completed a team deal with the Oakland Raiders and J.O. Sports, Inc. For those not familiar with J.O. Sports, Inc., they also have team deals with the Minnesota Vikings, Chicago Bears and Washington Redskins. Among other things, the deal will give GUU and J.O. Sports, Inc. exclusive rights to market Raider game used items for the next three years.

While we were in discussions with the Raiders, I was speaking with someone who was interested in acquiring a game used JaMarcus Russell jersey. Prior to the GUU/JO/Raider deal, those knowledgeable in the industry were well aware that the Raiders really haven’t put many modern gamers out on the secondary market. Knowing it was nearly impossible to find legitimate current Raider game used items, I told this person I had some contacts with the Raiders and would let them know if I would be able to get them the jersey they wanted. In talking with the Raiders, I was able to find out that there had only been one legitimate JaMarcus Russell game used jersey previously ever offered to the secondary market and that jersey had been sold in a Raider auction through Ticketmaster. As things progressed with the Raiders and we knew that the deal would likely happen, I thought I would be able to impress our customer with our ability to provide him with this hard-to-find item.

As we completed the deal with the Raiders I went back to the customer only to find out they had already acquired what they were told was a JaMarcus Russell “gamer” from a dealer in the hobby. When I heard this I thought to myself, how could this dealer get a JaMarcus Russell gamer? The one sold through Ticketmaster almost surely went to a collector. What are the odds of the dealer actually having a legitimate JaMarcus Russell gamer, especially one without team paperwork? Quite frankly, I’d say the odds were almost zero.

As I thought about this I also thought about all the other supposed football “gamers” without team paperwork I have seen offered through various venues in the secondary market when I know marketing companies have rights to those items. While certainly there may be some instances where players may want to keep their jerseys or something along those lines, how many jerseys can there really be outside the ones going through the marketing companies when the marketing company has a deal with the team? I know the deal we have with the Raiders is exclusive and, although the Raiders do have the right to offer a few on their own in various Raider events, every Raider gamer will come with documentation from the team. How could it be then that our customer was able to get a JaMarcus Russell “gamer” from a dealer in the hobby without Raider paperwork?

I also know about the J.O. Sports deal with the Vikings. Although J.O. Sports doesn’t get every Adrian Peterson game used jersey, they get most of them and know where the ones they don’t get end up. How is it then that there are so many Adrian Peterson “gamers” being offered in the market, especially without team paperwork? And again, everyone who knows the hobby intimately knows it is just about impossible to get New England Patriots game used jerseys, let alone a legitimate Tom Brady game used jersey. Yet, I don’t know how many Tom Brady “game used” jerseys I have seen on the market in the last six months alone, a number of them with third-party authentication.

For those of you thinking these items are “getting out the back door” let me tell you that I have personally met with both the marketing and operations people from the Raiders. I will tell you that they are all knowledgeable, intelligent and highly ethical. In fact, I personally go to the Raiders facility to pick up the jerseys directly from them. To be honest, the idea that these jerseys are/will be “getting out the back door” is just not true. While I don’t want to take the liberty of speaking for others, I can tell you the same is also likely true for the Cowboys, Bears, Vikings and Redskins.

To go one step further, it is my understanding that the FBI is looking into where some of these supposed “game used” jerseys are coming from and I hope something is done about it. I also hope the entities selling these types of jerseys for consignors will begin to take more responsibility in what they are selling. Instead of putting money first and writing it of as it just being a “matter or opinion”, those accepting consignments should be aware of the deals these teams have with marketing companies and take responsibility when consignors try to sell these supposed “gamers” through their venues.

Lastly, collectors need to take the time to educate themselves as well. On items where they know team deals exist, they should DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK. In my opinion, there will come a time when the general collecting community will become more aware of team deals and collectors will know there is just no way so many of these supposed “gamers” without team paperwork can really exist. I hope at that point those creating these items will be held accountable for what they have done. To me, it is no different than a counterfeiter only one uses paper as their medium and the other a garment. Whether or not that happens remains to be seen. However, what I do believe is the ones who are really going to lose out are the ones buying these items believing they are getting “deals”. They will be the ones in the end who will be holding these suspect items when the general collecting community becomes more aware of the situation. As a collector, when you know a professional team has a deal with a marketing company for their game used items it is up to you to DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK. Otherwise, you may end up being the one left holding the bag.

[TFig27]

Team paperwork is good to a point. I believe there should be some consistency between the teams on how the COAs are written. Are there pictures of the item? Is there some numbered database to look up a COA? There needs to be some way to directly connect the paperwork to the item.
I collect mostly baseball and am not sure what your team paperwork looks like. But, I purchased a Derek Jeter game used bat direct from Steiner this year and received a paper COA signed by Derek. But, there's no way to tie this bat to the letter. This has to be one of the most ridiculous ways to have a COA for an item. Now, I plan on keeping the bat, so it really doesn't not affect me. But, if someone wanted to sell their bat they have no way of proving "this letter" goes with "this bat". Or even, if someone wanted to switch out the Jeter bat, and sell any Jeter bat with the letter, they could.
For other team COA's, I have also seen team letter that have a blank line where someone writes in pen what the item is. Five to ten years from now when someone sees this type of letter when they are looking to buy an item, they might have no clue if this letter really originated from the team, or is connected to the item. Many of these letters can be created on a computer by anyone.
I would be interesed in seeing what your paperwork looks like and how it connects directly to the item.

Good luck with the deal,
Tom

[G1X]

As a collector, I have never asked for paperwork and never will. Too many times I have seen teams dish out letters stating that a jersey is game-worn when it is nothing more than obviously team-issued or made for charity purposes such as game-cut jerseys. There is also the problem where dishonest folks will take a good letter and put it with a bad jersey. (See Tom's excellent post.)

As a dealer, I sell mostly NFL jerseys of common players at very reasonable prices. I rarely provide team paperwork unless it is offered by the team. My customers do not demand team paperwork for the most part, so I never ask for team letters when negotiating a deal. But again, I am dealing mostly in "commons" and avoid the super stars for a variety of reasons. Why bother asking for a letter on a 2005 Eagles jersey of Michael Lewis that shows brutal game wear?

I have made small bulk buys from both the Eagles and the Redskins over the past several years despite both teams dealing almost exclusively with other companies. These were legitimate deals made through their respective front offices. So, are my Eagles and 'Skins jerseys not any good simply because they don't have paperwork?

Despite what some might think or say, don't believe for a moment that items never "escape" from the teams. The idea of a guy standing at the back entrance with a handful of Ben Franklins waiting for the equipment manager to sneak out a few jerseys is probably fantasy for the most part, but some stuff gets out from various sources, and I would think that it is done legitimately in almost every case. Just because stuff gets out into the hobby doesn't mean that anything illegal or underhanded took place.

As for demanding paperwork, it is just my humble opinion, but part of the problem with the hobby is that some collectors depend way too much on paperwork. There are more than a few collectors who wouldn't know a legitimate jersey if they held it in their hand. Instead of worrying about the fancy paperwork, they should be learning about the jerseys.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL jerseys

[mvandor]

With all due respect Chris, in cutting your deal with the Raiders to include such LOA paperwork, you have a pretty clear vested financial interest in magnifying the value of such while creating worries about items lacking what you have to offer. Your post is of course self promotional and not so thinly veiled. Your sandbox, your rules, granted - no complaints, just the observation.

Should such be a plus? Sure. But I do find it pretty likely that players take jerseys home, as do other personnel with adequate opportunity or authority where the checks and balances in place don't prevent same.

Is a team LOA a plus? Certainly, particularly if tied to the item through photos and holograms, but very often those team LOA's are just letterhead that can be matched to any item. Hopefully your procedures are or will be tighter.

[both-teams-played-hard]

These are my own comments cut&pasted from another thread:

"Impeccable sources of provenance, team paperwork, letters of authenticity, certificates of opinion, notorized statements, etc. really don't mean jack. They look nice when framed next to the item in question, to impress the neophytes. A game used jersey or bat or glove either is real or it is not real. Legitimate items authenticate themselves. Think about Tony's Arod bat.....Arod himself claims it to be something that it may not be."

However, I can see why team paperwork can help a dealer's sales. Many collectors are new to the game and they might need re-assurance. Many are not collectors at all; they just dig sports.
So, as for team letters of provenance: "Nice paperwork, if you can get it."
The LOAs might not always correctly identify the item. A team letter is gravy, but gravy sometimes has lumps.

[scottanservitz]

I think the posts made on this topic are all correct in one aspect, that sure team letters are very reassuring to buyers that really don't know what they are looking for. I've seen jerseys that have team COA and show little to no wear. I actually own one. I have no doubt it came from the team and the jersey saw action in maybe one game. We have also debated whether team repairs prove actual authenticity. I know there are many good jerseys without team repairs. I tend to agree that the jersey should prove it is or isn't a gamer. Especially NFL jerseys. A punter jersey versus a linebacker jersey would definitely tell a better story than a piece of paper. I've bought from Mark without a team letter and was 100% satisfied with the jersey because the jersey was the telltale about its use. I do like the fact that most of JO's jerseys say what game they were used in. The buyer has a very high chance of being able to find photos that will match up to the jersey. I for one would say photo evidence is very crucial in identifying authenticity. I have one jersey that I found about 5-6 things that match up perfectly to the jersey. For me that is the most reassuring proof I could get. And it doesn't have a team letter. I also have an older jersey from the Patriots that has the team stamp on the inside. It is also photo matched. I have a Rams jersey with the Prova tag. They said if the data base doesn't have the game listed that the jersey is just team issued. My jersey shows numerous turf burns and sweat marks. I know others that have similar jerseys with wear on them and Prova is known for having some glitches in their system. The shirt tells the story. So in closing, yes team LOA are nice. But in the end the jersey has to tell the buyer something in the way of where it's been. Atleast in my eyes.
Scott

[jppopma]

These letters and safeguards are all good to us here, but in reality I'm not sure how much it will help elimiate the fake jerseys out there. It will certainly slow it down. However, sadly there are too many people out there that are not informed and will by these beyond fake jerseys that show up on ebay and elsewhere.

I guess we should appreciate any step, no matter how large or small, that we can take to eliminating the problems in our hobby. Hopefully the FBI investigation will get alot of press and in turn educate people about what is out there (but not so much as to affect our legit item's prices or scare people away from out hobby).

[suave1477]

With all due respect Chris, in cutting your deal with the Raiders to include such LOA paperwork, you have a pretty clear vested financial interest in magnifying the value of such while creating worries about items lacking what you have to offer. Your post is of course self promotional and not so thinly veiled. Your sandbox, your rules, granted - no complaints, just the observation.

Should such be a plus? Sure. But I do find it pretty likely that players take jerseys home, as do other personnel with adequate opportunity or authority where the checks and balances in place don't prevent same.

Is a team LOA a plus? Certainly, particularly if tied to the item through photos and holograms, but very often those team LOA's are just letterhead that can be matched to any item. Hopefully your procedures are or will be tighter.

I think this was a great statement by this member.

I would also like to add.

Chris I would also like to say your saying everything is being accounted for the front offices, equipment managers, and who ever else on these staffs are keep an eye on everything. But one thing you left out.........

WHAT ABOUT THE PLAYER HIMSELF???

Its not like we know of any Home Run Hitter that plays for a team in New York thats sells his own stuff out the back door????????

So what would stop a NFL Player for ordering a couple of his own jerseys on the side and do what he wants with them whether it be to wear them and give them away to his family or for sale for profit???

Who's stopping the player????

[kingjammy24]

many great points made so far. personally, i don't think the issue here is whether legit items exist without team paperwork. obviously they do, in the same way that there are also items with team paperwork that aren't what they're purported to be. rather, i think the real issue is whether collectors, in the face of "exclusive team deals", should limit themselves only to items with team provenance. that is, if legit items exist with provenance and without then why choose the ones without? sure mark hayne's jerseys are good but if you could purchase the same jerseys with team paperwork then isn't that a more attractive option? i see this as a "provenance vs no provenance" issue and to that end, i think there's merit in chris' argument. while provenance is no guarantee, i'd think at a minimum it's preferable to not having any provenance. (and saying "impeccable team source" is tantamount to having no provenance).

where i disagree is with chris' estimations of legit jerseys leaving via unofficial channels. obviously there are fewer than evidenced by ebay but i don't think things are as airtight as seems to be implied here. look at steiner's "exclusive" deal with the red sox. lowell, beckett, papelbon, and pedroia have all legitimately offered many of their jerseys through PMI. manny took most of his from the sox and dodgers as well. that's some "exclusive" contract when notable players on the team are able to strike individual contracts with competing firms and market their jerseys through those firms. time and time again i've seen legit shirts escape "exclusive" deals via a myriad of ways and reasons. i've yet to see a truly, 100% iron-clad exclusive deal where barely a single shirt escapes. chris, you address this issue by saying you've "..personally met with both the marketing and operations people from the Raiders...they are all..highly ethical...the idea that these jerseys are/will be “getting out the back door” is just not true. While I don’t want to take the liberty of speaking for others, I can tell you the same is also likely true for the Cowboys, Bears, Vikings and Redskins."

things won't be flowing out the back because you've met with some raider folks and they struck you as highly ethical? if they were unethical, would they have come out and admitted it to you? or were you able to somehow conclusively suss out such highly private information? if bernie madoff gained enough trust to manage $50 billion and play every single one of his investors, many of them highly intelligent, and the SEC for fools, then i'm guessing that it'd be possible for the raiders equipment staff to pull one over on chris cavalier.

"While certainly there may be some instances where players may want to keep their jerseys or something along those lines, how many jerseys can there really be outside the ones going through the marketing companies when the marketing company has a deal with the team?"

lots. if each of the 53 members of the raiders kept only 3 of their jerseys from the 2008 regular season, that'd be 159 legit gamers from 2008 alone that wouldn't be from JO Sports. if your deal allows players to keep some of their shirts, as the steiner/red sox deal does, then all you need is a couple of ramirezs and ortizs to take the majority of their shirts and market them privately. if jamarcus russell pulls a manny ramirez and takes most of his shirts, what will JO Sports do then? claim his shirts aren't legit because they don't come from JO Sports?

"In talking with the Raiders, I was able to find out that there had only been one legitimate JaMarcus Russell game used jersey previously ever offered to the secondary market.."

you were told there was only one legitimate one released. this may be different than how many were actually released. after all, if some were released and shouldn't have been, those probably wouldn't have been disclosed to you. anyway, did the number given include any jerseys that jamarcus took and resold himself/privately?

anyway, chris asked a blanket question and i don't think there's a blanket answer. i think every situation ought to be evaluated on its own merits. each person is different, each team is different, each company is different. all team provenance is not created equal. the JO Sports deals will be evaluated based on the quality of their offerings, not simply on their provenance. i think solid provenance is definitely a good thing. i don't think it's infallible. i don't believe things will be as airtight as chris implies. i think it definitely behooves JO Sports' bottomline for people to believe things are completely airtight; that it's as black and white as "if it's from us, it's legit, if it's not from us, it's not legit". as i said, i've seen too many athletes take their own shirts (even going so far as to fool team/league staff), shirts taken by team staff, taken by visting VIPs, etc to believe the whole thing can be airtight.

rudy.

[jppopma]

While team LOAs have their problems and some may question their worth, I have always gone with the notion that anything is better that nothing. Even if it doesn't mean anything to you, it may be the breaking point to a buyer at some point down the road. If the team does not issue a LOA on team letterhead, it would be wise to keep a copy of the sales slip, packing slip, or anything else to show later on that the item was indeed purchased from the team.