Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

[G1X]

As a collector, I have never asked for paperwork and never will. Too many times I have seen teams dish out letters stating that a jersey is game-worn when it is nothing more than obviously team-issued or made for charity purposes such as game-cut jerseys. There is also the problem where dishonest folks will take a good letter and put it with a bad jersey. (See Tom's excellent post.)

As a dealer, I sell mostly NFL jerseys of common players at very reasonable prices. I rarely provide team paperwork unless it is offered by the team. My customers do not demand team paperwork for the most part, so I never ask for team letters when negotiating a deal. But again, I am dealing mostly in "commons" and avoid the super stars for a variety of reasons. Why bother asking for a letter on a 2005 Eagles jersey of Michael Lewis that shows brutal game wear?

I have made small bulk buys from both the Eagles and the Redskins over the past several years despite both teams dealing almost exclusively with other companies. These were legitimate deals made through their respective front offices. So, are my Eagles and 'Skins jerseys not any good simply because they don't have paperwork?

Despite what some might think or say, don't believe for a moment that items never "escape" from the teams. The idea of a guy standing at the back entrance with a handful of Ben Franklins waiting for the equipment manager to sneak out a few jerseys is probably fantasy for the most part, but some stuff gets out from various sources, and I would think that it is done legitimately in almost every case. Just because stuff gets out into the hobby doesn't mean that anything illegal or underhanded took place.

As for demanding paperwork, it is just my humble opinion, but part of the problem with the hobby is that some collectors depend way too much on paperwork. There are more than a few collectors who wouldn't know a legitimate jersey if they held it in their hand. Instead of worrying about the fancy paperwork, they should be learning about the jerseys.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL jerseys

[mvandor]

With all due respect Chris, in cutting your deal with the Raiders to include such LOA paperwork, you have a pretty clear vested financial interest in magnifying the value of such while creating worries about items lacking what you have to offer. Your post is of course self promotional and not so thinly veiled. Your sandbox, your rules, granted - no complaints, just the observation.

Should such be a plus? Sure. But I do find it pretty likely that players take jerseys home, as do other personnel with adequate opportunity or authority where the checks and balances in place don't prevent same.

Is a team LOA a plus? Certainly, particularly if tied to the item through photos and holograms, but very often those team LOA's are just letterhead that can be matched to any item. Hopefully your procedures are or will be tighter.

[both-teams-played-hard]

These are my own comments cut&pasted from another thread:

"Impeccable sources of provenance, team paperwork, letters of authenticity, certificates of opinion, notorized statements, etc. really don't mean jack. They look nice when framed next to the item in question, to impress the neophytes. A game used jersey or bat or glove either is real or it is not real. Legitimate items authenticate themselves. Think about Tony's Arod bat.....Arod himself claims it to be something that it may not be."

However, I can see why team paperwork can help a dealer's sales. Many collectors are new to the game and they might need re-assurance. Many are not collectors at all; they just dig sports.
So, as for team letters of provenance: "Nice paperwork, if you can get it."
The LOAs might not always correctly identify the item. A team letter is gravy, but gravy sometimes has lumps.

[scottanservitz]

I think the posts made on this topic are all correct in one aspect, that sure team letters are very reassuring to buyers that really don't know what they are looking for. I've seen jerseys that have team COA and show little to no wear. I actually own one. I have no doubt it came from the team and the jersey saw action in maybe one game. We have also debated whether team repairs prove actual authenticity. I know there are many good jerseys without team repairs. I tend to agree that the jersey should prove it is or isn't a gamer. Especially NFL jerseys. A punter jersey versus a linebacker jersey would definitely tell a better story than a piece of paper. I've bought from Mark without a team letter and was 100% satisfied with the jersey because the jersey was the telltale about its use. I do like the fact that most of JO's jerseys say what game they were used in. The buyer has a very high chance of being able to find photos that will match up to the jersey. I for one would say photo evidence is very crucial in identifying authenticity. I have one jersey that I found about 5-6 things that match up perfectly to the jersey. For me that is the most reassuring proof I could get. And it doesn't have a team letter. I also have an older jersey from the Patriots that has the team stamp on the inside. It is also photo matched. I have a Rams jersey with the Prova tag. They said if the data base doesn't have the game listed that the jersey is just team issued. My jersey shows numerous turf burns and sweat marks. I know others that have similar jerseys with wear on them and Prova is known for having some glitches in their system. The shirt tells the story. So in closing, yes team LOA are nice. But in the end the jersey has to tell the buyer something in the way of where it's been. Atleast in my eyes.
Scott

[skyking26]

Everybody knows where I stand on this. Letters and homework. The more info the better.

I received an email today from a gentleman selling a 2000 McGwire jersey. Wants an offer. Not one picture sent. I'm supposed to make an offer based on what??

RK

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Everyone,

First of all, thanks to everyone who has already shared their thoughts on this thread. I think this is an extremely important issue and I hope more people will also share their opinions. At this point, I did want to make a few points of clarification:

1) To make sure it is clear, as I stated in my initial post, the comments I made pertained to modern football teams who have deals with memorabilia companies. In particular, I was specifically looking to address modern star football player jerseys as those are the ones that are being targeted by whoever is making up the fake ones and those are the ones constantly up for sale throughout the hobby (that is why I used the JaMarcus Russell, Adrian Peterson and Tom Brady examples).

2) Contrary to the post that accused the topic of being one of “self promotion”, the reason for the post is actually to help collectors understand more about this major problem in the hobby. For those of you who don’t think it’s a problem, I can tell you the FBI is investigating this very issue. I just don’t think the FBI would spend their time investigating something that hasn’t been established as a legitimate problem.

While the FBI is doing what they are doing, we are also trying to do everything we can to protect collectors from bogus items that are being disseminated in the secondary market. That is why GUU is now involved with so many items that are being sourced directly from the teams (especially football). We know there is a problem in the market and we are working to provide collectors with truly legitimate items.

3) Regarding the LOAs, I think the point about the LOAs matching the items is a good one. Let me tell you what we are doing with the Raiders (JO Sports is also using the same protocols for Vikings, Redskins and Bears items). First of all, we are trying to get every item unwashed. All of the initial Raiders items we have received thus far are unwashed and show visible wear. In addition, all the Raider jerseys will have a “ThermoPatch” placed on the inside of every jersey which indicates the player and the game (or games) in which the jersey was used. When a jersey was used for multiple games the patch will use the term “thru” to indicate multiple game usage. The ThermoPatch will also have a hologram on it that will correspond to a matching hologram on a separate, physical LOA and the LOA will be signed by a representative of the Raiders.

I hope that makes things a little clearer regarding both the scope of the original post as well as why we are taking the efforts we are taking to make sure collectors have access to truly legitimate items. I have really enjoyed reading the comments thus far and look forward to hearing any additional thoughts/opinions as well.

[ndevlin]

I dont know about you guys, but I learned quite a bit with GUU's auction of Rollie Fingers glove(with letter),the Arod bat with a letter signed by him, and the items going on with Favre.

If you want a letter, let me know, I can get one for you. Is it comforting? Sure, but it doesnt mean the item is what it is.

So are you asking our opinion based on the agreements you have made with NFL teams? If so, wouldnt that be for promotional use? Lets face it folks, this site is for profit now, nothing more, nothing less.

[MichaelofSF]

Imagine if all 32 NFL teams had contracts with dealers to distribute their unwashed used jerseys. Imagine if all of these jerseys came with team letters with serial numbers on the letter and on the jersey.

If this were the standard there would be no reason to buy a back door/"impeccable team source" jerseys. There would be no reason to buy an undocumented jersey because there would be so many documented jerseys out there. The premium we now pay for documentation (NFL auctions/JO Sports/GUU store) would possibly be less too because this would now be standard. I currently am willing to pay more for a jersey from one of these places because they are easy to photomatch so I know the jersey I buy is good. If I knew all jerseys on the market were good, this premium would no longer exist. If all jerseys were documented, then jerseys without documentation couldn't exist as much as they do today.

Would there still be some of these bad jerseys? Sure, there will always be thiefs and suckers. Would it be easier to catch these criminals? Yes because the smarter criminals would find a different area for their thievery leaving the dumber ones to be caught. Use can be faked, team letters without specificity can be faked/switched.

I think MeiGray/JO sports/GUU store are a leap in the right direction. I know the prices are higher right now but the market will dictate what sells and what doesn't. If they become the standard, the supply of good jerseys will be higher, the premium we pay for documentation will go down and prices will have to come down (think Steiner).

Team letters done properly should be demanded going forward not because I need it to know a jersey is good, but to make less room for the bad jerseys.

[jppopma]

These letters and safeguards are all good to us here, but in reality I'm not sure how much it will help elimiate the fake jerseys out there. It will certainly slow it down. However, sadly there are too many people out there that are not informed and will by these beyond fake jerseys that show up on ebay and elsewhere.

I guess we should appreciate any step, no matter how large or small, that we can take to eliminating the problems in our hobby. Hopefully the FBI investigation will get alot of press and in turn educate people about what is out there (but not so much as to affect our legit item's prices or scare people away from out hobby).

[suave1477]

With all due respect Chris, in cutting your deal with the Raiders to include such LOA paperwork, you have a pretty clear vested financial interest in magnifying the value of such while creating worries about items lacking what you have to offer. Your post is of course self promotional and not so thinly veiled. Your sandbox, your rules, granted - no complaints, just the observation.

Should such be a plus? Sure. But I do find it pretty likely that players take jerseys home, as do other personnel with adequate opportunity or authority where the checks and balances in place don't prevent same.

Is a team LOA a plus? Certainly, particularly if tied to the item through photos and holograms, but very often those team LOA's are just letterhead that can be matched to any item. Hopefully your procedures are or will be tighter.

I think this was a great statement by this member.

I would also like to add.

Chris I would also like to say your saying everything is being accounted for the front offices, equipment managers, and who ever else on these staffs are keep an eye on everything. But one thing you left out.........

WHAT ABOUT THE PLAYER HIMSELF???

Its not like we know of any Home Run Hitter that plays for a team in New York thats sells his own stuff out the back door????????

So what would stop a NFL Player for ordering a couple of his own jerseys on the side and do what he wants with them whether it be to wear them and give them away to his family or for sale for profit???

Who's stopping the player????