Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Everyone,

I saw a recent interaction of the forum regarding whether or not team LOAs are important when buying modern game used items. While I am certainly not going to make a blanket statement for all current game used items, I would like to address whether or not it is important for a game used item to have team paperwork when it comes from a professional sports football team that has a deal with a memorabilia company.

Although we have yet to formally announced it, Game Used Universe recently completed a team deal with the Oakland Raiders and J.O. Sports, Inc. For those not familiar with J.O. Sports, Inc., they also have team deals with the Minnesota Vikings, Chicago Bears and Washington Redskins. Among other things, the deal will give GUU and J.O. Sports, Inc. exclusive rights to market Raider game used items for the next three years.

While we were in discussions with the Raiders, I was speaking with someone who was interested in acquiring a game used JaMarcus Russell jersey. Prior to the GUU/JO/Raider deal, those knowledgeable in the industry were well aware that the Raiders really haven’t put many modern gamers out on the secondary market. Knowing it was nearly impossible to find legitimate current Raider game used items, I told this person I had some contacts with the Raiders and would let them know if I would be able to get them the jersey they wanted. In talking with the Raiders, I was able to find out that there had only been one legitimate JaMarcus Russell game used jersey previously ever offered to the secondary market and that jersey had been sold in a Raider auction through Ticketmaster. As things progressed with the Raiders and we knew that the deal would likely happen, I thought I would be able to impress our customer with our ability to provide him with this hard-to-find item.

As we completed the deal with the Raiders I went back to the customer only to find out they had already acquired what they were told was a JaMarcus Russell “gamer” from a dealer in the hobby. When I heard this I thought to myself, how could this dealer get a JaMarcus Russell gamer? The one sold through Ticketmaster almost surely went to a collector. What are the odds of the dealer actually having a legitimate JaMarcus Russell gamer, especially one without team paperwork? Quite frankly, I’d say the odds were almost zero.

As I thought about this I also thought about all the other supposed football “gamers” without team paperwork I have seen offered through various venues in the secondary market when I know marketing companies have rights to those items. While certainly there may be some instances where players may want to keep their jerseys or something along those lines, how many jerseys can there really be outside the ones going through the marketing companies when the marketing company has a deal with the team? I know the deal we have with the Raiders is exclusive and, although the Raiders do have the right to offer a few on their own in various Raider events, every Raider gamer will come with documentation from the team. How could it be then that our customer was able to get a JaMarcus Russell “gamer” from a dealer in the hobby without Raider paperwork?

I also know about the J.O. Sports deal with the Vikings. Although J.O. Sports doesn’t get every Adrian Peterson game used jersey, they get most of them and know where the ones they don’t get end up. How is it then that there are so many Adrian Peterson “gamers” being offered in the market, especially without team paperwork? And again, everyone who knows the hobby intimately knows it is just about impossible to get New England Patriots game used jerseys, let alone a legitimate Tom Brady game used jersey. Yet, I don’t know how many Tom Brady “game used” jerseys I have seen on the market in the last six months alone, a number of them with third-party authentication.

For those of you thinking these items are “getting out the back door” let me tell you that I have personally met with both the marketing and operations people from the Raiders. I will tell you that they are all knowledgeable, intelligent and highly ethical. In fact, I personally go to the Raiders facility to pick up the jerseys directly from them. To be honest, the idea that these jerseys are/will be “getting out the back door” is just not true. While I don’t want to take the liberty of speaking for others, I can tell you the same is also likely true for the Cowboys, Bears, Vikings and Redskins.

To go one step further, it is my understanding that the FBI is looking into where some of these supposed “game used” jerseys are coming from and I hope something is done about it. I also hope the entities selling these types of jerseys for consignors will begin to take more responsibility in what they are selling. Instead of putting money first and writing it of as it just being a “matter or opinion”, those accepting consignments should be aware of the deals these teams have with marketing companies and take responsibility when consignors try to sell these supposed “gamers” through their venues.

Lastly, collectors need to take the time to educate themselves as well. On items where they know team deals exist, they should DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK. In my opinion, there will come a time when the general collecting community will become more aware of team deals and collectors will know there is just no way so many of these supposed “gamers” without team paperwork can really exist. I hope at that point those creating these items will be held accountable for what they have done. To me, it is no different than a counterfeiter only one uses paper as their medium and the other a garment. Whether or not that happens remains to be seen. However, what I do believe is the ones who are really going to lose out are the ones buying these items believing they are getting “deals”. They will be the ones in the end who will be holding these suspect items when the general collecting community becomes more aware of the situation. As a collector, when you know a professional team has a deal with a marketing company for their game used items it is up to you to DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK. Otherwise, you may end up being the one left holding the bag.

[TFig27]

Team paperwork is good to a point. I believe there should be some consistency between the teams on how the COAs are written. Are there pictures of the item? Is there some numbered database to look up a COA? There needs to be some way to directly connect the paperwork to the item.
I collect mostly baseball and am not sure what your team paperwork looks like. But, I purchased a Derek Jeter game used bat direct from Steiner this year and received a paper COA signed by Derek. But, there's no way to tie this bat to the letter. This has to be one of the most ridiculous ways to have a COA for an item. Now, I plan on keeping the bat, so it really doesn't not affect me. But, if someone wanted to sell their bat they have no way of proving "this letter" goes with "this bat". Or even, if someone wanted to switch out the Jeter bat, and sell any Jeter bat with the letter, they could.
For other team COA's, I have also seen team letter that have a blank line where someone writes in pen what the item is. Five to ten years from now when someone sees this type of letter when they are looking to buy an item, they might have no clue if this letter really originated from the team, or is connected to the item. Many of these letters can be created on a computer by anyone.
I would be interesed in seeing what your paperwork looks like and how it connects directly to the item.

Good luck with the deal,
Tom

[G1X]

As a collector, I have never asked for paperwork and never will. Too many times I have seen teams dish out letters stating that a jersey is game-worn when it is nothing more than obviously team-issued or made for charity purposes such as game-cut jerseys. There is also the problem where dishonest folks will take a good letter and put it with a bad jersey. (See Tom's excellent post.)

As a dealer, I sell mostly NFL jerseys of common players at very reasonable prices. I rarely provide team paperwork unless it is offered by the team. My customers do not demand team paperwork for the most part, so I never ask for team letters when negotiating a deal. But again, I am dealing mostly in "commons" and avoid the super stars for a variety of reasons. Why bother asking for a letter on a 2005 Eagles jersey of Michael Lewis that shows brutal game wear?

I have made small bulk buys from both the Eagles and the Redskins over the past several years despite both teams dealing almost exclusively with other companies. These were legitimate deals made through their respective front offices. So, are my Eagles and 'Skins jerseys not any good simply because they don't have paperwork?

Despite what some might think or say, don't believe for a moment that items never "escape" from the teams. The idea of a guy standing at the back entrance with a handful of Ben Franklins waiting for the equipment manager to sneak out a few jerseys is probably fantasy for the most part, but some stuff gets out from various sources, and I would think that it is done legitimately in almost every case. Just because stuff gets out into the hobby doesn't mean that anything illegal or underhanded took place.

As for demanding paperwork, it is just my humble opinion, but part of the problem with the hobby is that some collectors depend way too much on paperwork. There are more than a few collectors who wouldn't know a legitimate jersey if they held it in their hand. Instead of worrying about the fancy paperwork, they should be learning about the jerseys.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL jerseys

[mvandor]

With all due respect Chris, in cutting your deal with the Raiders to include such LOA paperwork, you have a pretty clear vested financial interest in magnifying the value of such while creating worries about items lacking what you have to offer. Your post is of course self promotional and not so thinly veiled. Your sandbox, your rules, granted - no complaints, just the observation.

Should such be a plus? Sure. But I do find it pretty likely that players take jerseys home, as do other personnel with adequate opportunity or authority where the checks and balances in place don't prevent same.

Is a team LOA a plus? Certainly, particularly if tied to the item through photos and holograms, but very often those team LOA's are just letterhead that can be matched to any item. Hopefully your procedures are or will be tighter.

[both-teams-played-hard]

These are my own comments cut&pasted from another thread:

"Impeccable sources of provenance, team paperwork, letters of authenticity, certificates of opinion, notorized statements, etc. really don't mean jack. They look nice when framed next to the item in question, to impress the neophytes. A game used jersey or bat or glove either is real or it is not real. Legitimate items authenticate themselves. Think about Tony's Arod bat.....Arod himself claims it to be something that it may not be."

However, I can see why team paperwork can help a dealer's sales. Many collectors are new to the game and they might need re-assurance. Many are not collectors at all; they just dig sports.
So, as for team letters of provenance: "Nice paperwork, if you can get it."
The LOAs might not always correctly identify the item. A team letter is gravy, but gravy sometimes has lumps.

[jppopma]

While team LOAs have their problems and some may question their worth, I have always gone with the notion that anything is better that nothing. Even if it doesn't mean anything to you, it may be the breaking point to a buyer at some point down the road. If the team does not issue a LOA on team letterhead, it would be wise to keep a copy of the sales slip, packing slip, or anything else to show later on that the item was indeed purchased from the team.

[scottanservitz]

I think the posts made on this topic are all correct in one aspect, that sure team letters are very reassuring to buyers that really don't know what they are looking for. I've seen jerseys that have team COA and show little to no wear. I actually own one. I have no doubt it came from the team and the jersey saw action in maybe one game. We have also debated whether team repairs prove actual authenticity. I know there are many good jerseys without team repairs. I tend to agree that the jersey should prove it is or isn't a gamer. Especially NFL jerseys. A punter jersey versus a linebacker jersey would definitely tell a better story than a piece of paper. I've bought from Mark without a team letter and was 100% satisfied with the jersey because the jersey was the telltale about its use. I do like the fact that most of JO's jerseys say what game they were used in. The buyer has a very high chance of being able to find photos that will match up to the jersey. I for one would say photo evidence is very crucial in identifying authenticity. I have one jersey that I found about 5-6 things that match up perfectly to the jersey. For me that is the most reassuring proof I could get. And it doesn't have a team letter. I also have an older jersey from the Patriots that has the team stamp on the inside. It is also photo matched. I have a Rams jersey with the Prova tag. They said if the data base doesn't have the game listed that the jersey is just team issued. My jersey shows numerous turf burns and sweat marks. I know others that have similar jerseys with wear on them and Prova is known for having some glitches in their system. The shirt tells the story. So in closing, yes team LOA are nice. But in the end the jersey has to tell the buyer something in the way of where it's been. Atleast in my eyes.
Scott

[skyking26]

Everybody knows where I stand on this. Letters and homework. The more info the better.

I received an email today from a gentleman selling a 2000 McGwire jersey. Wants an offer. Not one picture sent. I'm supposed to make an offer based on what??

RK

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Everyone,

First of all, thanks to everyone who has already shared their thoughts on this thread. I think this is an extremely important issue and I hope more people will also share their opinions. At this point, I did want to make a few points of clarification:

1) To make sure it is clear, as I stated in my initial post, the comments I made pertained to modern football teams who have deals with memorabilia companies. In particular, I was specifically looking to address modern star football player jerseys as those are the ones that are being targeted by whoever is making up the fake ones and those are the ones constantly up for sale throughout the hobby (that is why I used the JaMarcus Russell, Adrian Peterson and Tom Brady examples).

2) Contrary to the post that accused the topic of being one of “self promotion”, the reason for the post is actually to help collectors understand more about this major problem in the hobby. For those of you who don’t think it’s a problem, I can tell you the FBI is investigating this very issue. I just don’t think the FBI would spend their time investigating something that hasn’t been established as a legitimate problem.

While the FBI is doing what they are doing, we are also trying to do everything we can to protect collectors from bogus items that are being disseminated in the secondary market. That is why GUU is now involved with so many items that are being sourced directly from the teams (especially football). We know there is a problem in the market and we are working to provide collectors with truly legitimate items.

3) Regarding the LOAs, I think the point about the LOAs matching the items is a good one. Let me tell you what we are doing with the Raiders (JO Sports is also using the same protocols for Vikings, Redskins and Bears items). First of all, we are trying to get every item unwashed. All of the initial Raiders items we have received thus far are unwashed and show visible wear. In addition, all the Raider jerseys will have a “ThermoPatch” placed on the inside of every jersey which indicates the player and the game (or games) in which the jersey was used. When a jersey was used for multiple games the patch will use the term “thru” to indicate multiple game usage. The ThermoPatch will also have a hologram on it that will correspond to a matching hologram on a separate, physical LOA and the LOA will be signed by a representative of the Raiders.

I hope that makes things a little clearer regarding both the scope of the original post as well as why we are taking the efforts we are taking to make sure collectors have access to truly legitimate items. I have really enjoyed reading the comments thus far and look forward to hearing any additional thoughts/opinions as well.

[ndevlin]

I dont know about you guys, but I learned quite a bit with GUU's auction of Rollie Fingers glove(with letter),the Arod bat with a letter signed by him, and the items going on with Favre.

If you want a letter, let me know, I can get one for you. Is it comforting? Sure, but it doesnt mean the item is what it is.

So are you asking our opinion based on the agreements you have made with NFL teams? If so, wouldnt that be for promotional use? Lets face it folks, this site is for profit now, nothing more, nothing less.