Hunt Auction - GU Vintage Football Helmets

[aeneas01]

like mastros' last auction, hunt will be offering a huge number of game used vintage football helmets in their upcoming "nfl experience" auction slated for saturday, jan 31st (super bowl eve). and like mastro's last auction, hunt has chosen a "live" auction format as well. will the super bowl crowds in tampa, where the live auction will be held, drive up auction activity? will super bowl "high rollers" drive up hammer prices? time will tell and it should be interesting. whatever the case, i can't imagine that the activity could possibly be less than the action at mastro's last live auction.

for the past two weeks i've been playing phone tag with hunt, trying to get questions about the helmets answered as well as additional photos. i sent an itemized list requesting specific information regarding helmet date codes, interior markings, etc. and i also requested photos of certain areas of each helmet. at the eleventh hour, right before hunt packed up the lots for the trip to tampa, cheryl goyda of hunt managed to email two additional photos of each helmet i was interested in. unfortunately i never did get answers to my questions nor did i receive the specific photos i had requested. frankly i can't believe this sort of information, including photos, was not prepared in advance in anticipation of such inquiries - especially considering the high value of many of these items.

i will say, however, that every person i spoke with at hunt, including cheryl goyda, was nothing but extremely courteous and professional. further, phone calls were returned and so were emails. the fact that i did not receive answers to my many questions had more to do with missing each other than anything else imo. however, i did put my questions in writing, in an email that hunt received, and therefore believe that someone at hunt should have been able to get back to me with answers via email. but it never happened.

anyway, here are some of my thoughts regarding a few of the helmets that will be featured - there are some real gems. also, cheryl goda reminded me that the additional photos she emailed were property of hunt and therefore could not be shared, so i won't. but she also said that she would be more than happy to answer any questions about lots from tampa and can be reached at 610-524-0822.

norm van brocklin:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm

i have no idea why hunt chose to prominently feature a unitas helmet in their advertising campaign when they had their hands on this treasure - i mean this thing is as good as it gets! authentic rams helmets from this era are just not around, in fact i would say that this is easily one of the rarest nfl helmets to have ever hit the auction blocks. the only thing that would trump this beautiful lid would a a transparent rt2 rams helmet. this particular helmet is an early rk4 6-point suspension helmet fitted with factory anti-concussion padding and ultra-rare, half-pie, snap-in leather jaw pads. van brocklin (1949-1957 with the rams), wore an rt2 transparent helmet during most of his years with the rams, from his rookie year through at least 1955, possibly 1956. as such, this helmet would be from vb's last two years with the rams, or perhaps even from just his last year. what is certain is vb wore an rk4 during his final season with the rams. given that the rk4 helmet was introduced in 1954, it would have still been a pretty new riddell model in '56 and '57. did this particular rk4 rams helmet ever belong to vb, was it ever worn by vb? it appears that the provenance is what you would want it to be - but we all know how that goes sometimes. whatever the case another thing is for certain - this is an ultra rare, authentic rams helmet from yesteryear. i would recommend that anyone interested in this lid contact cheryl goyda and ask her to remove the concussion padding, which is very easy to do without causing harm to the helmet or padding, to see if there exists any ink-stamped date information on the inside of the helmet shell.



some nice shots of vb in action - photo in upper left corner shows vb wearing an rk4 helmet (the type of helmet up for auction) and is from the '56 or '57 season, the other photos show vb wearing his transparent rt2 helmet. although the rt2 and rk4 are very similar, it's usually pretty easy to tell the difference because rt2 helmets tend to show "dimpling" in the rivet areas of the helmet. this is caused by the interior cotton suspension webbing shrinking over time, due to becoming wet, which pulled the soft rt2 plastic (tenite) inward at the rivet points. the rk4 helmets were made from a much sturdier plastic which eliminated this problem. also, as the rams moved from rt2 helmets to rk4 helmets, the shape of the horns changed - the horn tips became less exaggerated...




johnny unitas:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm

yet another unitas "gamer", the fifth (i repeat, the fifth) unitas "gamer" to have hit the blocks in the last year and a half. incredible. and yet they continue to sell - for very big bucks. again, incredible. that's the bad news, the good news is that the last two entries (including this one) are better representations than the others. nonetheless, this offering has problems as well and i don't think it's the real deal. but guess what? who cares? it's sure to fetch at least $20k anyway. this particular helmet is a riddell "kra-lite-8" (hunt got the lot description wrong calling it an "88") which allows us to date its birthday to 1970, the only year riddell used this designation. consequently we can rule out the 14 previous years unitas played for the colts (1956-1969) and just concentrate on the last 3 (1970-1972). looking at the many photos and film frames of unitas from 1970-1972, none come up showing him wearing a tk helmet with the rubber nose snubber in place, it had been removed. in fact when unitas packed his bags for san diego, he conitnued to sport a tk without the rubber nose snubber. yet this latest offering shows the snubber perfectly intact.

the upper left photo shows the "unitas" helmet being offered by hunt, the upper right photo shows unitas's hof display, and the other photos show unitas from 1970-1972. check out the tear in the stripe i've circled - it appears that the hof has the last helmet unitas wore during his final years with the colts, not hunt.




vintage gamers:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm

four very, very nice vintage game used helmets. particulary special are the steelers and rams rk2 helmets.




joe montana:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm

another autographed montana "gamer" with lots of problems. if anyone is interested in bidding on this item i would call cheryl and ask for the date code (found below the left ear hole, inside the helmet or behind the rear neck pad). but even if the date code lined up, i would still be very doubtful. for one, montana sported a "red dot" (standard) opo facemask, the facemask in the auction is a "green dot" opo facemask (large). further, montana also sported a red dot helmet, the helmet in the auction is a green dot. in short, montana wore a smaller lid and facemask.

upper left photo is the "montana" lid offered by hunt. i've circled the size "dots" (facemasks & helmet). i've also included a couple of other interesting photos: the photo at the bottom left shows montana leaving the pro bowl game with a seattle seahawks helmet, which he more than likely traded for his helmet. the photo at the bottom right is from montana's rookie year when he sported a wilson f2002, the same type of helmet he wore at notre dame. that was the only year montana wore a wilson with the niners.




dwight clark:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm

this helmet was offered at b&e collectibles website and there's a lot to like about it, clark definitely wore an early af2 as presented. but, oddly, clark sported an out-of-date wildcat bumper with the riddell logo stenciled in uppercase, not the ubiquitous riddell logo that appears in the auction. what's so strange about this clark oddity is that the stenciled wildcat bumper had pretty much run its course by the mid '70s yet he sported it through 1983! by the mid '80s clark had adopted the "49ers" bumper decal that covered the riddell logo and had switched facemasks, so even if the typical riddell logo (as pictured in the auction) lurked below the "49ers" decal, the auction facemask would still be incorrect. hmm...




a couple of nice eagles gamers:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm

two great looking eagles gamers circa 1969-1973. not sure why, but this has always been my favorite eagles helmet scheme - probably because the wings show so well against the white shell. the helmet on the right is attributed to tim rossovich and, consistent with what rossovich wore during that period, the auction helmet is an early h9 microfit. is it tr's lid? if so, it doesn't match the game photo of tr shown below. the helmet on the left is a classic tk2 attributed al coleman (not pictured). both great looking authentic lids imo that could have very well belonged to the players mentioned.




a few more lids:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm

a great looking 4-year giants lid, a wd1, which the giants sported from 1976-1979 (the hunt lost description incorrectly describes it as a circa '80s lid), a nice chiefs gladiator helmet, although it's missing its padding, which sports an interesting, custom white dungard dg104 facemask, a cowboys lid and another autographed "payton gamer" - apparently any navy wilson with a "c" on it, autographed payton, is automatically a payton "gamer"




some more:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm

the cowboys helmet is attributed to laidlaw and has been floated on ebay by ebayer dalcowbill for what seems like forever. this helmet strikes me as an authentic laidlaw gamer especially given that he did wear this unique, rare model (manufactured by a long since defunct texas company named "protective products". they weren't around for very long but they did produce great, heavily padded helmets. it seems that most of their helmets were destined for texas college teams but the cowboys, along with at least a couple of other nfl teams (chiefs, cards) were known to use them as well.) but dalcowbill has also floated some absolute bush helmets including a pearson "gamer" and a staubach "gamer".




leather helmets:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm

hunt always seems to offer a very nice selection of leather helmets and this auction is no exception. but for whatever reason leather helmets have never seemed to be as popular as their vintage plastic counterparts - could it be that most football fans like the helmet logos that leather helmets typically lack? who knows - but i really dig leather football helmets and am fortunate enough to have a few gems in my collection. fwiw it appears that all of the leather helmets offered at hunt have been treated - some like this look but i don't, i prefer their natural state. for those interested in leather football helmets i highly recommend ebay - oddly, these ancient relics aren't as rare as one might think and they abound on ebay. you can often pick up a real gem on ebay at a very reasonable price - that is unless you find yourself competing against mears for the lid. mears actively buys leather helmets on ebay (at least they used to) and relists them at their site at quite a markup - nothing wrong with this of course, but one could do much better on ebay, price-wise. in fact i think a few of the hunt helmets came from mears - i didn't take a close look but i know that mears definitely had at least one of these lids listed at their site. another great thing to look for are bulk lots - for whatever reason some auction houses like to bundle quite a few leather helmets together in a single lot and you can end getting them for a steal. keep the one or two you like and flip the others on ebay - you will pay for yours and most likely even turn a profit! however, i will say, bulk lots have become less common.

if you do decide to venture into leather football helmets i would recommend that you do a little homework tho because the number of styles and defunct manufacturers of leather helmets is about as limitless as the stars! and some styles from some manufacturers aren't worth squat! for example, here are some manufacturer names and they all have a line of styles: goldsmith, brine, draper-maynard, spaulding, rawlings, wilson, macgregor, nokona, wright & ditson, reach, stall & bean, ken-wel, low & campbell. i have about 5,000+ photos of leather helmets in my photo database, many with selling prices, so if you come across one that grabs you let me know and i'll give you an idea of its value.

here are a few of the leather helmets listed at hunt. "a" is an "executioner" style lid and probably the rarest and most desirable of all leather football helmets. hunt has listed an estimated value of $10k-$15k for this lid, which has been treated, but they can be had in the $6k range. if you see one on ebay you have to jump on it, you have to contact the seller and make him an offer, because someone else will!! most of these that hit ebay are "ended early". of course the seller is rarely offered close to what they're worth - i know because twice i've contacted ebayers that ended their auctions early for these things and told them that if they accepted less than "x" then they got robbed. one guy immediately relisted his (he had found it at a garage sale) and it sold for $6,500, he was blown away. the other guy decided to contact dealers armed with his new information - neither guy was offered more than $500 and neither guy knew what they had!

"b" is a "nose mask" and typically fetches around $500 at auction and, again oddly, they are not as rare as one might suspect. hunt has estimated the value of theirs at $1,500-$2,500 - on the very high side but it comes with the original box. collectors love things that come with their original box - regardless of how beat up the box is! "c" is a very nice little helmet that has made the rounds, again and again. mears owned this one for a bit, had it listed at their site - prior to this it made the rounds at the auction houses. this 8-spoke style was hugely popular in the '40s and just about every manufacturer had their own version with the wilson d236 probably being the most popular. fwiw most leather helmets that are dyed a color, whether it's the entire helmet or just a section such as the spokes, tend to fetch considerably higher prices.



speaking of executioner style helmets, here are a few that sold at auction along with their selling prices. i've also included a few other interesting photos...



...

[John in KY]

a few more lids:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm

a great looking 4-year giants lid, a wd1, which the giants sported from 1976-1979 (the hunt lost description incorrectly describes it as a circa '80s lid), a nice chiefs gladiator helmet, although it's missing its padding, which sports an interesting, custom white dungard dg104 facemask, a cowboys lid and another autographed "payton gamer" - apparently any navy wilson with a "c" on it, autographed payton, is automatically a payton "gamer"




some more:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm


...

aeneas01,

I have a couple of questions on these as I was looking through the Hunt auction; I'm glad you raised brought this up.

The Giants looks like a train wreck to me - that 1976-1979 era should have a white facemask, not a grey (they switched to white with the "Disco NY" helmets of 1975). Also, it couldn't be a WD-1; Riddell didn't make them until 1982 - 3 years past the removal of the white stripes on the Giants' helmet. It appears that helmet also has a modern-style rear bumper - which I don't think appeared until later in the 1980s. That could have been added, but the mask issue still makes me wonder.

The Cowboys lid is interesting from the standpoint that it's an '80s helmet (again, look at the rear snubber) with a 60's-style round-bottom NPO mask.

Same issue with the Packers helmet - an '80s helmet with a 70s mask. By that point the mask should have been green and should be a more modern style.

Any thoughts on these? The discussion of the others is spot-on; the Van Brocklin is the real gem here, and the Eagles HA-9 is another cool find.

[rose14]

Robert, I think any auction house that is selling any form of football helmet should consider using your services. Your research on the VB helmet might get them a few more bids.

Todd

[gwh11]

Robert,
Once again, thanks for your thoughtful analysis.
Guy

[reed1216]

Robert- I always look forward to hearing your thoughts on helmets that are offered for sale. Although I don't collect them, I find it amazing how many of these helmets on the market have issues. Thank you for your thoughtful comments on these!!

[cjw]

Great info...thanks for the insight!

[tom1315]

Robert, thank you for this incredible analysis and summary of findings. The depth of your discussion aids us novice "lid collectors" to be careful and do our homework.

Thanks again! Tom

[buc]

Very nice work, but the Payton is not being offered as a gamer. The wear they are talking about is just that is shows scratches and dings, not game use wear.

[princip]

"a couple of other interesting photos: the photo at the bottom left shows montana leaving the pro bowl game with a seattle seahawks helmet, which he more than likely traded for his helmet."

My guess is it's Dave Krieg's lid from the 1989 Pro Bowl? However, could be Largent's from the 1987 Pro Bowl? I'd have a better guess if I could see the mask.

[princip]

Looking closer, I'd say it's Steve Largent's helmet from the 1987 Pro Bowl, that Montana's holding, because it looks to be a BD-9 facemask.