Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

[Marichal27]

Does anyone think that McAullife would put in a differt tag, say borderless, instead of their normal tag, with borders, during this time frame? Whether it was a jersey you could purchase directly from McAullife or a game used one. You could not tell the difference, as long as you knew the players sizes, as an example. The answer is no. They were not the size company such as Rawlings or Wilson etc. They were a fairly small company in their day. Stall and Dean made the jerseys, and McAullife sold them.

[lon lewis]

Robert, You're half right in your anaylisis. The blue bordered tags were available on the jerseys made for public order. I have asked for some of those to be included in the jerseys to be sent here for my little project. And yes, that does muddy the waters even further. I have some of the aftermarket jerseys here and let me tell you if I didn't know where these came from even I would have a pretty hard time with distinguishing between real and non. Where you are 1/2 wrong is the same place everyone seems to get off the tracks and that is that unlike today, there was NO "retail" operation involved here. Just like their major league counterparts, each jersey was custom made at the time of the order. No blanks, no racks of pre-made jerseys, nothing. You had to specify what you wanted at the time of the order. Then your jersey would be made up for you. Its as simple as that.

For Rob L. In your repeat post on the Dobbins restored Angels jerseys, you note that while the restoration was good, you could still see, when held up to the light the old stitch marks. Since I was the one who did them, I'll let you in an a little secret: That was intentional and on Dick Dobbins orders since some of the first jerseys had the stitch marks removed (by me) and were being sold as all original. This was his way of hopefully putting a stop to this practice. I hope that this clears that up.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Mr. Lewis if you would like me to post the content of the emails you sent me with regards to your statement that I will quote below I will be happy to do so.


"If you were to look at what I said, the words fake, retail, retail tags, borderless tags are retail jerseys, and all of the other crap attributed to me DO NOT appear."

Your correct they don't appear in your post to the board they do however appear in your emails which I would be happy to forward to Dave Grob or Troy and allow them to confirm as much.

Secondly in regards to your turning over the order sheets to MEARS/Mr. Grob, Troy informed that MEARS has made numerous offers to purchase the sheets and you have declined to do so. If you want to help the hobby why not do so buy giving the lead company in the field access to your records?

Your comment again quoted below Mr. Lewis is laughable and borders on slander. I have never once made a personal attack against and have gone out of my way to be professional. To make that comment is just sad.

"How about maybe you get off of your lazy ass and do something on your own instead of criticizing what others come up with. I live 3000 miles from the former McAuliffe location and I came up with my stuff, you supposedly live in the Boston area which is a 30 minute drive from there and you're clueless as to what went on back in the day"

This next quote listed below is priceless Mr. Lewis when you consider that just a few sentences later you contradict yourself.


"It also seems Bosox feels that the McAuliffe records should be as readily available as the H&B records. Here's a news flash: H&B is still in business- McAuliffe for all practical purposes on the other hand, ceased in the '90's. So Bosox, here's an idea.If you want their records, got ahold of Marty and the Doc dust off the Delorean set the flux capacitor for 1985 drive to Brockton Mass and see what you can come up with. It seems by your posts that you're one of those "collectors" who has to have their work done for them all wrapped up in a nice shiny bow."

So on the one hand Mr. Lewis say that the records are not aviable and that we need a time machine to get them and then a few sentences later we get this quote.

"Either get your own info (pro or con on this issue) or stop with the snarky comments to those who have a contrary view to yours. I haven't posted anything that you call "proof" as yet mainly because I have to get the jerseys and invoices sent to me ( I can't just crap this stuff) not because I'm afraid of your challenge or can't get it."

No it seems as though Mr.Lewis has access to invoice's? I thought records did not exist and we needed to get in the Delorean to get them?

Also in this day and age of digital cameras, camera, phones, fax, scanners, skype how long does it take to get the information?

This final quote is the best. As nothing I have said regarding Mr. Lewis is BS as I have his emails and would be happy to provide them to Dave Grob so he can review. If one person who accoarding to Mr. Lewis ordered jerseys for his softball team in 1987 is the basis for the borderless tag theory than excusse me for not putting much faith behind it.

"Finally, did you really think that I could take the position I did without knowing AT LEAST 1 person who did this? And did you really think that I couldn't come up with more jerseys than would be in your worst nightmare? I really don't expect you to buy into what I'll be posting because you'll whine if I put up 10 Lynn jerseys in his size that I should have put up 20 and that the invoices aren't filled out TO YOUR LIKING. But for the others on here it should prove useful. Until the day that all of this is ready I'm done with this thread unless you want to attribute more of your b.s. to me."

Mr. Lewis I look forward to you posting your info and showing the board 10 examples of Fred Lynn shirt's that you feel ar retail jerseys. I hope to see the info sooner rather than later.

[1986&2004Bosox]

I am done trying to reason with the board the fact of the matter is Mr.Lewis him self just stated on the board that Blue bordered jerseys were also sold to the public that means short of a 100 % photo match there is no way to state if any shirt is a gamer or a retail. The whole argument centered around borderless tags now that is not the factor that you can use to tell if a shirt is a gamer or a retail so what is? If a shirt could be custom ordered which still has yet to be proven then anyone could order a Yaz in Yaz's correct size and thus you have now way to tell the difference?

[Marichal27]

Does anyone think that McAullife would put in a differt tag, say borderless, instead of their normal tag, with borders, during this time frame? Whether it was a jersey you could purchase directly from McAullife or a game used one. You could not tell the difference, as long as you knew the players sizes, as an example. The answer is no. They were not the size company such as Rawlings or Wilson etc. They were a fairly small company in their day. Stall and Dean made the jerseys, and McAullife sold them.

....In fact, at least in the early '70's, Wilson would make up a jersey to your specs as well. You can ask Lon Lewis more about that. Wilson had an "outlet" for lack of better words, in San Francisco, and I'm sure in other cities as well.

[Marichal27]

I am done trying to reason with the board the fact of the matter is Mr.Lewis him self just stated on the board that Blue bordered jerseys were also sold to the public that means short of a 100 % photo match there is no way to state if any shirt is a gamer or a retail. The whole argument centered around borderless tags now that is not the factor that you can use to tell if a shirt is a gamer or a retail so what is? If a shirt could be custom ordered which still has yet to be proven then anyone could order a Yaz in Yaz's correct size and thus you have now way to tell the difference?

If I were you, I'd wait for the results you don't expect. Nobody can reason w/you. Lon and I didn't graduate from college just last year. Both of us, especially Lon, knew Dick Dobbins, who is the GOD of jersey Heaven. They spent tons of hours when Dick was selling Giants, Angels, Expos, and who knows what else jerseys. Lon knows his stuff. Believe me.

[suicide_squeeze]

GREAT thread......read every word along the way.

Looking forward to Lon's info....

One thing, however.

Now, when I'm in my kitchen and kind of getting some hunger pangs......when I look at the apples and oranges in my fruit bowl to make up my mind..........I just end up all confused and get an upset stomach.


I don't hink I'll ever be able to eat a piece of fruit again until I hear from Lon.


On a more serious note......I would strongly suggest to any of the new readers to read these heated threads. The obvious usually becomes clear.

Rudy......I have to say, I have had my best laughs reading your posts. You're as electric in your writings as Manny is at the plate in a Dodger uniform......well, at least from 2008. Your common sense is your overwhelmingly best trait, among many others I might add, and there are collectors here who could learn a LOT from you just by following your leads. It is laughable to read some comments about you....like you don't "get it". That's like looking into a clear crystal glass full of red wine, and asking where the green grapes that made the wine came from.

Some people can't hit the ocean jumping out of a boat in deep sea.

I like to think I am pretty well equipped in the common sense arena too, but I appreciate your posts. At worst, you illicit thought that obviously is escaping some of the other members. That's what this is all about....a learning experience for all of us....with the main goal to help educate the group as a whole. That can only enhance everyone's collecting knowledge, and make it a better hobby for all involved.

And hopefully help them make better purchasing decisions.

Thank you Rudy.....sincerely.

Regards,

Steve

[1986&2004Bosox]

Gentlemen the whole theory of the post was that lack of blue border equals retail, now Mr. Lewis state's that is not the case and the public could order blue bordered jerseys as well . If that is the case then there is now way to tell the difference between a retail and a gamer and if there is no way to tell then how can he make the statement he made that lack of a blue border equals a retail?

The fact of the matter is no one can say 100% one way or another.

[lon lewis]

Bosox, You can forward whatever you like to your contacts (I doubt that they even know who or what you are) at MEARS. Did you think that would scare me? Post them here but post them EXACTLY as they were written and don't change anything then everyone will see that YOU were the only one who used those terms. I checked them line by line or didn't you think I'd still have them? Of course if you post them here, people will find out what a total fraud you are in your statements. As far as Troy offering me money for the order sheets that's another of your b.s statements as I have NEVER had even 1 conversation with him on any subject period! So now either you're lying or he is (if he actually made that comment) Which is it? Now do I have to explain what NEVER means or do you actually comprehend what the word means? Regarding the McAuliffe records I was referencing the companies records not what some individual may have. Actually, I didn't think that anyone would have kept their individual invoices from 25+ years ago but apparently some did. If you had actually read my original post you would have noted as others have, that I said that jerseys ordered after the '70's as a general rule would have the borderless tag. Apparently you can't reason out that jerseys before that as a general rule did have the bordered tag. Or is that too difficult to grasp? As far as having to wait for the jerseys and invoices to show up I'm working on other peoples schedules not yours. You seem to think that everyone has to respond to you in the way you want and in the time you want well,too bad since this is my project on my time and money I'll do it my way. If that's not good enough for you, as I said get off of your lazy ass and get your own invoices and jerseys. Oh that's right those things (jerseys) don't exist according to you. Next, to really show how far out there you are, you want to see Fred Lynn jerseys that I FEEL are "retail"? I KNOW THEY'RE "RETAIL" THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE "RETAIL" THAT'S THE POINT OF THE WHOLE EXERCISE! Your last comment that the theory of the post was that the borderless tag equalled retail. The Original start of this thread was on the tag itself not what YOU turned it into with your absolute nonsense.

[soxbats]

Hey Bosox, I don't know you and I don't know Lon. I understand about being passionate and defending your jersey but please, give us all a break and let Lon put together his evidence and present it. Regardless of outcome it will be a huge asset to all jersey and non jersey collectors on the site. The constant picking and demanding simply undermines your arguments. You don't agree with Lon, you have asked Lon for an explanation and he agreed to do it.

The great part about this forum is that people like Lon, Aneas and others are willing to take the time and share their analysis. That doesn't mean that its always perfect, but it is highly educational and at least should be listened to.

My one other thought with all of this is that establishing hard and fast rules that cover each and every situation are difficult to near impossible in this hobby. Even the vaunted H&B records that you have identified are not perfect. Also, particularly in the 70s, people did not pay attention to uniform tagging like they do today so the experiences of people like Lon and others are invaluable.