Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

[Marichal27]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Marichal27 it's funny all I have asked Mr. Lewis for is proof which he has not provided. Have not ragged on him once. Have gone out of my way to be kind towards him.

Let me take your statement listed below point by point.

"Believe me, a freight train is coming, and if I were you, I'd get far away from the tracks. McAullife did use a blue border at that time, whether it was a high school jersey or an mlb JERSEY. dO YOUR HOMEWORK.In Thai, they would say that you are MOONG! Look at the difference in the newness/oldness of the numbers, etc. vs. the McAullife tag in that '77 Lynn jersey. You sound like a Mikequickness."

1. A freight train is coming and if I were you, I'd get far away from the tracks?

Then I guess alot of advance collectors, auction houses and authenticators are all going to get hit by it.Read the the whole I said if proven wrong I would try and locate every borderless jersey people have purchased and try to help them get a refund.

2. McAullife did use a blue border at that time, whether it was a high school jersey or an mlb JERSEY.

According to Mr. Lewis that is not the case that the way to tell a MLB jersey apart from a High School is the lack of the blue border, just so we are both on the same page.

3. Do my homework?

I have and my home work has located numerous borderless examples from starts to commons that is why the debate rages on. Case in point borderless A's Walls COACHES Jersey, who is going to forge a coach?

4. Look at the difference in the newness/oldness of the numbers, etc?

Borderless or bordered the jerseys are both 1977 so the numbers are the same age so I dont understand your premis.

Futhermore if these shirts were made for beer leagues, softball teams, high schools etc dont you think they would exhibit tremendous use? As unlike a pro jersey that was worn for 1 season most high schools or beer league teams did not get new shirt each season and as such wouldnt you expect these shirts to be in worse conditon then a MLB jersey that was properly cared for?

5. Mikequickness?

Sorry I dont understand the reference

Finally if you were bidding on a Bonds jersey and the price point reached
$ 10,000.00 can you please provide the auction link and what ultimately happend in that situation?

Bosox...I'm saying look at the crispness of your McAullife tag. Compare it to the rest of the jersey. looks like more wear and washings on the jersey than it does on the tagging. On the photos, the tag seems too new compared to the rest of the jersey. As far as that "Bonds', it was from an AMI auction about 4 years ago. Supposedly a 2001 road w/flag; Lon spotted this as a fake and did some talking to them (AMI) and I received my $$ back.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

I have a 77 Rice road with blue border tag letters and numbers are pounded tags are crisp so that theory don't hold up. There are game worn jerseys from the 50ties with crisp tags.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

For all that are interested MEARS article is online

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

1) its my personal opinion that in attempting to determine tagging issues, jerseys of stars and superstars shouldn't be used as examples. the reasons are obvious. you're far better off, for the purpose of accurate results, to use jerseys from common players. there are a myriad of reasons, some legit and some not legit, why the jerseys of superstars are sometimes different from the jerseys of common players. if you were trying, for example, to determine the proper tagging for 1990 rawlings jerseys would you seriously include ripkens, bonds, and mcgwires? why when you could instead use leonards, breams, and gallegos and eliminate a whole slew of issues that might easily distort the results?

2) for a long time it's appeared to me that mears would slap an A10 on something if it had an athlete's "game used" notation. of course, mears never made any sort of qualitative distinction between players like arod who slapped "game used" on anything and more discerning and honest players. namath slapped a "game used" on that SB3 helmet and we all saw how worthwhile that notation was. same deal with arod and bonds. from some players, a "game used" notation means nothing.

3) i'd like to see dave's results with HOF'er jerseys removed. out of all of the jerseys mentioned in dave's report, the ONLY one without blue lines that's a common jersey is lee walls. haney, mccatty, drago, aviles, kearny, drumright all had blue lines. the ones without blue lines? yaz, rice, jackson, fingers, ryan, fisk.

for the purpose of finding out the most accurate, plausible answers, i think it behooves everyone to leave out the superstar jerseys.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

rudy that is crazzy, to eliminate a segment of the jerseys because it was a star player? Who's to say that stars did not get different tagging from commons? There are examples of miss tagged years in all sports, missing patches on jerseys. Stars who wore shirt's that were 2 plus years old, recycled jerseys. A jersey should be evaluated on it's own merrits not someone conteniton about tag borders or eliminate the superstatrs. So in your theory how would you evaluate a jersey of a superstar. What would be your base point?

[suicide_squeeze]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

rudy that is crazzy, to eliminate a segment of the jerseys because it was a star player? Who's to say that stars did not get different tagging from commons?

So in your theory how would you evaluate a jersey of a superstar. What would be your base point?

I can tell you how I WOULDN'T base who is a superstar and who isn't......

I wouldn't allow a jersey manufacturer make the decision for the baseball world by determining which player gets the blue lines, and which don't.....like you have just suggested as a possibility.

Again, the "defense attorney" arguments just keep coming. Do anything to create "reasonable doubt".

It DOES, however, make sense that there would be a LOT of the "superstar" players jerseys floating aroung because they were being reproduced by the manufacturer for sale to the public from retail stores.

Why? Because the superstars are popular, and they would sell.

Rudy's "theory" holds water.

And that's just my opinion.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

So then the shirt direct from Yaz to his agent is a fake lack of blue border? the blue bordered lynn that according to ruddy is wrong sizw again direct from yaz to his agent is a fake becaue lynn wore a 44 and it is a 42.

Jerseys aviable for public sale at retails stores? No one ever remembers this as something that was done.

Mr. Lewis has refused to provide MEARS with the order sheets he claims to have. Why? If he has info that is helpful to the hobby why not give it to the largest evaluator in the hobby to help them make the right call?

If borderless tags became the norm in 1980 then why are their 81 blue borders?

[aeneas01]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

i say pound the books - or the net. must be some conclusive photo evidence lurking out there somewhere. no smoking guns here but you get the idea...















for that guu kc fan....



....

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

rudy that is crazzy, to eliminate a segment of the jerseys because it was a star player? Who's to say that stars did not get different tagging from commons? There are examples of miss tagged years in all sports, missing patches on jerseys. Stars who wore shirt's that were 2 plus years old, recycled jerseys. A jersey should be evaluated on it's own merrits not someone conteniton about tag borders or eliminate the superstatrs. So in your theory how would you evaluate a jersey of a superstar. What would be your base point?

you're only eliminating the segment for the sole purpose of determining what the tagging should be. what's so crazy about that? whatever conclusion lon and mears and others come to, you want to be able to accept and have faith in the results right? you don't want this turning into some florida voting debacle. well the fact is if you base your results heavily on HOF jerseys, there'll be people who'll rightfully question the accuracy of the findings so why not pre-emptively dispel such things by using only common players?

lots of superstar jerseys do have the same tagging as common players. and many don't. how and why would you set up the arduous process of sifting through all of that if you don't have to? what possible benefit does throwing HOF jerseys into the mix add? it's a lot of risk for no benefit at all.

it's a long held theory by many in this hobby that if you want to find out how a jersey "should be", you look at a common player. ie: a player who has little to no risk of being faked. a player who didn't order a ton of jerseys for the sole sake of charities, give aways, replacing stolen shirts, etc. you want a textbook example and many times superstar HOFers aren't textbook examples. some are and some aren't. you'd need to sift out each one and why would you add more work to this whole process? if i wanted to know the proper, textbook tagging for the 1990 A's, i'd look at gallego, blankenship, lansford, javier, honeycutt. what possible benefit, for the sole purpose of trying to ascertain tagging, would throwing mcgwire and canseco into the mix add? so i can then spend hours more on top of it all trying to determine if i even have legit mcgwires and cansecos to start with? the odds of a blankenship being faked are almost nil. the odds of a mcgwire being faked are extremely high. but you want to throw it into the mix anyway..why? just to make things even harder? just to reduce the odds of coming to an accurate conclusion? or just because you enjoy doing more than is necessary?

So in your theory how would you evaluate a jersey of a superstar. What would be your base point?

this isn't about evaluating superstar jerseys is it? this is about determining whether mcauliffe sold retail shirts and whether those shirts had different tagging than pro shirts.

to answer your question anyway, i'd evaluate the jersey of a superstar once i already had an accurate baseline for the tagging, which at this point doesn't seem that we do in regards to mcauliffe. if i was evaluating a mcgwire then i'd only do so after knowing how the blankenship, honeycutt, and gallego were tagged. the baseline, as held by many in this hobby,
should the common player shirt, not the superstar for obvious reasons.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

king i will respectfully disagree as we have seen no rhyme or reason to the tagging and MEARS excuse Dave M of Mears admits as much in the post on the website today. In which he states that retail's (if they do exist) in his opinion can have both blue bordered tags or non blue bordered tags. The only constant is that there is no constant in regards to McAuliffe tagging.

Your argument is flawed you have to evaluate each jersey Superstar or common on the same factors so a Walt Wise or a Jose Canseco A's should both be held to the same standard.

Just as a McAuliffe Yaz or a McAuliffe Reggie Cleveland should both be evaluated under the same standard.

Your position that it would take to much time is laughable that's what research is.

Also the long held theory of :


"look at a common player to see how a jersey should be tagged" does not hold water.

Case in point common player David Pauley, Devern Hanseck, Mike Stanton Red Sox jerseys all lacked the strip tag that 2005-current Red Sox jerseys have yet all were road shirts and all were late season call ups or trades, all were purchased from the team and all have the 0062 was tag.

Since they are commons that lack the strip tag should all 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 Red Sox Jerseys lack the strip tag? If that were the case then all stripped tagged shirts would be fakes correct?

There is no certainity in the hobby in regards to tagging. Font, color, material yes but tagging no.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

"So then the shirt direct from Yaz to his agent is a fake lack of blue border? the blue bordered lynn that according to ruddy is wrong sizw again direct from yaz to his agent is a fake becaue lynn wore a 44 and it is a 42."

i have no clue about those shirts but what shirt that was "given to his agent" are you talking about? miedema said the shirt was "gifted by Yaz to close friend and longtime show promoter Dick Gordon". are you referring to some other shirt? anyway, like i said, i don't know about those shirts but it wouldn't shock me if a player gave a show promoter a retail shirt. yaz probably had a lot of people asking for his shirts just like stars always do. did everyone who asked yaz for a shirt get one of his gamers? or did yaz keep a bunch of retail shirts on hand to give out when people asked? either way why even have this discussion when instead you could just use common player jerseys whom practically noone asked for their shirts?

"Jerseys aviable for public sale at retails stores? No one ever remembers this as something that was done."

in his 3.0 guide, bill henderson writes about how in the 70s, fans could get "team spec" jerseys from the teams local lettering shop. bill writes "I recall seeing the availability of authentic, new Wilson Phillies jerseys offered through Phillies' sponsor Gold Medal Sporting Goods stores for the first time in about 1977. Delivered plain, with no player number or name affixed, one could be special ordered for $70..Lettering was $20 extra and took an additional month or more.."

"Mr. Lewis has refused to provide MEARS with the order sheets he claims to have. Why? If he has info that is helpful to the hobby why not give it to the largest evaluator in the hobby to help them make the right call?"

MEARS isn't the largest evaulator in the hobby. they have 1 auction house contract. lou lampson has at least 5. secondly, MEARS is a profit-making endeavor that charges the collecting community for access to it's information. the better question then would be why would lon hand over, for free, the order sheets to a firm that's then going to turn around and profit from them? incidentally, lon has shared the info with private collectors.

i once asked MEARS simply if they had worked on a certain jersey. i didn't ask for the evaluation or any other info. i simply wanted to know if they had examined a certain shirt. the answer i received? don't ask for that type of info. given their response, there isn't a single shred of information i'd be willing to share with MEARS. if i want to help the hobby, i can share it for free on GUF with other collectors who've gladly helped me for free. sharing info with MEARS isn't helping the hobby as much as it's helping MEARS turn a buck. count me out.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

"Your argument is flawed you have to evaluate each jersey Superstar or common on the same factors so a Walt Wise or a Jose Canseco A's should both be held to the same standard."

and how do you accurately figure out what those standards should be?

"Just as a McAuliffe Yaz or a McAuliffe Reggie Cleveland should both be evaluated under the same standard."

i never once implied that superstar jerseys should be evaluated under a different set of standards. rather, i simply spoke of how to determine accurate baselines. that's all. can you see the difference?

"Case in point common player David Pauley, Devern Hanseck, Mike Stanton Red Sox jerseys all lacked the strip tag that 2005-current Red Sox jerseys have yet all were road shirts and all were late season call ups or trades, all were purchased from the team and all have the 0062 was tag.
Since they are commons that lack the strip tag should all 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 Red Sox Jerseys lack the strip tag? If that were the case then all stripped tagged shirts would be fakes correct?"

there is absolutely no way you've got anywhere near 20 yrs in this hobby. jesus H. in the example you gave, anyone with at least half an ounce of common sense, in trying to evaluate proper tagging for '05 red sox NON-SPARE shirts would obviously not base anything on 3 late-season call-ups. are you for real? if you wanted to figure out how the sox tagged their NON-SPARE shirts why on earth would you use SPARE shirts? you wouldn't. you'd only look at common players who'd been on the roster since spring training. i can see now why lon has given up on you and at this point, i'm going to follow his lead.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Also the long held theory of :

"look at a common player to see how a jersey should be tagged" does not hold water.

Case in point common player David Pauley, Devern Hanseck, Mike Stanton Red Sox jerseys all lacked the strip tag that 2005-current Red Sox jerseys have yet all were road shirts and all were late season call ups or trades, all were purchased from the team and all have the 0062 was tag.

Since they are commons that lack the strip tag should all 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 Red Sox Jerseys lack the strip tag? If that were the case then all stripped tagged shirts would be fakes correct?

when most people in this hobby would attempt to ascertain the tagging for a full-roster player they wouldn't be stupid enough to use callups/trades.

to ascertain the tagging on a full-roster player, they'd look at the tagging of COMMON full-roster players. to ascertain the tagging on callups/trades, they'd look at the tagging on COMMON callups/trades. apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

now i concur that when i used the term "common player" i didn't qualify it by saying that a further distinction should be made between full-roster players and callups/trades because i'd made the assumption that most already knew this basic piece of info and weren't completely braindead. your "case in point" rebuttal to this long-held theory assumes that people are blithering idiots who are clueless to the fact that you don't compare spare jerseys with non-spares.

rudy.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

King for new collectors uneducated board members etc, I am giving an example of how no theory is 100 % correct. In regards to a common players jersey you need to let people know that even then there is tagging that is not consistent, as some late season call ups and trades are tagged in the same way as players who have been with the team the whole season and others are not tagged the same way.

In regards with how to set a standard if you cant set a standard then you should not evaluate a jersey.

It should not matter weather or not you are using a star or a common to determine if a shirt is legitimate and tagged properly that's the error in your argument. A universal standard need's to be established to evaluate and then there are factors that go into evaluating each shirt on it's own merits.

The Red Sox factor was brought up to show that even in today's collecting marketplace not all shirts are tagged the same way.

You and Mr.Lewis seems to want to say that things are this way or that way when even Mr. Medina of MEARS has admitted that no conclusion can be drawn at this point in regards to the McAuliffe tags, and MR. Grob feels that futher information is need as there are examples of blue bordered shirts that Mr. Medina feels are retails.

It is laughable that Mr. Lewis will not provide the order records he states he has to MEARS to try and provide the collecting community with more research material. If Mr.Lewis has the records and is concerned with cleaning up the hobby why not provide what he has to allow the authenticators and auctions hopuses to have the information they need to represent a piece in the correct way?

Fact of the matter is borderless tag McAuliffe are a tag varation nothing more as evident by numerous examples within the hobby that range from coaches to superstars.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

king it seems as thought there are blithering idiots in this hobby everywhere. When you make a statement you can't make a blanket statement you have to break it down and allow for the possibility of items that don't match up 100% to what the baseline is but are still actually game used or worn.