Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

King if that is the case then no McAuliffe jersey from this time frame should get a grade of higher than A5 from mears with direct player or team letter, as there seems to be no way to tell the difference.

The argument centered around the fact that post 1975 jerseys had the blue bordered tag, and the lack of a blue border meant "aftermarket". Now if that is not the case then what does the lack of a blue border mean in a 1977 shirt?

It means it is a tag varation which has been my argument the whole time, that there is no way to tell the difference, that there is no proof that shirts could be ordered and now even if there is proof that the shirts could be ordered there is no way to tell them apart as they are tagged the same way.

If that is the case that the public could order these shirts then wouldn't we see 100 of these jerseys in a vast amount of sizes and of numerous players in both home and road versions?

Mr. Lewis states on this board that if he did not know the source of the shirts that he considers to be retail, after market, custom whatever you want to call them he would have a hard time telling the difference. So what about the shirts he does not know the source of what factors will he use to figure those out, if they are tagged the same way as a gamer?

[lund6771]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Bosox...you may have the greatest intentions in the world...but if you are seeking answers, why display every single second of your thoughts in a public forum?

there are 130 something posts on this thread that could be refined to 3 or 4...

It sounds like you are on more of a soap box than seeking information....

I've only e-mailed with Lon a few times, but there is no doubt in my mind that he is a hobby expert in many niches...why not speak with him through e-mail instead of taking a few words and running with it and going crazy here?

there is a lot of valuable info that many people could LEARN from through Lon's experience and his access to info

why not kick back and see what he comes up with instead of turning this into a pissing match?...

Like many have posted to you; cruise around the internet, books, etc...find info and get answers to the info that you seek...

I wouldn't be surpised that if you spent half the time doing research, instead of creating controversy here, that you would have half of yur questions answered by now

[ironmanfan]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

would you care to elaborate on your "opinion"?

Not so much opinion rather than fact (obvious), let me know if you'd rather have me post on here for ALL to learn or if you like to be schooled privately (your choice)...

Bill
whhp72@yahoo.com

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Thats great lund6771 thanks for the advice. If anyone knew what collections have come to the market as a result of my efforts and research you might think differently.

Now I know why Dave Bushing left working as an authenticator.

I chose to go to this forum to point out the fact that just because someone is respected does not mean they are correct.

Mr. Lewis has made enough statements that contradict each other and if this was just emails between me and him those would not be brought to light.

Mr. Lewis should be held accountable for his position, should be able to clarify his statements, should be able to answer a question. That's all I have asked of Mr Lewis clarify his position and prove it. Don't say one thing in one breath and a different thing in another.

It is very easy the only thing I have asked Mr.Lewis to answer is the following.

Mr. Lewis what is a post 1975 McAuliffe borderless neck taged jersey in your opinion?

A. An after market, retail, custom whatever term you want to use

B. A gamer

C. Could it be both?

[lund6771]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

If that is the case that the public could order these shirts then wouldn't we see 100 of these jerseys in a vast amount of sizes and of numerous players in both home and road versions?

As far as this comment goes, I can guarantee to you that they are buried in collections

I was at the National in the early 90's and must have seen 20 1989 Michael Jordan sand-knit jerseys with team letters...and that was in one room

where are they all now?....dried up in collections

[Vintagedeputy]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

This thread has ceased to be useful.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

you are entitled to your position vintage and I respect it. the intent of this board is to provide knowledge, help people locate items and provide fact. I hope this topic proves to be of some benefit in the long run.

[flaco1801]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Knowledge has been provided, some just have to argue about it.... if mr. lewis says that mcaullife shirt have been ordered by individuals as custom shirts, ya know what, i believe him without "proof". i would believe his word over any loa.. thats what ya get from being in this hobby,and being respected....RESPECT

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Yeah Flaco1801 let's just take people at face value with no proof. That worked well for all the Madoff investors who trusted the former Wall street wiz kid. HE had a great rep, well respected and on paper made people millions. Just because someone has a great rep does not mean you follow that person, especially when they have made conflicting statements and have provided no proof to back their positoion. I am done posting, done responding. Done with this issue.

If Mr.Lewis wants me to post his first email in which his proof is a 1971 Indians jersey in Henderson's that he says was made in 1987, and the fact that he knows a guy who ordered softball shirts from stall and dean I will be happy to.
That's Lon's proof. I have forwarded that email to MEARS. My Intent was never to question Mr. Lewis hobby standing just ask for proof of which none has been supplied.

[soxbats]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

If that is the case that the public could order these shirts then wouldn't we see 100 of these jerseys in a vast amount of sizes and of numerous players in both home and road versions?

I find this statement troubling on many levels. If you are going to persist in the constant flow of comments for all of us to digest let's try to apply some minimum common sense and do your own research.

I have the following questions/observations in response to your statement:

In 1975 how many people were interested in buying high end replica jerseys of star players? What was the cost? Given that there was no real game used collecting market, how many of these retail jerseys (presumably purchased by fans to wear to games) would have survived in a state possible for resale? How were the jerseys advertised to the public and were they even advertized or simply done by word of mouth? What were the production capabilities of the company at the time, could they have mass produced that many jerseys?

You are pounding people for allegedly throwing out baseless theories and then you offer up these types of gems. What you need is more information, not more words.

Your comment suggests that the retail avaialabilty theory cannot be true becuase, if it was, someone would have purchased hundreds of star jerseys and preserved them in 1975 knowing that some day, but certainly not that day or decade, they would make a killing on them. On the other hand, and I have no evidence of this but await Lon's analysis, is it plausible that people could order replica jerseys but that fact was neither widely known or widely desired which might explain why there are many but not hundreds of [insert star player name here] jerseys?

[flaco1801]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

heres my take.... when you find a 70's era jersey, if it aint used, abused and just plain worn i would suspect... even the ball players themselves didnt think to keep their shirts although some may have purchased them from the club.. i remember ron taylor of the mets telling me he cant give balls away, they get charged... the 75 red sox jerseys were so abused the roads looked a pale white, i suspect from being in so many spring training games in florida...

[lon lewis]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

This just gets better and better, If you insist on misleading everyone on what was said email or otherwise go ahead. Your latest is another example of it. The email in question which actually reads " The only tangible evidence ( other than finding someone who did order a jersey and having them admit it or show it) of being able to order jerseys with tagging comes from the Henderson guide which I've attached. It shows what he calls a "prototype" Cleveland Indians 1971 knit jersey. In fact it's a jersey ordered in 1987 and used by a member of a softball team in the Cleveland area. By coincidence I happen to know the individual who ordered the jerseys from Stahl and Dean for that team. My only reason to post originally was to answer the inquiry about the blue/borderless mfr tag.Like everything else posted on the forum, you're free to accept the information or dis-regard it that's your choice" This part of the email was in response to your email demand for "proof" the very day that I posted about tagging.Since I couldn't make the jerseys or any thing else you were demanding appear at that instant I used the best example I had available. To which at the end of your reply you say "Finally what does an individual who ordered a shirt from Stahl and Dean have to do with McAuliffe?" Brillliant response. And you really want me to tell you how to differentiate between these aftermarket jerseys and the real ones? You can't even grasp a 3 line post or quote me correctly. And I'm supposed to walk you through the complexities involved with this? I took the time to review all of your previous posts and as I suspected, you're a relative newbie to this (collecting) who wants someone else to do everything for you laid out in a nice neat package. But there was one thing in there that was really informative: "Like I said unless you can photomatch an item, just because a jersey is tagged the right way don't mean a damn thing. Even Mears all you are paying for is their opinion and what is that? It is them looking at photos and matching stuff up, we have all bought in to the theory that a Mears LOA or a Steiner Hologram is gold when the truth is all Steiner is is a sticker and all mears is a bunch of guys doing the same thing we could do with books and photos if we put in the same time and effort." recognize that ? that's you 01-18-2009 10:57 pm. My favorite part is the "just because a jersey is tagged the right way don't mean a damn thing." Gee, how times have changed in the past few weeks. There it is, your post warts and all unlike your cherry picking of my posts and emails. Face it, you're on the Titanic trying to bail with a coffee can.

[lon lewis]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

This is for sox bats You have a pretty firm grip on the situation as it was back then. Not to many people took advantage of the situation in those days which is probably a good thing. Those who did, the majority of them still have those jerseys in their collections. On top of that, I think that if you had tried to order too many jerseys especially of the same star players at once Mr. Stall would have declined to accept the order. I do know that the ability to order the jerseys was discontinued except for a few selected individuals in the mid-late 80's after Mr Stall took note of a few of these jerseys entering the market and being sold as game worn.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

yeah lon I am a newbie with 25 years of collecting who is college educated, who has brokered 6 figure deals between private collectors and prominent dealers, I havebrought to market some amazing private collections and items who has chosen to stay away from these stupid debates because individuals like you can't comprehend what you write and then try to say I miss represented you. You just posted the email that proves that you have no evidence that you are referencing a jersey that is tagged 1971 and state that it is from 1987.

I reference you exactly and you say I twist your word you just posted the email and your only proof is the henderson guide for an individual with 30 plus years who has restored 18,000 jerseys I would think you would have to have an extensive photo archive to be able to do appropiate research in order to do the restoration. With that info in hand what would take a month to gather?

Lon you are amazing regarding the 01-18-2009 post was an entierly different topic but thats fine, it was in reference to MEARS, Steiner, etc and the value we put behind their LOA's. I am done good luck Mr. Lewis and happy collecting.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Lon if you actually represent the thread the right way from January it was in reference to someone getting mad at a person for having clubhouse sources. I said that was laughable and that the only way to be 100 percent certain on an item is a photo match or getting it directly from the player.

But it's ok twist what I said, the tagging issue went back to how steiner said game worn and mlb said game issued and that the tagging on a shirt meant two different things to two different companies and that in this hobby there is no way to tell 100 % on an item unless you get a photo match or got it from the player but you need to trust your source. It also states that MEARS was just an opinion and steiner was just a sticker and we could do our own research.

It's not worth rehashing read that post if you care to but read the whole post and you will see it is not what Mr.lewis represents it to be.