Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

[lon lewis]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

The only amazing one here is you. Again the part you reference as having no proof is actually the entire reply or quote which as usual, you cut up for your own purposes. I didn't attach the page that I sent you because I figured it wasn't necessary but if you insist, here you go. If you're a college graduate, I'd look into a refund especially for the reading comprehension course. If I read your ridiculous comment about the restoration part correctly, you want me to have photographed all of the jerseys that I've done over the past 25 years and some how use that to illlustrate aftermarket jerseys that I didn't restore or haven't had pass through here? Are you kidding me? Also if you actually knew any thing about the restoration process you can't just go by a photo you need precise patterns , templates drawings, ect for each team. So why would I need to photo anything if I already have the pattterns templates and drawings? If you don't like my time frame for doing things, as I said why don't you do something about it yourself nobodys stopping you. Oh yeah, you can't function on your own in this environment with out someone else leading you by the hand every step of the way. As to the post that I quoted of yours, that is the entire post you made at the time word for word in that particular thread. It is indicative of your opinion just a few short weeks ago but it seems that your opinions change when you have a stake in the jersey. How strange. Good night and keep bailing.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Mr. Lewis my reading comprehension is fine. Your writing skills are lacking.

Your post is below. Your quote regarding the Henderson guide which you have also posted to the board in reference to the ordering of shirts by the public is what I am talking about.

You reference a 1971 jersey listed in Henderson and say that it was ordered in 1987 for a softball team? That's your proof of jerseys being sold to the public? A shirt with tags that are 16 years old ordered for a softball team 16 years later? You are joking correct? You don't read what you write then say I take what you wrote out of context. What am I missing what did I miss read or not understand? You exact words are as follow.

" The only tangible evidence ( other than finding someone who did order a jersey and having them admit it or show it) of being able to order jerseys with tagging comes from the Henderson guide which I've attached. It shows what he calls a "prototype" Cleveland Indians 1971 knit jersey. In fact it's a jersey ordered in 1987 and used by a member of a softball team in the Cleveland area. By coincidence I happen to know the individual who ordered the jerseys from Stahl and Dean for that team."

Finally go back and read the whole post Mr.Lewis from 1-18-2009. It is all there and the topic in question is clubhouse sources and trusting the tagging, holograms and opinions of authenticators and stating what they do is no better than what a collector could do.

The statement was that just because a shirt is tagged correctly that does not mean a damn thing, that was in reference to the fact that with out a photo match or direct provenance no jersey can be concluded to be a 100% game worn, but you also need to trust your source but again lon don't reference the thread and topic just pull it apart.

I have not done that once to you. I have referenced your exact words gone back thru ALL your post and pointed out your statements that contradict your previous statements.

I have not bailed once all i have ever asked you for is proof and still nothing. Don't you think there would be another board member who ordered a shirt directly if you could have done it? Also if it was profitable for McAuliffe why not make the fact that you could do this public? I don't know any business that is in business to not make as much money as they can.



Finally yes I do find it almost impossible for you to restore 18,000 jerseys in 25 years that averages 1.97 shirts each and every day 365 days a year for those 25 years. You state you need templates I agree completely and as such you need an example of the shirt to reference and create the patterns, templates, drawings.

As such wouldn't you have that reference material stored somewhere? Wouldn't you take notes about tagging, lettering, font size, material? Also most restorers take before and after photos of their work it could be a car, home, painting thats common place kind of a brag book so perspective clients can see your previous work.

I have functioned on my own for many years Mr.Lewis and uncovered everything from a Babe Ruth game used bat, to a Ted Williams complete uniform, to vintage 50ties HOF football jerseys, to WS rings, and a collection of vintage teens and 20ties programs, cards and tickets. All these items were located by do hours of research, hunting down leads and numerous hours spent on the phone and the road. I am no stranger to hard work I want nothing handed to me.

What I don't like is you throwing out statements that you have no proof to back.

It seems as if your pissed because I have questioned your statements and have asked you to clarify your current position and you have still yet to do that so I will ask one final time.

What does the lack of a blue border in the neck tag of a post 1975 McAuliffe jersey mean to you?

Is it

A. a aftermarket jersey
B. a game used jersey
C. could it be both


Simple question that you have not answered

I will pose the same question regarding a jersey that has a blue border in the neck tag. What does that mean to you?
Is it

A. a aftermarket jersey
B. a game used jersey
C. could it be both

I pose this question as you state that the blue border was in full swing by 1975. Thus I will not get into the transition year of 74 or any jerseys before that as they should be borderless based upon Mr. Lewis statements.

Just respond to those questions and your reason why you feel that way and then take as long as you want to provide your evidence to prove your point. I don't think that is asking to much.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Another Lon lewis gem regarding size of shirt as the way to tell the difference, but wait he states that a 42 could have been ordered but not on the order sheet. Give it up Lon you dont know how to tell the difference any better than anyone else.

" That was a typo on my part it should have read 1975-78. In 1975, the regular position players and some of the pitchers had 3 home and road uniforms ordered initially there was also an extra set ordered for the series. There also were 5 players who initially requested the patch worn in '75 to be on the right sleeve instead of the left. Have I seen Lynn jerseys without the border? sure just like Fisk, Yaz, Rice amazing coincidence huh? As far as the 42 is concerned, there are a couple of explanations. The first would be that a 42 was made up for him for whatever reason in addition to the regular order-no big deal as you could just use a blank extra and there you go. It wouldn't show up on the order sheet because it was a blank. Another scenario would be that this is a number changed jersey that Lynn signed "my gamer". Players rarely know which jerseys are really theirs. A third possibility is that that jersey is a minor league jersey with the number 19 on it and since McAuliffe/ Stahl and Dean routinely tagged the minor league jerseys with the same tagging. A number of these have popped up in the past few years and the only way to differentiate them is by size. Take your pick. Photo shoots, As a general rule during this time period the players would wear their actual jerseys for photo shoots and sometimes like for head shots,ect the team photog would just use a blank and have the players switch before each shot. With Lynn and the regular players having 3 sets most of the time it's hard to imagine the Sox ordering even more just for publicity purposes. Former employee claims: There is a chance that a front office type would have picked up some jerseys off of the E.M. but on the other hand, how hard do you think it would be for a front office type to order his own jerseys? Given the proximity of Stahl and Dean to Fenway, all that would have to happen is a phone call and a drive to pick it up where you could either pay a whopping $ 45.00 each or bill it to the club. I seem to remember that there were a number of Sox jerseys sold at auction in the last year or so and all purportedly came from a former Sox front office type. Since I no longer collect I'm glad that I don't have to sort through these issues of course back in the day, my main focus was the Giants. Bottom line: If it doesn't have the blue border after 1974 I would be skeptical but you would still have to consider the overall condition of the jersey if it shows repeated use/launderings that could indicate that the tagging is just an anomaly however, if the tags are crisp and new such as the neck tags on the Lynn and all of the tags on the Yaz that was pointed out, well I'd just pass."
Lon

[both-teams-played-hard]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Did you ask Lon a question about the Sox jerseys and this was his response? Seems like he outlined many possible scenarios. You asked a question, and he gave an answer. Did Lon try to sell you a jersey? If not, why is it his duty to authenticate your jersey? It appears he was friendly enough to give you a detailed reply.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Both Teams my problem is Lon's initial statement in this thread. If the email I just posted was his 1st post to the board I doubt this thread would have taken on the life it has.

If Mr. Lewis had posted this response with the numerous different scenarios he brings up instead of the post in which he states blue border tags were in full production by 1975, then I think we as a board all would have had very different info and as such would have been able to draw our own conclusions.

That conclusion in my case would have been based on the numerous factors Mr. Lewis mentioned he has no way to tell the shirts apart and that without proof of order sheets for these custom orders the issue is a tag varation, and until proven other wise can not considered to be anything more than that.

This whole thread got out of control based upon Mr. Lewis and original post regarding the fact that anyone could order jerseys direct from McAuliffe, and his stance that borderless were the norm in the 80ties and that all jerseys 1975 on pre 1980 should have should have a blue border.

The 77 Lynn jersey in question does not have the blue border so I have repeatedly ask Lon to address that topic and he has not. To make a statement that all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border to me means he has called in to question the Lynn shirt being a gamer.

He can state that he is not but what would you take it to mean if someone say all 1975 and pre 1980 jerseys should have a blue bordered tag? What conclusion would you draw from that statement?

Finally with players getting 3 jerseys home and 3 road per Mr. Lewis whats to say the player actually wore all 3? As his statement is regarding wear on a shirt, what if the player only wore 1 for the whole season and the other two shirts hung as spares in the locker?

Players have their favorite glove, bat, hat even in this day and age when players go thru equipment like water Trot Nixon and John Wettland both wore the same hat all season and had the WS patch put on that hat Wettland 1996 and Trot 2004 . Varitek, and Youk wore pants that were completely hammered and patched and stitched and those examples are 2005 and 2008.

Bottom line with McAuliffe shirts there is no way to tell the difference between a gamer and a custom, retail, aftermarket ( if customs did indeed exist), and Mr. lewis himself has stated as much when he stated if he did not know the source of the shirts he considers to be retails, custom, after market he would have a hard time telling them apart. Whats the source what are the jerseys in question?

It just seems to me as Mr. Lewis should not make a blanket statement pertaining to Mcauliffe tagging without evidence and proof to back it up. You cant say all 1975 to pre 80 McAuliffes should have the blue border neck tag and not expect someone to question where you come up with that position when there have been numerous examples of 1975-pre 80ties without the blue border.

Futhermore he then states that even custom orders had the blue bordered tag in the neck 1975-pre 80, so what conclusion would you draw based on that statement if you are looking at a 1977 jersey that has a borderless neck tag?

Take a stand Mr. Lewis tell us your position and then take the month to gather your evidence thats all I want. The questions were posted eariler respond to them and I will not post again till you post your findings next month.

[Rob L]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

[quote=1986&2004Bosox;130013]Bottom line with McAuliffe shirts there is no way to tell the difference between a gamer and a custom, retail, aftermarket ( if customs did indeed exist), and Mr. lewis himself has stated as much when he stated if he did not know the source of the shirts he considers to be retails, custom, after market he would have a hard time telling them apart. Whats the source what are the jerseys in question?

[quote]

Based on that statement, did you sell this as a gamer or as a custom, retail or aftermarket shirt? As the seller, you must provide the burden of proof to the buyer.

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

"Both Teams my problem is Lon's initial statement in this thread."

let's look at lon's original statement that caused you to implode.

"Beantown, The blue border tags actually made their first appearance in 1974, and were in full production in 1975. Without getting into the legitimacy of the jersey shown, it should be noted that during the '70's and 80's anyone could obtain from McAuliffe/Stahl and Dean completely tagged jerseys of any of the teams that were produced by that company and after the '70's, those jerseys would as a general rule contain the borderless mfr tag."

the specific line in that which caused you to go rabid was this: "..were in full production in 1975"

what exactly did lon mean that by "full production"? did he mean, as you clearly inferred, that "all jerseys 1975 on pre 1980 should have should have a blue border."? is that really what he meant? or is that what you inferred?

"To make a statement that all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border"

show me exactly where lon stated "all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border". don't show me the line where lon said blue borders were "in full production in 1975" because those two ideas are not identical. by lon stating they were in full production, your brain went into overdrive and thought "full production?! by golly lon must necessarily mean that mcauliffe used only blue borders in 1975+ and didn't use any borderless tags!".

"what would you take it to mean if someone say all 1975 and pre 1980 jerseys should have a blue bordered tag? What conclusion would you draw from that statement?"

lon never said all 1975 and pre 1980 jerseys should have a blue bordered tag. he said by 1975, blue bordered tags were "in full production". can you comprehend the difference?

your problem(s) go way beyond lon's original post. lon told me that when you two first emailed, he spent 8 hours answering your questions and that you pretty much ignored most everything he said. having interacted with you on different topics, i find that very easy to believe. you refused to believe that mcauliffe shirts were sold to the public so in response, lon says he'll get the evidence and that it'd take roughly 30 days. a sane, polite person would say "thanks lon. appreciate it. i'll wait till then". what did you say? that it wasn't good enough. too slow lon! i want it now! i shouldn't have to wait 30 days! use google and skype! despite lon saying at the very beginning it would take 30 days, this board has had to hear you squawk like sort of amnesiac parrot "there's no proof! still no proof!" every single @*&! day.

then you talk about "gems". the reply from lon that you posted seems thorough and honest. he doesn't paint some "borders=good, no borders=bad" scenario like you keep insisting he's done all this time. he points out several different scenarios, and simply concludes that "If it doesn't have the blue border after 1974 I would be skeptical but you would still have to consider the overall condition of the jersey if it shows repeated use/launderings that could indicate that the tagging is just an anomaly". he never said it was automatically bad. he simply said he'd be skeptical and "that the tagging is just an anomaly". you want real gems? these are my favorites:

"..wouldn't major auction houses know this and not make the same mistake for years?"

"what's the benefit to selling crap when there is enough great stuff to sell and make money on?"

"In regards with how to set a standard if you cant set a standard then you should not evaluate a jersey."

"MEARS has set a hobby standard by evaluation the 75 fisk as an 8"

"if we can go back to the 20ties for H&B how hard would it be to find records from the 70ties?"

i love that one a lot. eric compares the acquisition of records from a company while it still exists to the acquisition of records from a company years and years after it shut its doors. brilliant.

and the piece de resistance:

first: "would a company actually do that 35 plus years ago when there was no collector interest"

then: "If that is the case that the public could order these shirts then wouldn't we see 100 of these jerseys".

my heart goes out to lon. maybe he can get aspirin or tylenol to sponsor him after all this. "tylenol welcomes lon lewis, the man who had to respond to over 20 of eric's posts".

rudy.

[iceman13]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Rudy...great post.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Rob that statement about not being able to tell the difference is based on Lon's theory that retails did exist. Read my statement very carefully ( if customs really did exist). I have not seen any proof of this being the case.

I know the source of the shirt, so I am very confident with it being a gamer. Beantown has followed the thread and he is confident in the shirt as well, he has inspected it in person twice. Going so far as to measure the lettering size on the front of the shirt.

Also Mr. Stall got upset that custom shirts in the 80ties were being sold as game used, but continued to allow select individuals to purchase these shirts? If he was upset why not stop selling them all together? Why not make a statement in regards to it? Why didn't someone interview him for one of the trade magazines?

Stall & Dean still is in business and has a website, I have sent an email asking to see if any employees are still with the company that would have been there during the 70ties.

[no_scammers_allowed]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

This reminds me of another thread that involved 1986&2004Bosox, posting there as Bubba77, on a different game used website regarding some altered Bruins jerseys:

http://www.gameworn.net/cgi-bin/GW/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008686

It's probably worth the full read. I hate to stir the pot with this (I never get involved in these sorts of disputes) but I couldn't stand back and watch him continue to slam Rudy & Lon knowing this isn't the first time he's caused an issue. After all isn't this site about helping other GU collectors avoid pitfalls?

Remember, it's a relatively small hobby and people know each other.

Back to lurking.

[1986&2004Bosox]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

King Lon spent maybe 20 minutes responding and a total of four emails.

You want me to send you the exact email where Lon state's that MEARS knows of the borderless tag issue and has chose to ignore it?

Where he states that borderless and wrong size are tell tale signs to him of a custom? Now Lon changes his stance and say's customs had blue tags as well?

Where he sates that 1974 was a transation year and that 1975 blue borders were in full production? What does full production mean to you?

Come on King you want to defend Lon fine but don't twist his point, don't say that full production does not mean that blue border shirts accoarding to Mr. Lewis are the way shirts should be 1975 to pre 80ties.

McAuliffe went out of business but since it was a product of Stall & Dean as Mr. Lewis has pointed out and Stall & Dean is still around why not start there for proof of these custom orders?

King good luck in your collecting, keep defending Mr. Lewis thats great that he has your support.

He has put a theory out there with numerous flaws and still I am the bad guy. All I have done is point out the contradictions he has made in his statements.

Now you Rudy want to get in to symantics of what full production means? Also if a player had 3 home and road shirts that means on average every 27 games they got a new jersey.

So if these customs were being bought to be worn to games and in softball leagues, and by high schools don't you think a jersey made out of the same material with the same tagging that was not a major league gamer would be destroyed after 32 years? That the guy, girl, kid wearing it would have sent it thru the wash more times than a major league gamer would have been washed?

That unlike a game jersey that was worn by a player that played a full season some where between 27 times if they had 3 shirts home and raod and swithched them out after an equal number of game or 81 if they wore the same shirt the whole season.

Don't you think that those jerseys would be pounded tags and letters falling off, ripped torn etc? But these so called custom, retail, aftermarket jerseys seem to be in perfect condition.

What about a shirt that has no alteration of any kind that has pounded,fadded lettering for team name and numbers but perfect crisp tagging? What determanation do you make on a jersey like that?

Look Lon could be the greatest guy in the world but I will not sit around and let him state one thing in one post and an email and another elsewhere.

All I have asked for from the start is proof of retail orders which I have said take as long as you would like to gather, but don't talk about a 1971 tagged Indians jersey in the Henderson guide and state it is a 1987 shirt as your proof. Right now all I would like for Mr. Lewis to do is clarify his position on the tagging issue, which I have outlined in a previous post.

It is an easy request.

[iceman13]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

This reminds me of another thread that involved 1986&2004Bosox, posting there as Bubba77, on a different game used website regarding some altered Bruins jerseys:

http://www.gameworn.net/cgi-bin/GW/u...c;f=1;t=008686

It's probably worth the full read. I hate to stir the pot with this (I never get involved in these sorts of disputes) but I couldn't stand back and watch him continue to slam Rudy & Lon knowing this isn't the first time he's caused an issue. After all isn't this site about helping other GU collectors avoid pitfalls?

Remember, it's a relatively small hobby and people know each other.

Back to lurking.

The infamous Custom Crafted specials

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

"Where he states that borderless and wrong size are tell tale signs to him of a custom? Now Lon changes his stance and say's customs had blue tags as well?"

lon stated that borderless and wrong size are tell tale signs of a custom. show me where he said borderless and wrong size are the ONLY tell-tale signs of a custom. how is it a change in stance if lon adds information but doesn't modify his original point? if i say "robbery is a crime" and then later i add "and so is murder" am i changing my original stance that robbery is a crime? changing his stance would involve lon saying "ok i was wrong, borderless and wrong size aren't signs of a custom". he simply said 1 thing and then later added information that didn't contradict his original statement.

"Come on King you want to defend Lon fine but don't twist his point, don't say that full production does not mean that blue border shirts accoarding to Mr. Lewis are the way shirts should be 1975 to pre 80ties."

wouldn't twisting his point be exactly what you're doing? that is, affixing your own meaning to "full production"? you accused lon of stating that "all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border". please show me where he said those exact words. you've accused him of saying that and yet i can't find any statement from him that says exactly that.

the truth is i don't know what lon meant by "full production" but unlike you, i wouldn't automatically assume the meaning. he said "full production" and you immediately affix your own interpretation and then accuse others of twisting words?

had i been in your shoes, instead of jumping the gun and assuming what he meant, my first reply to him would've been "lon, when you say "full production" does this mean that mcauliffe never used any borderless tags from '75-'79?". i would've had the common sense to ask lon to clarify his statement rather than assuming what he meant. "full production" is vague.
maybe lon is guilty of being somewhat vague in his original statement but that doesn't get you off the hook for pretending to know what he meant.

"Stall & Dean is still around why not start there for proof of these custom orders?"

excellent question. please let us know what you find out. after all, it's you selling this shirt, not lon or i. i'm just discussing this for interests sake. you're actually making money off this thing. its you who's responsible for doing everything you can to ensure its legitimacy. by the way, there's no reason i should wait 30 days for your results, especially in this age of google and skype. i expect your findings tomorrow. if you don't have them by tomorrow, i can safely assume that you found the records, didn't like what you saw and chose to hide it. don't tell me otherwise because i've got the ability to infer whatever i like. if you won't let me infer things, then i'll accuse you of changing your stance and twisting words.

"All I have done is point out the contradictions he has made in his statements."

no, all if you've done is misinterpret his words and then hold him to your misinterpretations. you keep saying that lon made the "statement that all 1975 jerseys should have the blue border" but i can't find any such statement. the specific statement you accused lon of making doesn't actually exist does it? the only thing that exists is lon stating they were "in full production". to you they're one in the same.

"Now you Rudy want to get in to symantics of what full production means?"

that's what this entire thing centers around! that's the actual phrase that caused all this and to you it's just semantics. "full production" is a vague term. how on earth do you purport to know exactly what lon meant and didn't mean by it if you didn't seek clarification on it? how do you purport to know exactly what "full production" means when i don't know exactly what lon meant? are you a mind-reader? or just someone who assumes without asking for clarification?

"Don't you think that those jerseys would be pounded tags and letters falling off, ripped torn etc? But these so called custom, retail, aftermarket jerseys seem to be in perfect condition."

assuming 100% of all the customs ordered were worn to death. assuming that no fans in boston ever ordered customs of their hometown heroes like yaz, lynn, fisk, and rice in order to hang in their dens for 20 years. in 1993, i ordered a retail canseco to be made up. i didn't order it from a store. i ordered it from a russell distributor 3000 miles away. i wore it for a total of 3 or 4 times, still have it, and it's in mint condition. i don't even think i've ever even washed it.

rudy.

[lund6771]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

Bosox..

You've posted that you have 20+_ years of hobby experience and brokered major deals between dealers and collectors

If that's the case, then why did you post in the Gameworn forum that you are a newbie to collecting?...

Also in the gameworn.net forum you again were CLEARLY lying about the Bruins jerseys...Talking the jerseys up as the second coming of Christ, and also talking about sending pictures, and you didn't even have them yet?

Rabid is definitely the right word

[kingjammy24]

Re: Fred Lynn Red Sox Jersey - Thoughts?

This reminds me of another thread that involved 1986&2004Bosox, posting there as Bubba77, on a different game used website regarding some altered Bruins jerseys:

http://www.gameworn.net/cgi-bin/GW/u...c;f=1;t=008686

in a private mail sent several days ago, mark weimerskirch was discussing this thread and referenced eric by his full name, "eric atkinson". the individual named on gameworn.net is also eric atkinson. i have to think they're the same person.

some gems from eric the guy who's got "25 yrs in the hobby". enjoy:
-----------------------------------------------------------
posted January 09, 2004

- "If he is an expert in the hobby WHY WOULKD HE CALL FAKES GAME ISSUE?"

- "Also what is the difference between game issue and game worn? I am a novice."

- "Was i trying to flip before i owned yes and is that wrong????????"

- "Well you know what auction houses sell BAD crap all day long. Lelands pulls stuff all the time from auction, so does ever other major auction house because errors are made"
----------------------------------------------------------

comments he made recently here:

"I am a newbie with 25 years of collecting.. who has brokered 6 figure deals between private collectors and prominent dealers, I have brought to market some amazing private collections and items"

"..wouldn't major auction houses know this and not make the same mistake for years?"

wow.

rudy.