Carl Yastrzemski bat on E-bay

[MSpecht]

Here is the distinction :

When H & B began using computerized records in 1981, the information contained in those records was more inclusive than had been available on the hand-written order cards that had been used for the previous 50 years. One of the interesting aspects was that the printouts not only contained the orders specifically sent to the player via the player's team, but also contained shipments to other entities that had ordered signature model bats of the specific player, including promotional retail companies (such as Anaconda-Kaye Sports Inc), player's agents and marketing companies (such as John Boggs Associates), former players (such as Hoyt Wilhelm), and similar entities. For the most part, the bats ordered were either the player's pro stock model or, in some instances, a model that the player was commonly associated with. Also, for the most part, these bats were ordered in a specified length, but with no specified weight, as they were being ordered for purposes other that the player's professional use.

Often seen in the records were orders that were invoiced to either "Baseball Promotions" or "Baseball Miscellaneous." The interesting thing about orders invoiced to either of those two accounts was that while they also were often ordered with no specified weight, some orders invoiced to those accounts were ordered, at times, with a specific weight.

Ultimately, between the publication of the first reference book on collecting game used bats (BATS in 1995) and the publication of Vince Malta's new book in 2007, a decision was made that the two types of orders invoiced to Baseball Promotions and Baseball Miscellaneous ( an order with specified weight and an order without specified weight) would be treated separately when considering whether a specific bat was a professional model, or 'something else." Thus, in the Players' Charts section of the book, and in the HOF charts available on the GUU site, you will see entries of orders that were invoiced to Baseball Promotions and Baseball Miscellaneous. Those orders are ones that were ordered and manufactured with a specific model, length, and weight, and therefore are PRESUMED to have been manufactured for a player's personal professional use. Such orders could have been generated from a variety of sources, such as a MLB sponsored post-season tour, or from a H & B representative's decision to provide a player with a few free bats.

To make an informed decision on a potential purchase, a collector would want to have as much information available as possible when considering such a bat. Significant information would include 1) whether the order was documented in the player's records, 2) whether it was shipped to the player (via team) or another entity, 3) whether (if to BB Promotions or BB Miscellaneous) the bat was manufactured to a specific weight, 4) whether the bat model, length, etc was commonly identified (or at least known) ) with the player, and 5) whether specific player game use characteristics were present on the bat.

In the case of the two bats mentioned in this thread, here is the information on Yaz model K48 bats, both outside of the 1980-1983 labeling period and during that period: Yaz first ordered model K48 bats in 1960 (four orders totaling 12 bats -- 34.5 inches / 33.5 and 34.5 ounces.) He followed that up in 1961 with a single order of six K48 bats -- 34.5 inches / 33.5 ounces. That's it until the orders invoiced to Baseball Miscellaneous in the 1980-1983 labeling period. In 1980-1983 the orders of Yaz signature model K48 bats were as follows:

6/3/82 34.5 in / 32 oz Natural Finish 36 bats BB Miscell
9/15/82 34.5 / 32 Natural 6 bats BB Miscell
12/13/82 34.5 / 32 Natural 14 bats BB Miscell
1/12/83 34.5 / 32 Natural 12 bats BB Miscell
3/7/83 35 / 32 Natural 12 bats BB Miscell

The differences between the two bats in this thread are apparent. The first bat, offered on Ebay by Broadway Rick, was not documented in Yaz' personal shipping records and was of a length ( 32.5 inches) that was not only between 1.5 inches and 3.5 inches shorter than any bat documented as having ever been used by Yaz, but was also of a length that is not considered to be a profeessional model bat unless specifically documented in player's records (see Wee Willie Keeler and Tony Gwynn.) The chance that Yaz ever used that bat is about zero.

The second bat, with a PSA/DNA LOA, is documented in Yaz' personal shipping records in a manner presumed to be for his personal professional use, is specific in length, weight, etc to bats documented as ordered by Yaz, and was evaluated as to game use characteristics specifically attributed to Carl Yastrzemski.

Good Luck in future collecting.
Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

NOTE: The information above is taken only from Carl Yastrzemski's personal H & B shipping records. As K48 is one of Yaz' H & B Pro Stock model bats, additional information may be contained in the Boston Red Sox team orders of the period.

[Fraudfinder!!]

Mike,
Thank you for your very informative post on the Yaz bats, it was appreciated.

[2OnBase]

Thank you as well, Mike, for you willingness to answer and help with questions. The interchange is useful, even when disagreements or concerns arise. Given the timing of the orders and the quantity for the Yaz K48 bats in this 1980-83 era, would you believe these to be more for promotional use than Game use? Or, are the quantities and order dates similar to past orders by Yaz?

Also, did the Red Sox order K48 bats with the Yastrzemski signature throughout Yaz's tenure with the team? Any help with regards to quantity, dates, sizes, and/or finishes is appreciated?

Bottom-line, in my opinion the ordering records from the team are extremely important when it comes to determining the potential for consistent utilization by a player for certain models of bats, especially when there are "holes" in the ordering patterns of the player where they have previously demonstrated use and/or sporadic ordering. Why would a player order a bat, when he knew the team would be ordering the same model, size, and finish with their name on it?

Rod

[2OnBase]

Sorry about the multiple requests, Mike. Given the situation, I thought I should summarize my requests for help in order of importance since I am adding an additional one and know your time is valuable/limited. Thank you for whatever responses you can provide. I have a K48 in my possession as well that is 34.75", 31 oz. with the same #8 on the knob that is nearly identical to the PSA/DNA authenticated bat described earlier, without the gobs of pine tar on the handle. I am obviously curious as to the potential of the bat as truly a Yaz gamer given the correspondence in this and other threads.

1) What is the destination of shipment for the Yaz K48 bats ordered in 1982 and depicted in the Reference Guide (Vince Malta's excellent work)?
2) Did the Red Sox order K48 bats with the Yastrzemski signature throughout Yaz's tenure with the team? If so can you please provide information relating to this, especially from 1976 though 83? In particular any help regarding the order quantity, length, weights, and/or finishes is appreciated?

Again, thank you for whatever incite you can provide!

Rod

[MSpecht]

Hi Rod--

Here is the info you are looking for to the extent that it exists in Yaz' personal H & B shipping records.

Regarding the 1982 (and 1983) orders of Yaz signature model K48 bats, there are five orders as documented in my previous post above.




Again, given the perimeters that are set forth in Vince Malta's book, orders to BB Miscell and BB Promotions that are ordered with specified model, length, and weight are presumed to be for the player's professional use.

For comparison purposes, here is a summation of Yaz' orders that went directly to him via the Red Sox in 1982:

Between 2/19/82 and 9/14/82 there are nine documented orders, totaling 119 bats. Of those, all bats are model C271 -- 107 bats are 34.5 inches and 12 are 35 inches -- all are 33 oz -- and finishes are mainly Hickory, with a few Foster (dark) finish.

I do not have the Sox' team order records from 1976 through 1983. However, the common practice was for the team to order significant quantaties of "assorted models / assorted lengths , weights" bats that were available for use by any player in the organization from Spring Training through the season, Major league, Minor League, whatever. These stock bats have become known as Team Index Bats and were often sent as signature models of the team's players who were under contract to H & B. In Yaz' case, his signature name would have appeared on many of the K48 and C271 models ordered by the Red Sox, as those models were H & B Pro Stock models that ofter carried Yaz' name when filling Index orders, Minor League orders, college orders, retail orders, etc. Those bats would also have been 'around' and available for use by Yaz (as well as any player0 if the specifications and model were to his liking. The most notable examples of this situation occurs with Mantle K55 bats of the 1960s.

Here is the specific history of Yaz' use of K48 bats, as documented in his personal records: his first order was in early (April?) 1960, and continued through early 1961. During that period there were six orders totaling approximately 20 bats of the 105 or so bats ordered in 1960 and 1961. Thats it until the BB Miscell order(s) noted above.

Your question regarding whether a player might not order a certain model he intended to use because 'he knew the team would be ordering it,' does not appear, in my opinion, to be supported by the records, as throughout the referenced period (early 1980s), Yaz consistently ordered C271 bats, even though they (presumably) would have been also contained in the Red Sox index order, likely with Yaz' signature.

From 1976 through 1983 it is clear that his models of choice were R206, D113, C243 and C271, with lengths ranging between 34 inches to 36 inches. In the early 1980s, virtually all of the finished ordered by Yaz were dark. Does the possibility exist that he used some K48 models during that period? Sure -- but, as with most game used equipment, the comfort level is often not so black-and-white, and is determined by degree of probability. With a model not documented in his personal records (for the specific labeling period) the comfort level increases as each attribute matches that which is known/documented. It is then up to the individual collector to determine at what point he is comfortable enough to open his wallet, and how far.

Good Luck in future collecting.

Mike jackitout7@aol.com

[2OnBase]

Mike! I sincerely appreciate your work on this! I will mull over what you have provided, but wished for you to know that your assistance is much appreciated.

Rod

[thegoodz15]

dear justin, the yaz bat you are looking at is way to short as will show the records i have been collecting since 1984......it just so happens i have a yaz bat on ebay under thegoodz15....i have 100% feedback and the high bigger gets it period....the bat is 35inches which yaz usually swung....plus it has a killer autograph....have fun collecting scott

[mwbosoxfan]

dear justin, the yaz bat you are looking at is way to short as will show the records i have been collecting since 1984......it just so happens i have a yaz bat on ebay under thegoodz15....i have 100% feedback and the high bigger gets it period....the bat is 35inches which yaz usually swung....plus it has a killer autograph....have fun collecting scott

Scott, I just looked at the bat you have on eBay. It has no model number on the barrel. From discussions in this forum, I was under the impression that bats with only "GENUINE" and no model number were generally considered souvenir bats. For my own knowledge, Mike Specht or BMH, if you have some input on this I would be interested to know. Thanks, John